Talk:Gore Vidal/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Maeve Binchy?

I have removed[1] the addition of a paragraph about Maeve Binchy which is entirely irrelevant to Vidal. Nsk92 (talk) 20:07, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The death of Barry Unsworth and Ray Bradbury on the same day is made reference to in Unsworth. They are both writers and the comparison was made by a fellow writer. --86.40.106.208 (talk) 21:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Additional information needed

I just finished reading several articles about Vidal (who died yesterday) including this article. I would appeal to this articles major editors to make two additions to this article. 1. A paragraph on his service in the Navy during WWII at the end of the Early Years section. Apparently he served in the Pacific theatre including time in Alaska. 2. A section on his relationship with Oklahoma City Bomber Timothy McVeigh. Probably immediately after the William F. Buckley section would be the appropriate chronological place. Many of the obit articles have dedicated much discussion of this to the discussions and interactions he had with McVeigh.--Hokeman (talk) 22:34, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top.
The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). Jonathunder (talk) 23:12, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Political candidacy

Personally, I am very sorry to see the death of one of my favorite writers. Duluth and Live from Golgotha are two of my favorite novels of all time. But, on a more relevant point, if I remember one of the author biographies in one of his books, it said something to the effect that while he, as a Democratic, did lose in his bid for the House seat, he got a larger percentage of the voters in that election than any other Democratic in something like 100 years. Calling it a "traditionally Republican district" may not be doing it justice. I'm not sure where to find the best sources for that information, but if it is accurate, and I think it probably is, I think it is probably significant enough for inclusion in the article. John Carter (talk) 15:04, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

It would certainly be ill to talk badly of him now. But it is a good idea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HappyHippo69 (talk • contribs) 16:20, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Al Gore

Salon now claims that Vidal was not related to Al Gore. No sources given, other than the article, but this deserves follow-up. Bill Jefferys (talk) 17:50, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

A correction to the New York Times obit [2] almost, but not quite, settles the relationship question. BluDog (talk) 04:33, 3 August 2012 (UTC)BluDog

Genealogical research makes it highly unlikely that there was any relatively recent relation. Al Gore's "Gore" ancestors had been traced back to the 17th century, with no connection to Gore Vidal. It was more likely that they were related in some other way, frankly. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 05:34, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Liberal?

I'm going to remove the description of Gore as "liberal" in the first sentence of the abstract. His politics were complicated and messy, and he was a self-described conservative. He was probably most of all a radical, but he positioned himself as a member of some old-guard, making him a reactionary. Short version: he's just too complicated to give a one-word label like "liberal" (or any other one-word descriptor) in that prominent a position in this, the document of record on him. Jordanp (talk) 18:31, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

"Anti-Semitism"

Gore Vidal's attack upon Norman Podhoretz and Midge Decter as "Israeli Fifth Column[nists]" reflects Vidal's view that their political loyalties lie first and foremost with the State of Israel rather than the United States of America. In this way they are similar to the spy Jonathan Pollard. Vidal's well-known anti-Zionism, however, is not the same as anti-Semitism. Uri Avnery, Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein are well-known Jewish critics of the policies of Israel, but they get a free pass in some quarters for being of the Hebraic Persuasion rather than Goyim. Vidal may be safely smeared as an anti-Semite for the sin of being a goyische critic of Israel and of those "Americans" like Podhoretz and Decter. This section is pure bias (not NPOV) and should be deleted. Writtenright (talk) 19:26, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• The article in question may be read at http://www.thecactusland.com/2010/06/empire-lovers-strike-back.html - I agree with Writtenright here, and in an attempt to WP:BOLD, I have removed the subsection completely.abach (talk) 11:06, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Writtenright—you say "Uri Avnery and Norman Finkelstein are well-known Jewish critics of the policies of Israel, but they get a free pass in some quarters for being of the Hebraic Persuasion rather than Goyim."[3] Do you have a source for that?

We have in what seems to be a reliable source: "Last March, in a special issue commemorating its 120th anniversary, the Nation published an article by the novelist Gore Vidal entitled “The Empire Lovers Strike Back” which impressed me and many other people as the most blatantly anti-Semitic outburst to have appeared in a respectable American periodical since World War II."[4]

The above is sourced. Why has all trace of this dimension of Gore Vidal been removed[5] from his biography? Can Abach please explain why all trace of Vidal's alleged antisemitism are removed in that edit? If sources substantially support this allegation then I should think that dimension of the subject of the biography warrants representation.

