Talk:Gold Base/Archive 1

More information

You can find out more information on Stacy Moxon Meyer's death if you check out the main website linked at the bottom of the page for citation #9. - GN 8/9/06

Comment

Unbelievable, people aren't discussing the largely unsupported stuff of the article? Well, here's a sentence I cut from the article. If someone can cite it, good. Else it didn't belong in the article in the first place.

The Gold Base is also referred to as the "Int Base"

To whom is it know as "Int Base?" What source of published information has that? Who wrote it? When did they write it? Why is it called "Int Base?" Cite it or it doesn't belong in the article. Terryeo 02:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Inside Scientology Is there a way to add the same reference in different locations without having it listed multiple times in the Notes? AndroidCat 01:17, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there is. The first time you use the reference, you add an extra attribute called name whose value is a text string, so that instead of:

<ref>reference information</ref>

you use:

<ref name="RefName">reference information</ref>

Then, if you want to use the same reference after that, you use a ref tag with the same name value and a slash just before the closing >:

<ref name="RefName"/>

That single tag is all you need to use -- no need for an extra </ref>; the slash at the end of the ref tag takes its place.

The thing that I suspect isn't supported, which would be useful, would be an option to include parameters in the reference text. That way if you had a single book that you made several references to, say it was Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, you could insert several reference tags, each one specifying a particular page. I don't think Cite.php does this, but perhaps I'm not reading m:Cite/Cite.php correctly. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:35, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Series Template

Removing this Series Template from across the Scientology related pages. This is not correct usage of Series Templates per the guidelines. They were set up to show the history of countries and were different articles form a sequential series. This is not the case with the Scientology pages, which are random pages on different topics – not a sequence of any kind. Wiki’s definition of a series is: “In a general sense, a series is a related set of things that occur one after the other (in a succession) or are otherwise connected one after the other (in a sequence).” Nuview, 11:30, 10 January 2006 (PST)

Series are not only chronological, we have a judaism series, an islam series, etc. Ronabop 00:54, 11 January 2006 (UTC).

Are CMO and RTC *part* of Gold Base?

Just trying to trim "big yellow" down to the essentials. Ronabop 05:16, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I was at Gold 1989-1991 and at that time the following orgs were there: Gold, CMO Gold, CMO Int, OSA Int, RTC, the Translation Unit, RTRC (Ron's technical research and compilation, which writes new HCOB's and PLs), Central Marketing Unit (this kept getting folded into and out of Gold), WDC, and surely other units I've forgotten. Basically all of the highest level orgs. It was supposed to be a big secret that these "Int" orgs were there. There is also some international management in LA in the Hollywood Blvd complex but most of it is at Gold base. Unfortunately this stuff is very hard to provide citations for. Try looking through afidavits of court cases. Good luck! --145.97.202.134 11:17, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Posting here a sentence removed from the article

The article stated: "While the Gold Base is purportedly an administrative and security headquarters for a religious organization ..." and gave these two links as verifications: [1] and [2]. The first link has this single line of weasel worded, unattribted text which supports the mentioned line in question: "Critics, who call the facility "Gold Base," claim the compound also houses the church's highly secretive security apparatus." But, that line which is published at that link is not cited, instead it is presented almost verbatim. Why don't you present that perfectly good webpage as a controversy instead of attempting to induce a reader to read the whole article to find the single line of rumor it presents? The line cites a rumor on a webpage. No source of that information is given by that webpage. Therefore it is not a reasonable citation. The second link is Xenu's page of talk about Gold Base doesn't address those issues either. I'm therefore removing that portion of the sentence. Terryeo 20:32, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree. Those sources were not adequate to cite the sentence. The first one was a general ramble not specific to the issue. And a general guideline is not to use web forums as a source. --malber 21:38, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Posting part of a second sentence here

Miscaviage is a resident at Gold Base? That's interesting, he has been publically seen in many locations. What statement did he make which led some editor to the conclusion that he lists that as his primary residence? Terryeo 20:36, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

There is plenty of documentation that david miscavige lives at the gold base. Knock off your suppressive pov agenda, Terryeo.--Fahrenheit451 23:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

"knock off your suppressive pov" is an evaluation. It tells me you evaluate my insistence of a citation for that statement about Miscaviage residing at Gold as a suppressive act. What exactly is a "suppressive act" Fahrenheit451? You have made an accusation, what do you mean by it? And, BTW, WP:V, one of 3 policies we all edit under requires an editor provide a verification for statements entered into articles. Please do provide any single citation from amoungst the vast plentitude of documentation you so freely tell me about, will you?  :) Terryeo 06:56, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Quote: There is also "Gold Base," the exclusive desert compound housing the Religious Technology Center, or RTC, the financial hub of the church, located about 80 miles southeast of Los Angeles, home to David Miscavige, the charismatic 45 year old who heads up the international church. Source: "Inside Scientology" by Janet Reitman. Rolling Stone, Issue 995. March 9, 2006. Page 57. Reitman's article also says other "top leaders" of the church live there. Her sources? She was given a lengthy tour of Gold Base and interviewed high-ranking members of Sea Org there.

