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Talk:Greeks in Albania/Archive 2

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Latest comment: 1 year ago by Cinadon36 in topic No edit summary
Archive 1 Archive 2

Use of irredentist flag in infobox

Latest comment: 6 years ago69 comments6 people in discussion

This is coming after it has been decided in project-wide discussions that we keep pictures out of infoboxes in most cases because of issues of "representativeness". Look Khirurg I understand that maybe for some Greeks in Greece who had roots in Albania the flag can be a symbol of pride but not only in Albania but even elsewhere among those familiar with the issues it is connected to irredentism (the North Epirote sort). In Albania the North Epirote episodes were remembered mostly by the slaughtering of Albanian patriots and even ethnic Albanian not-so-patriotic individuals as well. Whether that memory is accurate is for historians to debate, but that is the public memory. It is hard for me to see how having this flag here is ethical-- if anything it comes off as anti-Greek, contrary to the wishes of those who support the strengthening of pluralistic civil society in Albania, it portrays one minority (Greeks) as an irredentist fifth column. Please give this some thought. --Calthinus (talk) 19:02, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

There is nothing "extremist" about the flag. True, some people don't like it, but that can't be helped. But it is widely used by the Greeks with roots in Albania, and I find your comment that its inclusion is "unethical" and "anto-Greek" to be utterly absurd. There are "people" that find the Greek flag itself "hateful". Should we remove it from the Greece article in the interests of building a "pluralistic civil society"? You also fail to make any policy based arguments as to why it should not be included. The decision to keep pictures out of infoboxes was regarding individuals, not flags, e.g. the article on Circassians includes a flag, and so do those of many many ethnic groups. Khirurg (talk) 19:26, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Okay, well we will have to disagree on that. I have made clear in this case that the source of my complaint is not only wiki policy and I'm going to continue being honest. The Circassian flag is a bit of a different scenario as it has a deep historical symbolism for the Circassian diaspora, as it marked their last stand before they were all deported -- the North Epirote diaspora does not have such a group trauma of that scale, unlike Greeks from Pontus. Surely we would not put the flag of the Principality of Pindus on a page about Aromanians in Greece, would we? Because, what about all the Vlachs who stayed in Greece rather than moving to Romania, and view themselves as part of Greek society? I understand that fewer Vlachs supported the PoP but the point is not about numbers, it's about those ethnics who are not irredentists--Calthinus (talk) 19:41, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
The "level of trauma" suffered by a community is irrelevant to this argument though. Because the Greeks in Pontus suffered more, using their flag in their infobox is ok, but here it isn't? What kind of logic is that? As far as I know, there aren't many Greeks in Northern Epirus, who, given the choice, would rather be part of Albania instead of Greece. The example with the Aromanians is also a poor one, because few of them supported the PoP, and they now overwhelmingly identify as Greek. Khirurg (talk) 22:22, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Khirurg, I think you're misinterpreting what I said. The "trauma" for the Circassian diaspora was from a pivotal event that all of them experienced-- hence it, and the flag linked to it, are central to their group identity. The same cannot be said for the Greeks of Albania. That's all I was saying.
Furthermore, this statement -- there aren't many Greeks in Northern Epirus, who, given the choice, would rather be part of Albania instead of Greece -- is a rather bold one. There are indeed many ethnic Greeks in Albania who are not at all fans of irredentism. Whether Greeks in Albania are more like Vlachs in Greece or, perhaps, a bit like Arabs in Israel (indeed there have been recent attempts to connect them as a whole ethnic group to certain national irredentist ideologies...) or Hungarians in Romania or Turks in Bulgaria, it doesn't change the fact that you can't just generalize support for a political ideology to a whole group consisting of hundreds of thousands of individuals. To do so, anyhow, is a huge NPOV breach. The flag is fine to have on the page (after all it was historically relevant), but not the infobox. --Calthinus (talk) 23:44, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Not misinterpreting anything The Circassian flag is a bit of a different scenario as it has a deep historical symbolism for the Circassian diaspora, as it marked their last stand before they were all deported -- the North Epirote diaspora does not have such a group trauma of that scale. It seems that your reasoning is that it's ok to use the flag at Circassians because they suffered trauma but not here because the Northern Epirotes did not suffer trauma. I can't accept this. As for support for joining Greece among Northern Epirotes, I really wonder if a plebiscite were held in southern Albania, what the results would be. Khirurg (talk) 23:59, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
I just explained what my reasoning was above. I didn't make it clear in the first post it seems. I spelled it out above. I will make it clear again: group trauma has been a source of group identity for diaspora Circassians (>90% of all Circassians) and the same is not true of Greeks in Albania. As for a plebiscite, yes I wonder too -- but this is not our job in building an encyclopedia. The flag being placed in the infobox is not neutral. Political views attributed to a group belong in the body, not a flag representing only one position in the infobox. Please remove it. --Calthinus (talk) 00:04, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
My impression from the literature is that Northern Epirotes do have a group identity, and plenty of it. That's why they call themselves "Northern Epirotes", and why we have this article. I also fail to see how including the flag in the infobox is not neutral. This is a matter of opinion and I happen to disagree with you. Khirurg (talk) 01:12, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
You have formed a wrong impression. Gerasimos Konidaris says that This area called 'Northern Epirus' by many Greeks. "Many" does not represent all or most. Arqile Berxholli says that Another factor contributing to the lower rate of increase in the Greek minority is the internal movement of the ethnic Greeks. The women who marry non-Greeks outside the minority areas often give up their Greek nationality. The same thing can be said about the ethnic Greeks, especially those with university training, who would be employed outside their villages. In particular, those working in large cities like Tirana very often would not declare their Greek nationality. The concept of Northern Epirus is used by a part of Greeks in Albania, others have a broader Greek identity or are in an ongoing process of assimilation into Albanian society. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:37, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Ktrimi991 hopefully this dispute is resolved given your above post. If not, I think arguing here is not the best of for any of the three of us. Instead, I recommend the dispute resolution noticeboard. --Calthinus (talk) 17:27, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Seizing on the "many" in Konidaris and then nitpicking that into ""Many" does not represent all" is not a valid argument. In fact it undermines the argument for opposing the flag as representative. There is no requirement that every single Greek in Albania feel that flag represents them to have it in the infobox. But the fact that many do makes it representative of the community and hence appropriate for the infobox. I really don't see what's the issue here. The flag is widely used by the community and representative of it. Khirurg (talk) 18:46, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Tell me, should we have the Confederate flag in the infobox a hypothetical page for "Dixie Americans"? Look Khirurg I did say something bad before and for that I apologize -- it is not my right to judge, in edit summaries, Vorioepirotism -- or Confederatism -- as "extremist". However, even if it is a minority of Greeks that oppose it, it is still wrong to associate a political opinion with an entire group, as I hope my Confederate example has illustrated... --Calthinus (talk) 17:22, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