I have removed the term "smear" from this section heading because precisely what we are discussing is whether the charge of antisemitism is merely a baseless "smear" or a charge substantiated by reliable sources.

I find at WP:TALKNEW[6]: "Keep headings neutral: A heading should indicate what the topic is, but not communicate a specific view about it." Bus stop (talk) 16:11, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

So, let me get this straight: The reliable source naming him something as smearing as 'anti-semite' is the exact person he is criticizing. And that's reliable, even substantially support for the view? That's one persons word against the other. What I _would_ agree with, is having the paragraph as what it is, an exchange of views, which even states that what Podhoretz and his readers thought of Vidal's essay. But that does not mean that the view is widespread, nor that it is correctly identified. My impression of Vidal's essay is that he does not like Zionism, and that labeling this as anti-semitism is _very_ oversensitive and unnecessary slander.

However, the way the paragraph is written at this now, it's only the heading I have issue with. abach (talk) 07:55, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

If the title were something like "Allegations of Anti-Semitism" or "Accusations of Anti-Semitism" would that work? --PiMaster3 ^talk 01:15, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

His article's intent was clear. Just because the facts about it are inconvenient doesn't mean that they should be excluded from this article. --PiMaster3 ^talk 05:10, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

What's inconvenient is that this gets coined as 'anti-semitism', when Vidal clearly states that it is the Zionism he perceives with these persons he is argumenting against. The essay of Vidal is quite nuanced, if you can make yourself read all of it.abach (talk) 07:55, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

It's a load of bull as it stands at the moment. I am deleting it to maintain NPoV. Farrtj (talk) 12:07, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Here's a source: http://www.counterpunch.org/2002/12/14/zionism-unbound/ . Here is Vidal himself: "...since spades may not be called spades in freedom's land, let me spell it out. In order to get military and economic support for Israel, a small number of American Jews, who should know better, have made common cause with every sort of reactionary and anti-Semitic group in the United States, from the corridors of the Pentagon to the TV studios of the evangelical Jesus Christers, all in the interest of supporting the likes of Sharon as opposed to the Peace Now Israelis whom they disdain." Writtenright (talk) 19:49, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

It's Original Research to judge Vidal to be an anti-Semite based off an essay he wrote, which is against Wikipedia policy. Find a quote from a reliable source such as The New York Times or The Guardian labelling him as an anti-Semite and you can put it in. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Farrtj (talk) 10:00, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Ext links

There were too many ext links. Some may be useful so I will dump them here:

• Gore Vidal New York Review of Books author profile including a list of his reviews and essays from over 40 years, along with a bibliography
• Appearances on C-SPAN
  • In Depth interview with Vidal, October 1, 2000
• Gore Vidal/Archive 2 on Charlie Rose
• Works by or about Gore Vidal/Archive 2 in libraries (WorldCat catalog)
• Gore Vidal/Archive 2 collected news and commentary at The New York Times
• Audio recording: Gore Vidal at the Key West Literary Seminar, 2009: "Writer Against the Grain"
• Gore Vidal's America — Seven part interview with Gore Vidal on The Real News — (video) July 5, 2009
• The Essays of Gore Vidal At Open Letters Monthly
• Gore Vidal Interview with Melvyn Bragg in New Statesman Magazine — October 11, 2010
• Gerald Clarke (Fall 1974). "Gore Vidal, The Art of Fiction No. 50". The Paris Review.
• "Trailer for the Remake of Gore Vidal's Caligula by Francesco Vezzoli – [7]

-- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 03:51, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Criticism of the George W. Bush administration

Hi, In Par 2 I removed the line alleging a conspiracy involving NORAD. Conspiracy to do what and when exactly ? There were no clues to be found in the text.

Also, "the stupidest man in the United States" quote in Par 1 refs a 2009 blog of an interview in The Times of London. In it, Obama is described as performing "dreadfully", as being unable "to understand military matters" and having "fucked up" health care reform.

Although I was unable to do so, it would be a good idea for the The Times article to be accessed and the current reference replaced.

If some of the digs at Obama were inserted, maybe this rather thin section could be expanded to: "Criticisms of the George W. Bush and Barack Obama administrations" ?