Quote: RTC's chairman of the board is David Miscavige, who is now the admitted head of the Church of Scientology. His latest intervention will be found in the October issue of Premiere magazine. For any story on Scientology, Miscavige is the one to be interviewed. He lives on the Golden Era Productions property at Gilman Hot Springs. The PR assigned to you will know how to get a message to him. If all else fails, call Golden Era Productions. The personnel there know how to reach him. Source: "Scientology from inside out" Robert Vaughn Young, Quill magazine, Volume 81, Number 9, Nov/Dec 1993. AndroidCat 15:11, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

On about March 29th on one of the major news channels at about 6PM Pacific Standard Time, for several minutes on national television, a newscaster talked with a Church of Scientology representative, who was responding to her questions in what appeared to be real time. He was not David Miscaviage. Therefore AndroidCat's quote, "For any story on Scientology, Miscaviage is the one to be interviewed" is false. In addition, many other Scientologists have been interviewed by many other news reporters. The Rolling Stones piece interviewed many Scientologists and presented a handful of them in its publication. The list goes on. I am stating this obvious situation to point out that AndroidCat's quote is less than 100 % accurate. Source Magazine is published to a particular public and for a particular purpose. But Xenu.net does not present the obvious situation that many Scientologists make many public statements. Terryeo 11:26, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

The statement is neither by myself or by xenu.net, but by Robert Vaughn Young as advice to writers and reporters in 1993 when it was less well known who could be considered the current head of Scientology. (David Miscaviage was described as such when he was testifying in the Ontario Snow White case. Ref: "Crimes outraged church trial told", Toronto Star, May 29, 1992, p.A26.) In analogy, while many White House spokespeople talk to the press, you have to go to the top if you want the opinion that matters. All of this is irrelevant sidetracking. The main point for the quotation is that DM lives at Gold. AndroidCat 14:48, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Posting of a third sentence here

"Currently, most base personnel live in Hemet at Kirby Apartments and commute by base-owned bus. There are plans for crew berthing to be constructed on base property which would result in almost all crew being held on the base for a week at a time. Sunday morning shopping is allowed, but personnel are advised to shop in pairs." that first sentence, they live in Hemet makes sense. The last sentence contradicts the first. How do you "allow" people who live in an apartment to shop or not shop? What, armed guards? What? Doesn't make sense. Then the middle sentence talks about plans. What plans? They aren't cited. If they were cited then, Why would such plans entail "being held?" What is that, some kind of prison? And "held for a week at a time (when the plans finish)? There is no citation of that sillyness and it is stated in contradictory ways. Terryeo 01:14, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

You don't need armed guards to control behaviour, you just tell everyone that leaving the apartment is out-ethics. Then people control their own behavior. This is not legally "being held" but it amounts to the same thing; this is how a cult works. Note that security seems to have been getting tighter since I was at Gold in 1989-1991. I lived at the Kirby apartments, also at the Devonshire apartments both in Hemet. We could leave the apartments if we had time (which was almost never except Sunday mornings) and no one had ever told us to go in pairs, and we were allowed personal phone lines then. I hear that's all changed now. Again, this stuff is very hard to provide citations for, so all I'm really saying is keep digging. --Jonathan Stray 11:24, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Notes

Paragraph removed. The section is melodrama not factual. The POV is unsubstantiated, dervied from apostates. Further, the cited links are not credible sources. Streamlight 17:12 17 February 2006 (GMT)

I reverted your removal of a whole paragraph. If you don't like the sourced material, provide better sources. If it was POV, revise it. Wholesale removal, though, was unjustified. Jonathunder 17:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Note to wikipedians: Any criminal nut-cult will of course try to whitewash any entries about their organization. Keep an eye out for it.