the fact that many do makes it representative of the community. That's the point, "many" is many and does represent many rather than most or all. See an unsuccessful attempt some sections above to rename this article Northern Epirotes, that attempt did not reach its goal due to opposition from other editors. Northern Epirus is a term used by nationalists (Jacques Lévy 2001, p. 193) that stems from religious fanaticism (Spiro Rusha 1999, p.8). Greeks in Albania have varying positions on their identity regarding Albania (as elaborated by Arqile Berxholli), depending on their background and personal experiences. It is pointless to continue this discussion where you have brought zero sources. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:21, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
Though the historical flag of Northern Epirus hasn't today an official status it should have a place in this article. It seems reasonable to have it since the article deals about N. Epirotes.Alexikoua (talk) 21:04, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
You added the flag again, together with some quote that does not back its inclusion in the infobox. It should have a place somewhere else in the article, e.g. the History section. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:25, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
As Khirurg noted there are several examples that non-official modern symbols are illustrated in the infobox of a group. For example I still wonder whats the status of the flag used in the Arbëreshë people infobox. Apart from the OR issues of this so-called Arbereshe flag the reader can conclude that this is an irredentist symbol (without any historical use in this case contrary to the N. Epirote flag).Alexikoua (talk) 22:53, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
Other stuff exists, do not redirect the discussion. The Arbereshe people is another article, which I and maybe other editors here have never showed interest in. The Arbereshe flag is not connected with some irredentism like that of Northern Epirus does, it is a cultural flag rather than a nationalist one. If you want some related examples, the flag of the Republic of Ilirida and that of Chams are not present in the infoboxes of the target people. The sources above show that the concept of Northern Epirus is not used by all Greeks in Albania, as it as a concept is nationalistic and stems from religious fanaticism. Nationalist symbols differ from cultural ones. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:16, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
@Khirug:, separate to uses by the diaspora the flag used by the Circassians is the official and present flag of the Adegyea Republic, a Circassian statelet located within the Russian Federation. All these reasons you have gone on about it being a irredenist flag do not suffice, otherwise the Russian state itself would not approve. @Alexikoua:, as with Khirug, you present another strawman argument about the Arbereshe, that flag was never used for nationalist/irredentist purposes nor has the Italian government had problems with the Arbereshe community with those issues. With the flag you say its historical, ok i agree then it should be in the history section in the part that refers to the whole Northern Epirus issue of the early 20th century when this flag was used. Khirug you make the claim about Northern Epirotes and their trauma, yet in the context of trauma in Albania this flag represents Greek nationalism and a symbol of hellenisation of non Greek speaking Orthodox people, Greek irredentism/separatism and with some groups associated extremism. The Albanian state has not allowed legal usage of the flag. There were attempts some time ago by some editors on the Republic of Ilirida Wiki page to add fringe Albanian irredentist symbols in Macedonia associated with the so called "Illirida movement" of a few crackpot former politicians and their supporters in the Republic of Macedonia. Those were removed from the page [1]. How is this flag here, one used by Greek nationalists and fringe extremists (often from the right wing) the official ethno-cultural flag of Greeks in Albania -considering that the official Greek flag is flown in Albania in places where they live?Resnjari (talk) 12:45, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
The flag of N.epirus should be part of an article dedicated to Northern Epirotes. If its considered as irredentist by some other group thats not an argument against inclusion. I've also pointed that if we need to correct some infobox flags about Albania related groups thats not the article that needs urgent correction.Alexikoua (talk) 13:31, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
@Alexikoua:, i'm not saying about removing the flag completely from the page, just that it ought to be in the appropriate section, placed in its historical context and not the infobox. This flag is not recognised by the Albanian state as an official Greek symbol of the minority, nor has the Greek state pushed for the Albanian state to have it recognised as such. When it is raised in the country by fringe nationalist elements of the Greek minority, it is pointed out in media as an act of irredentism and extremism in Albania (i.e a recent example in Krane [2]).Resnjari (talk) 14:15, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Symbols and flags that are widely used by a specific group and have been officially recognized during parts of the 20th century are fine stay in infobox (if there was once an officially recognized Chameria flag during Ottoman/or later times feel free to place it there). The argument that the flag is negatively portrayed in some Albania media today isn't enough for removal. However, I won't object removal from infobox provided that a project-wide discussion agrees on the use of modern official flags/symbols only.Alexikoua (talk) 09:41, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
@Alexikoua:, there is no Chameria flag and Cham Albanians who espouse a Albanian identity use the official Albanian flag as a ethno-cultural symbol in Albania. Anyway, no need for further strawman arguments. This Northern Epirus flag has no official recognition on either side of the border and is used by Greek nationalists, Greek right wingers and fringe elements along with those Greeks who sympathize with irredentism about a 'Northern Epirus cause'. Moreover the Greek state has not lobbied Albania for official recognition of the flag as a representative symbol of the Orthodox Greek speaking minority in Albania. The flag ought to be the section about history placing it in its historical context. The Orthodox Greek speaking minority uses the official Greek flag as its ethno-cultural symbol in Albania. Otherwise by having this particular flag in the infobox, its implying that Orthodox Greek speaking people in Albania have this particular emblem associated with nationalism and irredentism as being representative of them as a group.Resnjari (talk) 09:59, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Another attempt of yours to redirect the discussion. The Northern Epirus flag does represent some past attempts to change the border between the two countries, religiously fanatical and nationalistic ideas of some people of present times and revisionist websites rather than all Greeks in Albania. It is its nature: nationalistic, religiously fanatical, and exclusive to some people that makes the flag inappropriate in the infobox. The flags of other people ought to be discussed on the target talk pages. You cite Other stuff exists when it interests you, respect it when it does not. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:23, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