Best regards BluDog

Questionable statements in the first section

"Vidal's novels fell into two distinct camps: social and historical." He wrote science fiction, mysteries, spy thrillers, romance, social satire, historical fiction and novels centered on religion. Can all these genres legitimately be stuffed into social or historical?

I also don't think his 1946 novel was the first WWII novel. For instance 'A Bell for Andano' was published before 1946. Nitpyck (talk) 21:20, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Defence of Child Rape

We really ought to have something about Vidal's defence of child-rape in this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/10/a-conversation-with-gore-vidal/307767/#at — Preceding unsigned comment added by MichaelPWSmith (talk • contribs) 19:37, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Was he defending child-rape or was he defending those accused (Polanski) of child-rape? The source you gave certainly supports the latter interpretation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.176.65.197 (talk) 21:38, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Bad Link

Reference 11 to a Booknotes Interview links instead to Susan Butler and her book about Amelia Earhart. A search of Booknotes interviews gives nothing for Gore Vidal. wgoetsch (talk) 21:28, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Nevermind. Bad on me. Apparently Amelia had once been in love with Gore, and this must be mentioned in the interview. wgoetsch (talk) 21:52, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Ben-Hur (1959 film)

It's pretty funny (and paradoxical) to read "His screenwriting credits included the epic historical drama Ben-Hur (1959)" since it was uncredited in this film! 83.78.18.252 (talk) 06:22, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Gore Vidal vs anybody w/ literary talent.

In retrospect, while I believe he was the best American essayist of the 20th Century, Gore Vidal had a nasty, vindictive streak. He claimed on one of Dick Cavett's PBS interview shows that "The New York Times" had a lifelong vendetta against him for and since writing _The City and the Pillar_. He claimed that he never received a good book review from the newspaper after that.

As regards the incessant war of insults with Wm F Buckley Jr, I do not think Buckley was a "queer" hater, so much as he had a deep personal dislike for Vidal. Buckley was polite on a "Firing Line" installment to Truman Capote http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xxGchy14pE . Also, YouTube has an extensive selection of clips from the Buckley v. Vidal commentaries on both the 1968 GOP and DEM National Conventions. The summer was hot, the country was in a virtual civil war over the Viet Nam War, and there was one ad hominem attack too many.

Back to Truman Capote, upon being asked by a reporter on his thoughts on the author's death in 1984, Vidal only said that he thought, "It was a wise career move." We know from that Vidal did not believe in the polite advice not to speak ill of the dead, as is also evidenced by his nasty "obituary" after Buckley's death. I do not know how Norman Mailer faired when he died a few months earlier --they had patched up their near two decades long quarrel sufficiently to appear at a fundraiser in New York City in 1990-- but Vidal had a very nasty streak in him.johncheverly 19:49, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM Marteau (talk) 02:11, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Vidal and the Kennedys

I heard more than one report on Pacifica Radio about Vidal's relationship to the Kennedy's, in particular his friendship with Jackie, and conflict with Bobby. I saw no reference to it here. Does anybody know of this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.141.168.90 (talk) 14:38, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis was Vidal's stepsister once removed; i.e., they shared a stepfather (Hugh Auchincloss). Despite their later estrangement, they considered themselves siblings when they were younger. The National First Ladies' Library official biography [8] and this appreciation from Bloomberg (Gore Vidal Skewered the Powerful as Insider: Appreciation [9]) discuss their relationship.Carlaclaws (talk) 18:28, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

patrician

Wikipedia is for the average reader, i.e. people who aren't familiar with words like "patrician". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.122.14 (talk) 13:17, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

agreed. overtime Wikipedia is more and more difficult for the average reader to understand. Look at most technical articles. Thewhitebox (talk) 12:54, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Analyses of Wikipedia have shown its average reading level is college sophomore, so I would agree with your sentiment that some editors need to remember that not everyone is as educated as they are. However, Googling "'gore vidal' 'patrician'" reveals that the term 'patrician' is commonly associated with Vidal. I believe it's usage here is proper. Additionally, it is linked. The term is so associated with him and so well describes him that those who do not know what the word means really should spend a minute and learn it if they are truly interesed in learning what kind of man he was. Marteau (talk) 14:59, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

But it leads to the disambiguation page "patrician". Which of the meanings is the intended one? Presumably the original, ancient Roman one? A single direct link should be substituted. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:38, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Gore Vidal's book on 9/11

In a short review of Chomsky and Gore Vidal's books on 9/11 (Foreign Affairs Journal, September/October 2002 Issue: "9-11; Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace: How We Got to Be So Hated"[10]) the author states: "If those who believe that American activism is necessary and beneficial for the world want a more sympathetic international hearing, they must argue as forcefully as Chomsky -- and write as well as Vidal."

