Talk:Gothic rock

Note regarding editing of Goth related articles

This is an article (subject) which can only be accurately written and edited by persons who have been lifelong members of the European Goth subculture from it's inception in 1982. Those who do not meet this criteria have no business attempting to make assessments of a subcultural history they know little or nothing about. So please leave the writing and editing to those who know first hand - Thanks!79.230.107.17 (talk) 21:00, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

This is not how Wikipedia works. Please read the links I posted on your talkpage, which explain these issues. In the meantime this talkpage is for discussion of major changes. The changes you have made to this article, which introduce, among other issues, original research and do not conform to the guidelines on neutral point of view need to get consensus here before being implemented.--SabreBD (talk) 00:51, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

All changes made to the article are factual and relevant to the article. Removing these changes is blatent censorship of relevant factual information. If censorship is how Wikipedia works, then Wikipedia is doomed.79.230.107.17 (talk) 11:41, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Incidentally, I was there at the Batcave during the batcave era from 1982 and onwards, both as a band member of one of many goth bands during that time and a member of the UK goth subculture. The history of Goth and my own history are inseperable, since I have lived through every moment of Goth's history and was a part of it's making. When you think you know more than I do about the subject, then you're welcome to prove it, until then - my contribution and edits stand as fact.79.230.107.17 (talk) 12:27, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

You should particularly read WP:Verify. I am afraid you telling us that you were present from 1982 is not relevant in Wikipedia. Your experiences are original research and Wikipedia is not the place for these. It is also important for Wikipedia to maintain a neutral point of view, which your edits do not do. You seem to be suggesting that deathrock is distinct from gothic rock and that gothic rock is not a musical genre and have made changes that now mean the text does not reflect the reliable sources used in this article (this is apart form the formatting problems that your edits have created: removing the lead and infobox, which are important parts of this article). If you have a case for these changes and can supply reliable sources, you need to bring those points here and gain a consensus for your changes. Otherwise they will almost certainly be reverted. You should also be aware of the WP:3RR, which you are in danger of breaking.--SabreBD (talk) 13:44, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Deathrock evolved in North America from 1978 - 1983 independently of Goth in Europe which evolved during the same period, from 1984 Deathrock and Goth began to merge into a worldwide Goth movement. This is not "original research" it's simply an historical fact. It was not until Oliver Wisdom released "The Bat Cave, Young Limbs & Numb Hymns" in 1983 outside the UK that the "Aha" moment arrived in North America, then Kommunity FK (Patrick Mata) performed at the Batcave in 1983, the following year in April 1984 Christian Death (Rozz Williams) played the Batcave (Their first UK performance), at this point the pot had been mixed. As I stated in the article - Genre is a marketing tool for the music industry, the term has no real meaning and exists only in the imagination. So no, Goth is not a genre, and neither is any free art form.

Goth is not a static movement. The term "Gothic Rock" may have been valid in the mid 80's, however today the "Rock" tag is obsolete and irrelevant. Goth has become a free-form art movement.

I will post the changes below for discussion so a concensus can be reached at some point.79.230.107.17 (talk) 23:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Goth music

The bands which directly infuenced the evolution of "Goth" music are (in chronological order): Bauhaus, Joy Division, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Virgin Prunes, The Cure,, The Sisters of Mercy, Southern Death Cult, Specimen, Alien Sex Fiend, Sexbeat, The Venomettes, Sex Gang Children, Clan of Xymox, and Dead Can Dance. Dave Vanian of The Damned was an obvious influence on Goth fashion style, although the band has never been in any way dark or gothic in musical terms.