(unindent) Colorful adjectives ("religious fanatical") are not arguments. Rather, it just shows WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. The flag is widely used by Northern Epirotes, and that's all that matters. There are no policy-based arguments against it. Khirurg (talk) 04:28, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

@Khirug: No one said that parts of the Orthodox Greek speaking minority don't use this flag, but those that do are in the nationalist, right wing camp. Its use among Greek nationalists, right wingers and extremists is noted. Those wanting the flag in the infobox just presented one strawman argument after another, all debunked too. Last one checked Wikipedia does not promote nationalism. I mean if that flag is in infobox, there are many communities like ethnic Macedonians in Greece (that identify as such) that use the star of Vergina on a red background as their symbol and lets not forget the ethnic Turks of Greece and their symbols. Just to confirm it would be appropriate to add those symbols to the following pages about those ethnic communities of Greece or are they're going to be WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT about how in those contexts those symbols are nationalsisitic, but this Greek nationalist symbol is allowed to fly?Resnjari (talk) 11:04, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
Some Albania media tend to present as irrendetist/fanatical/propaganda/threat to Albanian state etc. the use of non-Albanian symbols, not even the N.Epirote flag but the Greek flag too by members of the Greek minority. This doesn't mean that a specific group should not be linked with its historical flag which was officially recognized during part of the 20th century.Alexikoua (talk) 21:10, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
@Alexikoua:, the flag is a irredentist symbol used by Greek nationalists, right wingers and other fringe extremist types (i.e Golden Dawn) who support 'Northern Epirus liberation causes' with those kinds of tendencies. Albania does not for instance disallow minorities to fly ethno-cultural symbols. As you can see yourself in that picture in the article about Krane, the official Greek flag is allowed [3]. Albania even allows the use of the star of Vergina with a red background for use by the ethnic Macedonian minority for their municipal emblems [4], a symbol that ethnic Macedonians prefer even in the Republic of Macedonia over the current flag. This flag is from a particular time and place and that should be reflected in the article within the history section and not the info box, because if this is the road where heading, like i said, there are Turkish and ethnic Macedonian symbols for Greece that can be added.Resnjari (talk) 22:16, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
No, it is not considered to be such only by Albanians. Consult the academic sources I posted earlier. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:33, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
@Resnjari: I see you agree that the issue should be viewed as part of a general approach. It appears obvious that it warrants a generalized project-wide discussion (as it occurred in the past about the pictures of notable personalities in infoboxes). As for your latest argument I see some OR: the mayor Dervican was sentenced to prison for raising the Greek flag [[5]] & the raising of the Greek flag is a controversial issue in Albania (or according to some Albania media) [[6]] this can't be an argument for removal here in wikipedia. In our case the NE flag is historically connected with a specific community and significant events of its past. On the other hand nationalists tend to use their national symbols for their own purposes, off course most members of this community are not irredentists.Alexikoua (talk) 21:10, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
@Alexikoua:, regarding Albania, the examples you give relates to the early 1990s almost 3 decades ago. Moreover it pertains to the official Greek flag, not the Northern Epirus irredentist banner. Greeks in Albania viewed the official Greek flag as a ethno-cultural symbol and campaigned to use it. The Albanian media report shows pictures of the Greek flag flying in a Greek village. The the Northern Epirus flag that is the issue. My point has been that this flag, ought to be in the history section placed in its historical context. And please lets not sugar coat this, the flag is used by Greek extremists for irredentist 'gatherings' by nationalist fringe Greek right wingers and like minded sympathizers. Examples being Christos Pappas, a Greek nationalist parliamentarian and right winger of the extremist Nazi political movement of the Golden Dawn and others supporting the nationalist 'Northern Epirus cause' [7], [8], [9], [10], [11] . Even the Greek organisation Omonia in Albania boycotted the 100 year anniversary celebrations of the Northern Epirus event which was held by some to commentate [12]. The Northern Epirus issue is part of the Greek nationalist right wing fringe.Resnjari (talk)
Wikipedia policy regarding infoboxes is not based on what a) The Albanian state recognizes or allows, or b) what various users consider "fringe extremist". Rather the only criterion for including an image in the infobox is that it be representative of the community that the article describes. In this case, the flag is representative of the Northern Epirote community. Until such a time as someone can show the opposite, its placement in the infobox is appropriate. Khirurg (talk) 21:28, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
@Khirurg:, so then Turkish and ethnic Macedonian symbols representing those minorities in Greece are ok? I mean, if that's your final position, this discussion of course can be used as a reference point for those symbols. No need then to cry wolf in future about "nationalism".Resnjari (talk) 22:19, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
Each of these cases is to be decided on a case-by-case basis at the appropriate article talkpage between interested users. There is no one-size-fits-all. You are more than welcome to bring this up at any article talkpage you like and we can take it from there. Khirurg (talk) 22:38, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
@Khirurg:, "case by case basis" is contradicting your earlier comment about there being nothing in Wikipedia. You can't have your cake and eat it too.Resnjari (talk) 22:40, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. If you feel there is some symbol or flag that should go into some article's infobox, you are more than welcome to proceed at the tp of the relevant article. Khirurg (talk) 00:36, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
@Khirurg:, with ethnic Macedonians of Greece (the ones that identify as such) its the flag of the Vergina with a red background, the flag that used to belong to the state of Macedonia until it was forced to change it and that is the flag Macedonians use, well ones from Aegean or Greek Macedonia in the diaspora etc.Resnjari (talk) 00:54, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