We noticed. The fact that they keep getting exposed shows that Wikipedia is a pretty damn good system. Edward Grefenstette 11:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Along the lines of "note to wikipedians", here's another one. It was posted by Dave Touretzky.He states: congradulations to Chris Owen (ChrisO), Android Cat, Modemac, Antaeus Feldspar for evolving "a huge, glowing mass of entheta" at Wikipedia. [3] Terryeo 15:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

That was nice of him. Thanks for passing that along—It's a change from the usual chain-rattling in the attic. AndroidCat 16:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I've removed some of your quotation marks, Terryeo, since it wasn't actually a quote. I've kept them around "a huge, glowing mass of entheta", since those actually were Touretzky's words, but since the rest was your paraphrasing of Touretzky I've fixed the formatting appropriately. -- Antaeus Feldspar 21:56, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Final sentence

...a ghastly decapitation which occurred at the Gold Base when Scientology was moving construction equipment on the highway at night without lights and in the wrong lane

I must confess to being highly impressed at the idea of a doctrine lifting heavy equipment, however I suspect that is not what the sentence should say. Perhaps change to "a Scientologist was" or "Scientologists were", or even just "when heavy equipment was being moved"? Without knowing the details of the case I cannot be certain which is appropriate. Daduzi 17:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

amusing way to state the obvious. heh Terryeo 23:56, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, perhaps you're right. And then again, perhaps every newspaper and magazine, when reporting the actions of the current U.S. President as "Bush said today..." should actually say "President George W. Bush" today to clarify just for those viewers who might be confused that it is the current U.S. President being referred to, and not an unnamed shrubbery. Shrubberies can't talk, you see.

There are places in Wikipedia where we may need to spell out when we use the term "Scientology" whether we are referring to the philosophy or to the organization. There are other places where the context makes it clear. You yourself demonstrated how absurd it would be to think that Scientology the philosophy is being referred to; I would think that would mark this as one of the occasions when we can trust the reader's intelligence. -- Antaeus Feldspar 21:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

My issue with the sentence as it read was not one of confusion, more of syntax. It would seem that saying "Scientology was moving construction equipment" would be akin to saying "the October Revolution in Russia saw Communism revolt against Democracy". It's making something inherantly inanimate animate, and seems strange from an English perspective. I should note that I say this having no agenda whatsoever (lest there be any confusion), merely as a casual reader for whom the sentence stood out as a little odd. Of course, I may be missing something, and "Scientology" may be a common shorthand for "The Church of Scientology", in which case I would stand corrected, though I should note that it cannot be guaranteed that every reader will be familiar with that convention. Daduzi 23:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you just hit the nail on the head. While "Scientology" and "the Church of Scientology" technically designate two different things, the Church of Scientology works so hard to present itself as the only source of Scientology-the-belief-system that "Scientology" is still frequently used as a shorthand for the organization. You may have a point about that being a confusing usage for those not so familiar with the subject, though. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:58, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

reliable sources?

Most of this article is based on claims made at websites that seem to fall under the rules at WP:A#Reliable sources; "A questionable source is one with no editorial oversight or fact-checking process or with a poor reputation for fact-checking." According to policy such sources may only be used in articles about themselves. --JWSchmidt 21:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I have been pointing out this problem on other WP Scientology articles. There seems to be very little information out there except for the Church itself and personal websites of critics. Despite the hue and cry over Tom and Katie there seems to be very little mainstream interest in the topic of Scientology itself. Steve Dufour 18:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm deleting the address. It really seems like too much information.S. M. Sullivan 06:21, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The article now appears to me to be well-sourced, relying for its main points on news articles (which are required by law to fact-check) and court case affidavits --Jonathan Stray 12:49, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Gold Base Secrecy? Not.

I grew up near Hemet and would frequently pass by Gold Base in the 80s. By virtually all means, it was not a secret that the Scientology cult owned this land. My grandmother often told me that some crazy cultists lived there and to stay away. The only secrecy about it was what went on inside, since it was off-limits to the non-cultists. The article should probably be changed to reflect this. But, all Hemetites knew this was a Scientology cult base in the 80s and possibly before. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jgw (talk • contribs) 18:41, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I sure that many people knew it was Scientology even when they moved in as the "Scottish Quietude Club". The secrecy and smokescreens (Golden Era Films, Scientologists not allowed to talk about Int, etc) have mainly been to disguise the use of the base as a Scientology control center, and initially as a hiding place for L. Ron Hubbard. AndroidCat (talk) 15:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

The RPF at Gold Base

Not a single mention of the RPF in this entire article. Gold Base has the largest RPF (Rehabilitation Project Force) grounds, and it's where they "willingly" imprison Scientologists, mostly Sea Org'ers, for not following the tech correctly, or saying something they weren't supposed to say in public. The prisoners are put to labor and are expected to preform tasks while being given courses which are designed to get them back into the norm of Scientology.

Perhaps someone who's better than me at writing an encyclopedic article can put that in there, perhaps under a new category "Controversies".--Relyt22 (talk) 17:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

If Scientologists can take our golf courses, what's next?