Whilst the person who wrote the above is probably right that these bands influenced Goth, they were not all Goths by any means. The article makes some effort to distinguish between bands that influenced the Goths and were admired by them and those that actually were 'Gothic'. However it seems to confuse the issue repeatedly and a bit more clarity in this regard seems desirable. The term gothic (small 'g'!) was often used adjectivally (rather than in reference to a genre) of 'post-punk' bands like Joy Division, the Banshees, The Cure, The Birthday Party, Killing Joke, Bauhaus etc. These were distinct from 'true' Goth bands like Sisters of Mercy, Fields of the Nephilim etc. (this can be confusing as the Sisters have themselves rejected the term just as the Birthday Party and Killing Joke did). If you went to a Cure gig in the late eighties you'd be very conscious of the different camps by the way people were dressed. You'd have your general indie kids (generally no make up and not chromatically challenged in the wardrobe department), then there'd be the guys with Robert Smith hairdos, make up, all in black (usually black denims and baggy jumpers). They weren't Goths. They were the obsessive Cure fans. Also in black and heavily made up with dyed black hair, but usually with piercings and a penchant for leather, rubber, bondage gear, studded dog collars, wrist bands, belts etc were the actual goths. Easy to spot the difference. The Goths adopted the post punk likes of the Cure, yet whilst those bands may've been gothic, they certainly weren't Goths.

In regards to music and ideology drawing strict lines is always questionable but I would point to the Sisters of Mercy's self proclaimed vision of their look and sound as the culmination and pointlessness of all prior rock cliches. The same can be said for the absurdities of the likes of the Nephilim. The more theatrical post punk bands (Banshees, Cure, Birthday Party) were adopting a look that was expressionistic rather than ironic. Similarly post punk music was broadly speaking expressionistic in tone -seeking to expand the vocabulary of rock music. By contrast the Goths propounded a millenialist, fin-de sciecle attitude that everything had been said and done and their music and image reflected a nihilism founded on this.

As for the Damned they certainly weren't Goths to start with and their graveyard imagery was pure comedy, but they later tried to pose as Goths in order to cash in (indeed one could argue that the Banshees did this later on as their popularity waned too, and even the Cure if a bit more passively). General blackblood (talk) 15:25, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

References

Terminology - Goth vs "Gothic Rock"

It should be noted that the outdated term Gothic rock has become obsolete, (much as the terms "Groovy" and "Hipster"), given that the term Rock with it's 1950's Rock and Roll roots, is extremely limiting and no longer relevant to 21st century music and subculture.

Rock music by definition is based on 4/4 time signature 12-Bar R&B (Blues), with a back beat provided by drums, and a rhythm provided by bass and guitar.

Goth music does not require any of these elements, it can include any imaginable rhythm, combination of rhythms or polyrhythms, or can be completely devoid of all rhythm, with no key or time signature, no beat, no drums, no bass, no guitar or any stringed or percussion instruments of any kind. Goth can be a drone or complete silence. Goth can be white noise or ambient sound or absolutely anything the artist requires it to be as an instrument of expression. Goth music is a free art form, which can be as avant gard, experimental or as conventional as the artist composing it.

The term "Rock" therefore has no meaning in such a context. The concept of Genre itself is nothing short of a pair of creative handcuffs without a key.

Virtually all existing "Goths" agree that the term Goth is now universally applied to both goth music and goth subculure, without the need for any genre tags. The term "genre" being solely a marketing tool for the music industry.79.230.107.17 (talk) 23:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure how to respond to all this. These seem to be unsourced changes and that constitute original research, which is to be avoided on Wikipedia. It is probably not helpful to post all the proposed changes here, but better to concisely summarise what you are trying to do and what exactly are your reliable sources.--SabreBD (talk) 09:40, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I did a googlebook search on pussible names for this article. "goth music" gets 1,730 results, "goth rock" gets 2,570 results, and "gothic rock" gets 5,210 results. I also found a few hundred results for "pop-goth". Dimadick (talk) 11:36, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I wanted to bring it up in the past, but I thought people would brand me as nitpicking. Wikipedia, and Americans all you can do is shake your head. Anyone old enough from the late 80's know the term was simply "Goth". After it became mainstream in the U.S/Canada in the late 90s and well after 2000's American kids started adding the rock...See "Punk Rock". Americans cant say it without the rock for some reason. Well its obvious its rock music.Starbwoy (talk) 23:37, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

References

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Gothic rock should be retitled Goth Rock or at least Goth rock"