Okay, "case-by-case" basis is a thing I can get behind. In this case, I think I as well as Resnjari, Ktrimi991 and Alexikoua have all indicated in some way they would be wiling to accept a solution where the flag is on the page but not in the infobox. I have moved the flag into the appropriate "North Epirus" section. I hope this works for everyone? Honestly this argument is not going to lead to more quality articles on wiki which I think is all of our goals, instead it's just a waste of time. So I hope placing the flag into the North Epirus section can end this so we can get back to, you know, productivity and constructiveness. --Calthinus (talk) 04:15, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I disagree. The article body not only does not mention the Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus, it doesn't even have a history section. As for getting back to productive editing, nothing and nobody is preventing anyone from doing so. Khirurg (talk) 04:18, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
We all have limited time and this flag affair is incredibly petty and doesn't help improve wikipedia one bit. All that text above is time wasted. I thought I could end this. Alas, I was naive, as usual. --Calthinus (talk) 04:20, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I don't disagree. I just feel it is an appropriate image for the infobox, and I think it is better placed there than in the body text, although there is nothing wrong with that either. Khirurg (talk) 04:28, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Obviously we look at the issue with different eyes but I'd rather move on from that. Resnjari and Ktrimi both indicated above that it was the placement in the infobox that bothered them most (that is true for myself as well); you and Alexi have stressed the relevance of the flag to the page -- surely a natural compromise is keeping the flag on the page, just not in the infobox -- a natural place is a section that is, after all, titled "Northern Epirus". This page lacks a History section entirely; that should be fixed, maybe I will do it sometime but I am busy. For now, please Khirurg, let's end this pettiness, settle for the natural compromise and show it's possible to get along despite differences in personal views. That's what Balkan topics need most anyhow.--Calthinus (talk) 04:51, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I am open to compromise, however I would like an image in the infobox. Can you suggest an appropriate image for the infobox. So far I think the flag is the best option. Khirurg (talk) 07:39, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
@Calthinus: Yep, it is short: that flag can not stay there as it implies that Greeks on Albania are a fanatic rather than an ethnic and linguistic group. That flag can stay somewhere else, no other flag can stay in the infobox. The infoboxes do not contain flags of coutries, such as Albania, Greece, Macedonia, Serbia etc. Hence, no flag in the infobox. Ktrimi991 (talk) 09:43, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I agree with @Ktrimi991:. @Calthinus:, I had to deal with a similar issue on the Ilirida page and it was a similar time wasting exercise - your compromise solution here is fine. Anyway, the Human rights organisation like Omonia fought to have the official Greek flag as a ethno-cultural symbol be representative of the community and not this flag (in sources even provided by Alexikoua). @Khirurg: if you want to have a image in the infobox here is one showing the Greek minority doing a ethno-cultural activity (polyphonic singing) in contemporary times [13]. Its neutral and shows Greeks of Albania in a positive light.Resnjari (talk) 10:44, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
(ignore trolling by Ktrimi) Off course the flag of N.Epirus can't be simply labeled as "irredentist" or something close to it. Flags can be also used by nationalist element, but this isn't a reason to avoid their use. Scholarship tends to avoid the terminology given by Calthinus above. According to Tara Ashley O’Brien: After Greek troops had left the newly acquired Albanian territory, in accordance with the Florence agreement, a pro-Greek party in the south declared the autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus. 146 The flag created for the new state reveals the combination of Greek and Albanian national symbols. The Epirote flag used the colors of the Greek flag, blue and white, but was surmounted by the double-headed black eagle, a symbol of Albanian nationalism.. Also per Winnifrith: The Republic of Northern Epirus had blue-and-white colour flag, surmounted by a double-headed black eagle (pointing ambiguously both to Skanderbeg and Byzantium).. Wikipedia is based on historical scholarship, cheap newspapers should be avoided.Alexikoua (talk) 16:12, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
@Alexikoua: in case you missed it, your sources all point to the flag being used at a particular time for a secessionist movement. For someone who over the years has used Greek media to make their case and point, your claim about "cheap newspapers" is intesting and maybe that's your view of Albanian media, however Albanian media keeps an eye on Golden Dawn rallies, considering that some are about Northern Epirus irredendist claims. Just to be precise Golden Dawn is Greek nationalist far right party with Nazi overtones and that is the view from outside Greece, yet alone from within Greece. That some everyday folks decide to march in its rallies is their business, but others watch (i.e the media) and those rallies get noted. To bad if they don't like it getting noted, maybe they should not have been there in the first place mixing with the Golden Dawn crowd. And at those rallies that Northern Epirus flag gets waved a lot.Resnjari (talk) 16:49, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I am fine with Alexikoua's placement of the flag below the infobox. @Resnjari: That's a good suggestion, thanks. Khirurg (talk) 16:19, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
@Khirurg:, as i was saying in previous comments to @Calthinus:and @Ktrimi991: the flag is applicable to this section Albanian state (1912–1991) of the article where the protocol of Corfu is cited, so like this its in its historical context and we don't have this mess.Resnjari (talk) 16:49, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Its hard to believe that this can be part of a subsection in education. Minahan also points that this is the flag of the Epirote national movement, thus it would be fine to stay in population section.Alexikoua (talk) 17:11, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
