Talk:Greece–Turkey relations/GA2
GA Review edit
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Reviewer: MrLinkinPark333 (talk · contribs) 03:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello! Thank you for submitting this article to GAN. Looking through this article, I've found the following issues:
Verification issues - Small uncited parts edit
*Diplomatic missions: Both bullet points. Response: Citiations added for each consulate. Elias (talk) 04:38, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
*Background - Greece and Ottoman Empire relations: 1822–1923: 1 sentence in paragraph 1 and 3 Response: Two citations added and text expanded on otherwise with detail and wikipedia pages rather than uncited summary sentence Elias (talk) 23:14, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
*History - Initial relations between Greece and Turkey: 1 sentence and first bullet point in paragraph 6 Response: First sentence deleted. First bullet point now has a citation and has been merged with second bullet point to be a paragraph. Elias (talk) 23:54, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
*History - Post World War II relations: 1945–1982: 1 sentence in first paragraph, 1 sentence in last paragraph. Response: First sentence of first paragraph removed. First sentence of last paragraph has two citiations so no change and I believe this was mistaken. I presume you meant the Third sentence on Halki seminary, I've added a citation and edited down the sentence to stick to the time and facts and reduced other descriptive commentary.Elias (talk) 01:31, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
*History - Contemporary history and issues: last part of 3rd paragraph. Response: This was simply a sentence to lead into the next section but I've removed it. Elias (talk) 01:31, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
*History - Positive relations: last part of 1st paragraph. Response: There was not much of a citation issue here but language was creative hence an edit. Added a new citation. I've seen this in books like Nation, R. Craig (2003). "Greece, Turkey, Cyprus". War in the Balkans, 1991-2002 but used a BBC article instead.Elias (talk) 01:31, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
*Contemporary history and issues - Energy pipelines: Some of 1st paragraph and 3rd paragraphs. Response: Added citation to first paragraph. Removed text in third paragraph which is not needed. Elias (talk) 01:54, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
*Contemporary history and issues - Migrants: end of paragraph 2. Response: Removed text as not necessary.Elias (talk) 02:00, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
Summary: While there are 10 paragraphs with small uncited parts, the majority of it is in the History sections. Response: This is because of the recent splitting of the article, summary style was employed. But you called out some good points so thank you for your review. All issues have now been addressed in this section Elias (talk) 02:00, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
Verification issues - Large uncited parts edit
*Background: All of paragraph 1 and 2, Most of paragraph 3 Response: Paragraph 1,2, and all of 3 except the first sentence that had a citation have been removed. Elias (talk) 06:21, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
*Background - Greek and Turk relations: 6th–19th centuries: Half of paragraph 1, All of paragraph 2 Response: Added citations to every sentence, removed others otherwise. Moved other sentences in background for better and more condensed narrative flow, following the edits to address earlier citation issues.Elias (talk) 05:20, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
*Background - Greece and Ottoman Empire relations: 1822–1923: all of paragraphs 4 and 5. Response: citations added, the two paragraphs rewritten. Elias (talk) 05:20, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
*History - Initial relations between Greece and Turkey: 1923–1945: All of paragraph 4 Response: Removed 4th paragraph; added pages as see also. The links relate to domestic politics but are relevant as it helps explain why the nations were unusually quiet during this period (ie, intense domestic politics). Elias (talk) 05:35, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
*History - Post World War II relations: 1945–1982: Most of 2nd numbered bullet point. Response: Added a bunch of citations to this section about Cyprus.Elias (talk) 06:29, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
*Contemporary history and issues: Entire 1st and 2nd paragraphs Response: I moved up from energy pipelines that didn't really belong under that heading, removed the sentences that was giving the more high level summary of the period, adding some citations. Although I added some news reports this was only because it was easy as it needs more work for journals, but now this section should be resolved. Elias (talk) 19:28, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
**Contemporary history and issues - The Aegean conflict: The entire 1st and 2nd paragraphs. Response: I added citations to the first paragraph. I rewrote the second, mostly removing text and adding a citation keeping it to the essential information. I probably could have found more citations explaining the Turkish motivation but on reflection, better to keep it high level. Elias (talk) 19:48, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
**Contemporary history and issues - Cyprus and the EU: All of 1st paragraph, most of 3rd paragraph. Response: Citations added on all the paragraphs, text removed otherwise.
**Contemporary history and issues - Minority rights: all of 1st paragraph, most of bullet points Response: Citations added to all bullet points. First paragraph edited and citations added.