• Wolfrum, William K. (November 25, 2008). "William K. Wolfrum: If Scientologists can take our golf courses, what's next?". Golf News. WorldGolf.com: Golfing the Golf Course. Retrieved 2008-11-26.

Has some interesting info on the golf course at Gold Base. Cirt (talk) 11:40, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Lawsuit alleges abuses at Golden Era

• Hand, Charles (December 18, 2009). "Lawsuit alleges abuses at Golden Era". The Valley Chronicle. www.thevalleychronicle.com. Retrieved 2009-12-19.

Cirt (talk) 05:14, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

POV Photo

Sorry if this is in dispute or something, but the photo should be replaced or removed. Even if people sometimes protest there, its use is not helpful in illustrating the story or giving readers an idea what the Gold Base looks like. It is a distraction. Any thoughts? Njsamizdat (talk) 18:23, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Removing since no one contests after 7 months, Any one is welcome to crop it. Its at commons But I dont think its worth cropping The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 02:55, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Location

• Seems like this is the same location as Gilman Hot Springs, California. Probably should be linked to each other. --Dystopos (talk) 01:29, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Marty Rathbun

The article indicates that Marty Rathbun left the base by ramming a car through the security fence. When interviewed by the Tampa Bay Times, Rathbun stated that he hid with a motorcycle in the shrubbery near a security gate. When a car left through the security gate, he followed the car through the gate on the motorcycle.

http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/project/rathbun.shtml/

162.119.238.161 (talk) 16:35, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Why "Gold Base"

The ringleader for the Scientology crime syndicate L. Ron Hubbard named his compound Gold Base because the atomic number of gold is 79 and the compound's main access route is California_State_Route_79. Might be worth adding commentary on why the drug-addoled insane loon called his armed compound Gold Base. Damotclese (talk) 23:04, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I've never heard that before, and without a reliable source there's no way we can add it to the article anyway. Prioryman (talk) 23:35, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

That's why it's not mentioned, probably. :) It was discussed in the alt.religion.scientology newsgroup when Stacy Moxon was killed while being held in the underground electrical vault when Barb and David Rice (no relation) were protesting outside, about the same period when Ashley Shanner was beheaded outside on Highway 79.

There is probably little hope of getting a suitable official reference from Hubbard's mouth. Hubbard had some minimal science education, he probably saw AN-79 was gold and named it Gold Base as people suggested in a.r.s though finding a Hubbard quote is going to be difficult.

The so-called "old guard" person named "Mr. Safe" might have a suitable reference. Wish I could locate him to find what his paper documents say, and Piece of the Blue Sky might very well explain why it's called Gold Base. I need to do some homework. Damotclese (talk) 00:13, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Why The Hole -- What Motivated This Behavior

One of the things that is missing is why David M. created The Hole in the first place. Maybe it's not covered because there would be too much speculation, the opinions covering the motivation for David M. creating The Hole would need to come from people who have left the corporation which have some serious bias -- Rathbun and Rinder et al.

At the dates indicated in the article here, DM was seeing some very serious decline in revenues globally thanks in large part to the people in a.r.s assisting with the creation of web sites covering NarCONon, Criminon, and all the other fake fronts like CCHA which were able to still bring ing money.

The real world protests that were taking place before Anonymous got involved were also having a serious impact, so much so that David ordered the commission of the so-called Sporgery computer crimes to try to silemnce the people in a.r.s. (I was the one working with the FBI's Dallas HQ on the Sporgery crimes, I was the guy who got Tory "Magoo" Christianson identified as one of the individuals purchasing money orders for the commission of computer felonies.) One Anonymous got on board, revenues plummeted even more.

From DM's standpoint, disaster after disaster were piling up from 1994 when a.r.s got fully involved and all through 2000 when the Sporgery crimes were stopped by the FBI's investigations. The financial problems for Scientology and for DM himself increased tremendously after 2000 with Ava P., Helena Kobrin, Kendfrick Moxon, and Eliot Abelsom getting sanctioned by the courts from time to time for exceeding court rules, so much so that DM decided he needed actual lawyers, not "captive" lawyers.

From DM's perspective, everything is coming to an end, the empire is crumbling, revenues are less than the costs, and according to Hubbard policy, the reason is hidden SPs, PTSs, all that, thus the formation of The Hole to beat confessions out of the kingpins themselves, find out who is an enemy, find out why they're unable to "make it go right."