@Alexikoua:, its not hard, if you want we can rename the section to History and Education. Its the main part of the article that that cites the Protocol of Corfu. The flag needs to placed in the section about historical issues, so it is in its historical context. I will say agian that in the sources you provided Greek minority rights organisation campaigned to the right to use the official Greek flag as their ethno-cultural symbol, not this flag, not to mention that Omonia has stayed away from any Northern Epirus 100 year commemorations. You have Minahan and i have a whole host of sources citing fringe elements from the Greek minority who now are in Greece (pictured with the Golden Dawn crowd and parts of its leadership) in rallies for the 'Northern Epirus cause'. If the flag does not get placed in the historical section, its other uses may also need to be cited in the article via those sources for important context.Resnjari (talk) 17:52, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Resnjari, apart from those "cheap newspapers", academic books are presented. They all are good sources that show what is very visible. And yes, the flag below the infobox is like the flag in the infobox. Some users might fall for it and believe that Greeks in Albania are a group that supports ideas of irredentism that stem from religious fanaticism. There next to the pic of the revolt would be good. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:21, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
@Ktrimi991: as the old saying goes, pictures say a thousand words. Those "cheap newspapers" have documented the flag's use by far right groups like the Golden Dawn. I agree with your concerns about the Greek minority and the impression it might give about all being lumped as supporting such things. Omonia, a prominent Greek Human rights organisation and political party in Albania stayed away from 100 year Norther Epirus commemorations. This flag in contemporary times has been used by extreme right wing fringe elements, many times prominently in recent years. The part where the pic of the revolt is, my concern is there is no mention of the Protocal of Corfu and it kind of leaves it in a similar position of being in a area within the article without context at the moment. By having the flag in part of the article that places it in its historical context it becomes a neutral image.Resnjari (talk) 17:52, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I got your point. What do you exactly suggest? What part of the article is the best for the flag? Should we add some more content to the article to give context and then place the flag next to the new content? Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:00, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
@Ktrimi991:, as i said to @Khirug before in this sub section: Albanian state (1912–1991) would be best as it mentions the Corfu Protocol. There is also room in that section for image to be placed.Resnjari (talk) 18:03, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Good. I give full support to the idea. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:07, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
In the "Education" section? You've got to be kidding. No way. Khirurg (talk) 18:15, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
@Khirurg: its the only part of the article that mentions the Corfu Protocal and gives historical context.Resnjari (talk) 18:20, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Good, no flag in the article. That section should actually be improved as it is mostly about some "persecution" and "provocation". Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:24, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Aaaaaand the true motivations come out at last. At first it was "I'm ok with the flag, just not in the infobox", then it became "I want the flag as far down the article as possible, even in a section where it doesn't really make sense", to finally "Good, no flag in the article". It goes to show that it is impossible and pointless to have any kind of discussion with users that see every attempt at compromise as weakness and keep producing more and more unreasonable demands. Have a nice day. Khirurg (talk) 18:48, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
@Khirurg:, what motivations are you refering to? The flag is problematic. Some don't want it at all in article and others do. Both sides have shown something either way on the flag. In the end, the flag is a historic banner (and by treating that way), placing it in a part of the article that refers to its historical context (i.e Corfu Protocol) makes it neutral removing any issues while still having its current caption. Otherwise whats the alternative ? The image stays where it is. But then it is in a part of the article where there is no historical context for it. The other way to address that would keep the image where it is, but additional sources to the caption about other usage could be added. Then one side will disagree call POV and so will the other, it goes down the road of editing warring and bla, bla, bla in the forums of which those not involved will be like: here is another idiotic Balkan dispute. This discussion can be done and dusted by having the flag placed in an area that gives historical context thereby making it neutral.Resnjari (talk) 19:00, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Well, this has been disappointing to say the least. If you think others view compromise as "weakness" well you are just hurting yourself, really. Technically, the long-standing WP:CONS version was ... without hte flag. At all. The world was still turning before this started... --Calthinus (talk) 19:31, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Yes, very much so. The moment Alexikoua and I compromised about not having the flag in the infobox, the demands became "move the flag all the way down to the bottom of the article", and eventually, "no flag at all". Yup, disappointing to say the least. Khirurg (talk) 19:53, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Khirurg I"m not responsible for any of what happened above after I posted and frankly I didn't read it all as I have better things to do. I've made it very clear about where I want the flag. I want it in section titled "Northern Epirus". Where it is right now, it basically looks like it is de facto in the infobox-- not really a compromise. Placing it in the Northern Epirus section -- the first section on the page after the lede is not the bottom of the page. If you accept this I will revert attempts to change it. Do we have a deal? --Calthinus (talk) 20:00, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I agree @Calthinus:. @Khirurg:, my position was about placing the flag in an area that refers to some historical context so the image is neutral in the page. The comprise was on having the flag in the article over objections of not having it in the article. Otherwise additional sources are needed to explain the flag and its usage if it remains where it is.Resnjari (talk) 20:03, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Good choice of spot on the flag @Calthinus:. I'm ok with where it is now -solves the issue of context somewhat.Resnjari (talk) 20:20, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