Would this have any place in this article? Thewhitebox (talk) 12:54, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Well maybe, although the same summary says: "Vidal's essays fall considerably short of his usual polished standard." A longer, more detailed review might yield a bit more substance? The Amazon listing is here: [11]. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:43, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Confusing sentence

oes anyone else find the following sentence confusing? "In turn, on learning of that script-doctor explanation, Charlton Heston said that Gore Vidal had contributed little to the script of Ben Hur (1959), the very successful third version of the religious novel Ben-Hur: A Tale of the Christ (1880), by Lew Wallace."

Normally, I would simply re-write to clarify, but I'm not sure what this sentence means and I lack the background knowledge to substantively alter it. I flag it in the hopes someone can improve it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RKill (talk • contribs) 18:36, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

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Sexuality, or lack thereof

There's a peculiar statement early in the Career section where it reads, "the cultural critic Harold Bloom has written that Gore Vidal believed that his sexuality had denied him full recognition from the literary community in the United States". However, once you check the relevant Private life section, all you find are love affairs with women plus a progressive lack of homophobia. Slightly further below the peculiar statement, you'll find the sort-of claim that Vidal was gay or bi-sexual simply because of whom he's dedicated his book The City and the Pillar to, but Vidal would later deny that very claim as based on the book (see The City and the Pillar and Seven Early Stories, New York, NY: Random House, 1995, page xiv). So either you'll have to elaborate further, or you'll have to delete the peculiar earlier sentence. --79.242.203.134 (talk) 05:26, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

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Why was the Vidal quote in which he was critical of mass immigration removed with no reference to the reason for the removal? The quote had been on this page for years and removed very recently. Who removed it and why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:5D80:1496:91BF:398:CD2C:E1DB (talk) 21:24, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Private life

Contrary to what this section implies, Vidal never denied in his memoir that he had a sexual relationship with Anais Nin. In fact he writes about her pink nipples and says that he was "ensorceled" by her for a time. But he didn't "love" the people he slept with. He separated love and sex, except in the singular case of his adolescent relationship with Jimmie Trimble. 108.244.74.98 (talk) 03:42, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Dennis Hopper

There is a brief anecdote about Dennis Hopper which I believe should removed. It is uncorroborated, from a dubious source, and basically crude. It does not add anything to the article itself. It has also a recent tradition to the article and, therefore, unnecessary. Wherewithall (talk) 09:57, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

The Daily Beast is listed as generally reliable at WP:RSP, and we use in-text attribution ("Vidal reportedly told his nephew..."), so we're not just stating it as a fact in wiki's voice. But I take no stance as to whether it's noteworthy information. Colin M (talk) 17:28, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Intro section: Please help!

I've read and reread this article's intro section for the better part of two years now, hoping those who have read Vidal's memoirs, essays--even more than a handful of his works--would come crashing in to supplement even the basest biographical information, correcting what is at best vague and at worst incomprehensible. Vidal's "polished style of writing?" What does this mean? Really: what does it mean? If the writing of a world-famous, paradigm-shifting literary polymath is not "polished," all hope is lost. And this is only one example.

I write this talk section to request urgent assistance. Can the Wiki of this literary colossus, this "Mount Rushmore mind," in the words of Melvyn Bragg, be salvaged? Has anyone else read Palimpsest, and can fill in even the slightest detail? Perhaps for starters: shouldn't Vidal's "upper class political family" be amended to clarify that this was in fact the family of Senator Thomas Gore? I don't even know where to start, and am relatively new to Wikipedia compared to the legions of super-editors that must be out there. Help! U know the deal (talk) 21:18, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Erudition?

Using this word in the lede makes it sound a bit fawning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:18F:4101:4830:F886:2905:1DC1:5771 (talk) 07:36, 15 April 2022 (UTC)