But the motivations for the formation of The Hole are too speculative, too non-neutral POV to include, would be my guess. It could be added as a section, but that's a whole lot of homework to get suitable, testable, falsifiable references. Damotclese (talk) 00:24, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Please do not delete discussions involving the adding of sections to the article. If you feel a section should not be added to the article, you may discuss your reasoning either here or in the approporiate user talk paces. I'll assume that removal was done in good faith. Thanks. Assume_good_faith Damotclese (talk) 21:27, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

It's an interesting question, but you are right that it's not something that can be answered without reliable sources. (Maybe the facts will come out when the Church of Scientology eventually collapses.) Some insiders have suggested to me that the breaking point was the Lisa McPherson case, where DM was reportedly in some legal jeopardy due to his personal role in the case. Prioryman (talk) 21:54, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Prioryman, let me do this... Within the next week, 7 days, I will work with some of the old timers to get details about why the place is called Gold Base and if someone like "Mr. Safe" can get the materials to me, I will update the article with a section that references the HCPL or othe document(s), and if not I will edit this entry to a short one line note that the name Gold Base may be due to the atomic numbver of gold and the fact that Gilman Hot Springs is on highway 79. :) As always, one must assume good faith so in a week I should know if there's testable references or not. Thanks! Damotclese (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

If you can come up with a source, please do - but my understanding was that until as late as the start of the 1990s, Gold Base was kept secret within the CoS, so how likely is it that it will be discussed in Scientology sources? Prioryman (talk) 22:07, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I will be tough locating any testable reference, absolutely, but there is documentation that I believe covers it. I will speak again with the Federal agent who captured Michael Meisner (a.k.a. "Agent Silver") and Gerald Bennett Wolfe (a.k.a. "Agent Gold") committing espionage inside of the Washington IRS offices. I asked Mark Bunker to interview the Officer about his capture and about the documentation seized which covered the naming of Gold Base.

The reason I mention it is because Hubbard sent dispatches back and forth between himself and Meisner during the IRS crimes, requestable through the FOIA so I think it likely that they're on the Internet somewhere. If the Federal officer does not retain copies, he can direct me to the Meisner telexes; worse case I will ask Mark Bunker about the interview to see if the naming of Gold Base was covered.

Hubbard thought himself to be clever, and his use of "code names" and playing pretend spy would have been wasted had he not crowed repeatedly about his cleverness. There's got to be a document somewhere. :) Thanks! Damotclese (talk) 22:31, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Ah damn, I have mixed The Hole and Gold Base up in my head. The reasons for creating The Hole is almost certainly the Lisa McPherson blowback but DM's problems begam in 1994 one year before her death when Arnie Lerma et al. were disclosing NOTS and OTs and such, and Scientology was losing in the mainstream press. :) Damotclese (talk) 22:36, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the amount of speculation and unsubstantiated claims that has been dominating this post. Do you have any WP:RS which will improve the article, or are you using this talk page as a forum to speculate on the undocumented motivations of various scientology leaders. Right now this entire post feels more like a smear attempt than a contribution to wikipedia.Coffeepusher (talk) 19:09, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

2 Years Later

Attempting to find testable, falsifiable references on why Hubbard named this "Gold Base" has been done from time to time over the past two years without success. The rumors are that he named it "Gold Base" because it exists along Highway 79 is because gold has Atomic Number 79, however Hubbard didn't leave any documents that are leaked to the general public which supports that speculation. Damotclese (talk) 20:40, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Issues with lead

Number of things to keep in mind, and someone with enough time can dig up decent sources if they're patient enough to find the proper citations. Officially, this is not the international headquarters -- that would be the Hollywood Guaranty Building on Hollywood Blvd, which houses all the official, legal offices of RTC, CMO, CSI, Gold, etc except ABLE, Bridge, Author Services/Galaxy which have their own buildings, and CST which has no actual office but just a private mailbox in East Hollywood at a copy shop.

Officially, the church doesn't acknowledge the existence to raw public and even to public Scientologists & staff the location is not even disclosed and most Scientologists don't know that Golden Era Productions is just one part of the base. Legally, to country and state officials, its just described as Golden Era, a production facility. They don't usually acknowledge that Gold and Int are one and the same. Actors like Beghe who've visited Gold all confirm that initially they had no idea that the compound was used for more than just producing films and videos.

That's just a few of the issues that need to be resolved. Because of the secrecy even when it comes to how the org board functions at Gold, sourcing this stuff is a headache, but probably is possible. As it stands, the article doesn't do a good job explaining how ordinary Scientologists and staff are kept out of the loop, that most don't know where it is, that you have to do the EPF again when you get promoted to Int in the Sea Org, etc etc. So far the article just broaches a fraction of all these details. Laval (talk) 13:28, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 15:51, 20 October 2017 (UTC)