My two cents here -- The flag by itself is not irredendist. That it is used by irredendist groups, does not make everyone using the flag an irredendist or the very flag itself a symbol of irredendism, nor makes the arguments of certain editors here who are asking for its removal, valid. Second, the flag is used by many people in the minority, and although it is not the official symbol representing the Northern Epirote minority, it still is a historic symbol associated with the minority. Historic symbols ≠ official symbols. If the flag cannot be on the infobox itself, then at least it can and has to be part of the article as it is one of the very few flags the minority has associated itself with. Other editors here may have different views on this, but Wikipedia is about facts as far as I know, and it is important that they agreed in letting the flag stay on the article. -- ❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 09:18, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

@SilentResident:, the flag in contemporary times is associated with those peoples supporting irredendist causes, one today used by Greek nationalists and other right wing Greek Nazi affiliated groups like the Golden Dawn and of course Greek nationalist sympathizers who support extremist 'Northern Epirus causes' (i.e as reported in media: [14], [15], [16], [17], [18]). Whether or not some editors want to face those facts or not is up to them. The main reason for having this flag in the article is due to it having been used at a particular time by the Greek minority in a official capacity -one that is non existent today. Its why i refered to it being placed in the article in a area that has some reference to a historical context so it becomes a neutral image. Additionally Greek organisations in Albania like Omonia campaigned in the early 1990s to have permission to use the official Greek flag as a ethno-cultural symbol, not this flag. Nor has the Greek government ever lobbied Albania for allowance of this flag to be used as a representative symbol of the Orthodox Greek speaking minority in Albania.Resnjari (talk) 15:58, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

