Talk:Goan Catholics

Please contribute== All Goan Catholics please contribute to this page. I don't know whether the information about us (Goan Catholics) is up to wikipedia standarads standards or no. Whwtever I am doing is just to expand the page. Please improve the page. Since there is no discussion, I don't know what is right and what is wrong. So please be helpful and add your contributions.

Template:IPA

Hi, Sanfy, you substituted the romanization of the Konkani name of this territory for its pronunciation. I'm afraid your edition wasn't right.
The International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) allows us to write the pronunciation of words. It doesn't deal with letters (Roman or whatever), but with sounds. Making use of this system, the expression गोंय /ɡɔ̃j/ means that what we call Goa in English is written गोंय in Konkani, and that, according to the IPA, it is pronounced /ɡɔ̃j/. The Template:IPA is a powerful tool to do so in the WP.
Please feel free to add the romanization of the word if you wish, but preferably leaving the pronunciation too.
Kind regards, --Zack Holly Venturi (talk) 17:56, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

To Sanfy

Hello Sanfy, please make use of the "Show preview" button instead of "Save page" so that you can see the effect of your changes before making them a permanent part of the record. Cheers Rbakker99 (talk) 13:43, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Translation

“ HANV SAIBA POLTODDI VETAM

(A girl begs the boatman to take her across the river and promises to surrender to him in marriage)

DAMULEA MATTVANTUM MUZGU VAZOTA MUZGACHEA SADAR, KOLVONTU NACHOTA

CHOLTAM CHOLTAM ZALI MHAKA RATU CHOLUN CHOLUN VAREM MARUN GELI MHUJI DIVLI HANV SAIBA POLTODI VETAM, DAMULEA LOGNAK VOTAM MHAKA SAIBA VATTU DAKHOI, MHAKA SAIBA VATTU KOLONA

DAMULEA MATTVANTU KOLVONTANCHO KHELLU (2) AGA MHOJEA TARIA MAMA (2) DAMULEA MATTVANTU KOLVANTAMCHO KHELLU (2) GHE GHE GHE GHE, GHE GA SAIBA, MHAKA NAKA GO, MHAKA NAKA GO (2) HEA MHOJEA NAKANTULI NOTI, GHE GA SAIBA, MHAKA NAKA GO, MHAKA NAKA GO HEA MHOJEA PAIANTULIM PAINZONAM, GHE GA SAIBA, MHAKA NAKA GO, MHAKA NAKA GO

XINVTIM, MORGRIM, ABOLIM, MATHEAK MALLUN BHONVTOLIM TUJEA PAEAM LAGIM BOSTELIM, OI BOSTELIM

VOILEA, VOILEA DONGRAR; UDOKU KONGREM UDOKU KONGREM ZALEAR, KOLVONTU MOGREM CHOI-AIRE, CHOI-AIRE, HANV DEKHNI NACHOTAM, CHOI CHOI, CHOI (2)

BHAR ZALA XINVTEAM MOGREANCHO, XINVTEAM MOGREANCHO XINVTIM MOGRIM ZALEANT SOVAI (2) PUNN MHAKA NAKA RE (2) AGE NARI, TUJEA NAKANTULIM NOTI, NAKA SORI AGE NARI, TUJEA PAEANTULI PAIZONAM PAIEAM SORI

HANV SAIBA POLTODDI VETAM, DAMULEA LOGNAK VETAM MHAKA SAIBA VATTU DAKHOI, MHAKA SAIBA VATTU KOLONA (2)

MODDGANVAM ZAITIM IETAI GONVLIM, VINKUNKU HADDTAI SURIO DANTONNI (2) AMI GONVLIM, DUDHUVALIM, MOSRAM HADDLEAAIM GHANTA VELIM (2)

DOGIO-TIGIO BIATINNI AILEAT KUMSARAK (2) EKLEN HADDLAM KONTU ROZARACHEM DUSREN HADDLAM MANUAL VACHPACHO TISREN HADDLA EK XEVTTO TOVLOLO.

”

Someone please translate that into ENGLISH, so at least foreign readers of the page can understand it. Regards, A Prodigy ~In Pursuit of Perfection~ 09:36, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Why do you need the translation. Is it relevant to the article. --Deepak D'Souza 12:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Please Refer

I suggest editors to refer to the below mentioned articles since they all are featured articles. We should try to emulate these articles on People.