I really haven't heard of anyone call it "Gothic rock" I do know many sources that do explain it being called Goth Rock

Renaming the article to "Goth music" and focusing on '80s goth in general (including goth-pop)

Is there any good reason why this shouldn't be done? The "rock" seems totally arbitrary to me. I never see this genre referred to as "gothic rock". It's almost always "goth" and sometimes "goth-pop".--Ilovetopaint (talk) 01:49, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Go into any database (Discogs for example, and "gothic rock" is a primary genre. I have been listening to and professionally writing about this music for 30+ years and have never once heard it referred to as "gothic pop" save for modern-day 2000s artists (which is not the focus of this article). Where on earth are you pulling this from? Gothic rock is a standard music business and music source genre term; everyone has seen it and knows what it means. Gothic pop? What even is that? Do a Google search. "Gothic rock": 1,880,000 results. "Goth-pop": 62,000 results. Speaks for itself.Greg Fasolino (talk) 18:50, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. The genre term is Gothic Rock. Tons of books and academic publications describe this genre of music... Just another dorky proposal by Mr. Ilovetopaint, based on his POV... Don't try something funny. I'll revert it. --RivetHeadCulture (talk) 23:19, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Not to mention Mick Mercer's early contribution to the goth books fields - The Gothic Rock Black Book and Gothic Rock sheridan (talk) 10:22, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

"... have never once heard it referred to as "gothic pop" save for modern-day 2000s artists (which is not the focus of this article)." That's my point entirely... why can't it be part of the focus? "Because Discogs"? Oh, that changes everything, I guess, since we all know how trustworthy online databases like Discogs/AllMusic/Rateyourmusic are (they aren't). Thanks also for the Google web results fallacy (search Google News and you see "goth-pop" has 1,610 results to "goth-rock"'s 1,950).

@Starbwoy: gave interesting insight on this subject a year ago (scroll up on this talk page). I only had one question that this article doesn't answer very well -- is goth pop the same thing as goth rock, and if not, then what makes gothic rock distinct from other gothic music? And does "other gothic music" even exist? --Ilovetopaint (talk) 22:33, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Which part of the words "books" and "scientific publications" don't you understand? This discussion is entirely pointless. Goth pop is not an established genre term. The correct term used by musicologists and sociologists is GOTHIC ROCK. --RivetHeadCulture (talk) 10:36, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Let's keep it [[1]], eh? "(d) belittling a fellow editor, including the use of judgemental edit summaries or talk-page posts (e.g. "that is the stupidest thing I have ever seen", "snipped crap")" sheridan (talk) 12:59, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

It's worth remembering that this entire article is about a British phenomenon which we Brits first called both Goth and Gothic in its formative years 1979-80, during which both Siouxsie and Bauhaus disowned the term even as key figures referenced in the "Origins" section began using it. Of course the term had echoed around the American scene during the 1960s-70s and provides a sounding board for this article, but the intro does refer explicitly to a later chapter in British music history. I'm afraid American observers frequently insist on asserting their own terms at Wikipedia for aspects of British subculture misguidedly! Just sayin'. 217.155.200.241 (talk) 13:17, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

I'd also suggest that the intro is substantially wrong to assert: "Gothic rock then gave rise to a broader subculture that included clubs, fashion and publications in the 1980s." Perhaps within a small following of Goths. But fashion had a far greater impact at the same time that the dance music revolution in UK nightclubbing exploded specifically out of London's Blitz club in 1979, otherwise called the New Romantics movement, which triggered a new Swinging London and unprecedented overhauls by the young of the middle-aged institutions of fashion, music and media in the UK. Goth was one of many trends that comprised the slipstream. 217.155.200.241 (talk) 13:32, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

@217.155.200.241: Sorry if I come across as dense, but I take this to mean that you believe the article should in fact be renamed to Goth music or Gothic music? Ilovetopaint (talk) 08:07, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Finn Bhul @ 103.176.81.112 (talk) 15:06, 8 December 2023 (UTC)