@SR The issue was not having the flag on the article. It was "have it somewhere else than the infobox or do not have have it at all". The discussion above apparently concluded with a "compromise". It was not a compromose because nobody was against having it on the article. Ktrimi991 (talk) 10:07, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
So no one minds about the flag staying in the article? This is a good step forward from the edit wars of the past days, where the one side attempted to remove the flag completely from the article, and I am happy for this. I hope it is made clear that no one is going to remove the flag as future edits by POV editors may again try remove the flag using the same arguments as you did (i.e. is irredendist, etc) and it has to be made clear what the consensus is here. And, @Resnjari:, @Ktrimi991:, I suggest that you both avoid any more edit revert wars, because this article, like the rest, is subject to WP:ARBMAC discretionary sanctions, as you probably know aldready. -- ❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 17:46, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
@SilentResident:, as pointed by @Calthinus: the northern epirote banner has similarities with the confederate flag, used by secessionists during a particular period of time in history. The northern epirote banner in contemporary times has also acquired additional meanings and used by Greek extremist and nationalist right wing elements (i.e as reported in media: [19], [20], [21], [22], [23]). The flag is ok in the article provided it is in an area where historical context is reflected otherwise issues will persist like before. Thank you for the reminder about ARBMAC, as all are covered by it even editors like yourself. Best.Resnjari (talk) 17:55, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Misrepresentation of sources in regards to the number of Greeks in Albania