**Contemporary history and issues -Sports: all bullet points Response: Removed sectiom, moved the wikipage on footable to see also list of pages. Other content is not notable to merit inclusion and removed it. Elias (talk) 20:02, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
*Timeline: 15 events ranging from 1923 to 1999 are uncited. This is over half of the events listed (27). Response: All events have at least one citation now.
Summary: The main issue is the fully uncited paragraphs. These occur at Background (5) History (1) and Contemporary History (6), totalling 12 fully uncited paragraphs. Of these uncited paragraphs, The Aegean conflict needs a lot of citations as the 2 uncited paragraphs totals 14 sentences, while the cited sentences in this sections totals to 2 sentences. While there is also partially uncited paragraphs and uncited bullet points, I think the the fully uncited paragraphs need to be focussed on first.
Neutrality issues edit
While reading through these paragraphs, there is prose that is not neutral and some prose that sound like the editor is talking to the reader, which is also an issue per WP:IMPARTIAL.
- Most of the neutrality issues are in the contemporary history section, as this was written based on a writing project I did that encouraged the very style of writing you are calling out. I've now addressed this as you caught most of them. Elias (talk) 07:08, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Here are some examples that I bolded:
*"While Cyprus and rights over the Aegean remain unresolved, the discovery of hydrocarbons reframes their disputes. And importance." Response: Text has been removed. Elias (talk) 19:25, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
*"In 1987, a Turkish survey ship, the Simsik, was ordered to be sunk to the bottom of the Greek waters if it floated too close. It nearly did." Response: Text has been rewritten. Elias (talk) 19:25, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
*The problem has grown. Lesser incidents often occur where both sides exchange fire – which does not help when tensions fly high"
Although I have not read the entire article with a neutrality check, I think this article needs to be entirely read through to see if there are any other prose that needs to be rewritten neutrally. Response: I added the citation which is what inspired this language in the first place Elias (talk) 19:25, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
Reliable Sources edit
Looking at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, this article has citations to sources that are considered generally unreliable or self published sources:
- Generally unreliable: International Business Times, WikiLeaks, Daily Sabah,
- Self published sources: Indymedia, Worldometer.
I believe these five sources should be replaced with more reliable sources.
Response: One article from each of the following were removed and rewritten if no other source supported the statement: International Business Times, WikiLeaks, Daily Sabah, and worldometer. There is no article found that links to Indymedia. Indymedia was found by alternative name of "6–7 Eylül Olayları" Elias (talk) 04:11, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
Copyright violations edit
Taking a look at the images, I noticed that the following issues:
- The October 1930 photo is a copyright violation per Commons:URAA-restored_copyrights and Commons:URAA-restored_copyrights. For an explanation, any photos in Commons must have had their copyright expired in the country they were taken and the United States. For a 1930 Turkish photo published anonymously, then its 1930+70=2000 per Turkish copyright. However, per WP:URAA, this means this photo was also copyrighted in the USA as the copyright expired in Turkey after 1996. Taking a look at Hirtle chart, the USA would be 95 years making it 1930+95=2025. This is because this photo was published overseas between 1927-1977 and did not expire in the country where it was taken (Turkey) before the URAA year (1996). This is the third point under the Works Published Abroad Before 1978 section. I do realize this is a long explanation.
I think the March 1938 photo has the same issue as well as above with still being copyrighted in the United States. While this photo is tagged to be public domain in Poland, I think this isn't correct as it was taken in Ankara, Turkey. Therefore, the same explanation above applies as 1938+70=2038.
Response: These images have now been removed from the article Elias (talk) 04:02, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
Overall edit
With a need for a large amount of citation needed tags and the copyright violations, I will have to quickfail this GAN per WP:GAFAIL. This is also not including the unreliable sources and the neutrality issues as well. While I have not performed a full review, this article is currently failing criteria #2b reliable sources, 2c original research, 2d copyvio violations and criteria #4 neutrality per Wikipedia:Good article criteria. Please note, there has been significant changes to the article since it's nomination in April 2022, such as moving content to Greece-Ottoman Empire relations. However, the above issues mentioned have been in the article before its GAN nomination. As I have seen there has been major work on this article by editors following the GAN nomination, I think this article can have a better chance at GAN if editors go through these issues (criteria 2b, 2c, 2d, and 4) before this article is nominated again. Then, this article would be a stronger candidate to become a Good Article. I hope this review encourages you to work through these issues and renominate this article when these issues are fixed. Thank you for nominating this article at GAN :) --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 03:26, 1 June 2022 (UTC)