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

In the fourth paragraph of the article, someone has written "The total resident Greek population in Albania, both historically and presently is around 300,000 by modest estimates."

In the actual source it says "Most Greek sources, however, claim a Greek minority figure of 250–300,000. Yet this could only be realistically achieved if we include Orthodox Albanians as well as the Vlach community, who are also Orthodox by faith."

How is this a "modest estimate" when the source itself says this number is unrealistic? Not to mention there are no estimates where 300,000 is considered "modest", even among Greek nationalist circles.

I see one user, User:Dr.K., has reverted another users attempt to remove this. He did not give a reason. I would be interested to know why, because had he read the source he would have seen that the source and what the Wikipedia article state have scant to do with one another.

I will be editing this out, but want to make sure it isn't reverted without explanation again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Procakes (talk • contribs) 14:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Total Population Controversy

As noted in this article and many others, both Albania and Greece hold different views re: total population of the Greek communities of Albania. They also use different definitions. However, it is important to note that the number 250,000 to 350,000 is often used in sources, particularly historically, to generalise the total population. This of course does not take to account migration, censuses, diaspora etc. It is worth looking at ALL ranges from different sources when trying to come up with a possible number. Albania does not collect ethnicity on censuses, but nationality/ID documentation and Greece has had an extended definition of who constitutes an ethnic Greek from Albania.

No edit summary

Latest comment: 1 year ago6 comments3 people in discussion

No edits summary was provided for this change [24] (2009), which constitutes one of many POV pushes editors used to do. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 16:15, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

This is a revert to the stable version. In fact the one that wished to change the stable version needs to explain why the change is warranted.There is no POV at all since Northern Epirus is closely related with this ethnic group. Alexikoua (talk) 01:35, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

I justified it several times! You just decided to ignore it and called for consensus in order to maintain the status quo. That is not fair, considering that much of this article was written by you 11 eleven years ago and you sistematically prevented anyone from editing it. You might want to read WP:5P3. Edits like this one [25] do not need consensus since you have been failing to provide a source for more than 13 years now. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 05:43, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi FierakuiVërtet, can you pls explain it once more or link to your explanation? As I see it now, I can not spot any problem. Thanks! Cinadon36 10:20, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

@Cinadon36: I presume you are talking about this specific edit[26]. The internal link Northern Epirus is already present in the first lines of the Lead section and in the "Northern Epirus" section. Therefore, we have three equal internal links and a whole section about it. Isn't this redundant?

Besides, @Alexikoua: is reverting other edits without even providing a good justifcation. Like this one [27]. You can check it by yourself. It is on the internet. Enver Hoxha and the motive "in order to establish control" are not present in the U.S Report on Human Rights 1994. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 19:23, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Valid point FierakuiVërtet. Cinadon36 04:04, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

External links modified

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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