• Azerbaijani people
• Iranian peoples
• Pashtun people
• Taiwanese aborigines
• Tamil people

1999 Cuncolim events

I have removed this section again[1] as per WP:UNDUE. WP:UNDUE isn't just about how long you write a particular section but also about whether it is relevant at all. The event that took pace was a one off event, that too nearly a decade back. Taking one event and puting it will give the reader the impression that it is actuallu much larger than what it really was. If there are scholarly articles which state that caste is an important aspect of Goan Catholic society it should be included. But to take a single event and maing a mountain out of it is certaily not acceptable. --Deepak D'Souza 10:45, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Image:A Description in Konkani.jpg fair use

This image fails the "Significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." of Wikipedia:Non-free content, thus has an invalid fair use rationale. Also, " Cover art: Cover art from various items, for identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item(not for identification without critical commentary)." --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:33, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Peer review (October 2008)

Goan Catholics

Previous peer review

• A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for October 2008.

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because…

Thanks, Sanfy (talk) 14:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

• I will peer review this article shortly.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 20:01, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments by Dineshkannambadi

• The sentence Their architecture and music encompass some of the notable contributions to India and the world needs citations from reputed books on architecture. I read the section on "Architecture" at the bottom and see blog cites are used for reference. Also, you can't use an image as a citation. Blogs are best avoided unless it supports a book source.
• The very first section after the lead, "Ethnic identity", is sourced from blog sites which is not the best place to source from. One citation referes back to another wiki page and this is considered "circular reasoning". There must be some good books to source from.
• The Kadambas mentioned here are the Kadambas of Goa (10th century-1340CE), a later day branch of the Kadambas of Karnataka (4th-6th century). Yes, you are right in writing that the Kadambas were Kannadigas. Even the Goan Kadambas minted coins with Kannada legends and inscribed inscriptions in Kannada language.
• The sentence Goa was ruled by the Muslims for about 60 years before they were removed by Harihara I, of Vijayanagar Empire. is a repeat sentence.
• Is this sentence encyclopaedic? was in these districts that the Portuguese undertook their most zealous efforts to convert the local [pagans] to Christianity.
• The history section in general is poorly cited.
• In the "Geographic distribution" section, the word "many" has been used atleast 6 times. Needs a re-write.

Dineshkannambadi (talk) 22:16, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

• In the section "Language and Literature", the sentences Goan Catholics have strong feelings towards the Konkani language. This love and affection for their language can be seen when most of the Goans united and fought for Konkani as their mother tongue. needs a citation. While I am sure this claim is accurate, there must be numerous sources that mention Goan struggle to make Konkani the state language. So a citation should be easy to find.
• The sentence Today Goan Catholics have all strata of the society conversing in English and in fact taking pride in the same contradicts the above sentence on Konkani pride.
• Ambigous sentence-Goan Catholics have another set of people who are pursuing this language just for the love for it. Who are another set of people?
• Unclear sentence The first book in Konkani and any Indian language was
• I suggest you refer to a book such as these which give plenty of info on Konkani literature.

1. Various (1987) [1987]. Encyclopaedia of Indian literature - vol1. Sahitya Akademi. ISBN 8126018038.
2. Various (1988) [1988]. Encyclopaedia of Indian literature - vol2. Sahitya Akademi. ISBN 8126011947.
3. Various (1996). Encyclopaedia of Indian literature - vol 5. Sahitya Akademi. ISBN 8126012218.

• When you write Other [forms] of their literature..., you should be focussing on metres and genres, not specific book titles, OR just remove "forms" are mention important writings.
• This sentence is UNDUE and does not sound encyclopaedic-However, the relations between the upper castes and lower castes among the Goan Catholic community continues to remain strained in some parts of Goa. For instance.... Too much weightage for a news paper article and too much coverage in this article. There must be other interesting things to write about the various sections of society.

Dineshkannambadi (talk) 02:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Everthing done in accordance to Dineshkannambadi's comments.Sanfy^T.

Comments

• Modern era
  • Dr Froilano de Mello (1877-1955) did remarkable work for improving the health of the malaria-endemic city of Old Goa by mapping the entire area so as to discover the source of malaria. John Francis Ludger Gracias (1888-1969), among the first Goans to migrate to Kenya, and played a major role in the establishment of the Kenya and Uganda Railways and Harbours. He was awarded with an MBE by King Edward VIII -- one of the few honours bestowed by King Edward in his short reign. Brilliant Goan civil engineer Bismark Dias is remembered for designing the town of Vasco da Gama.
    • Remove this. A single person is not a community. If you think they are worth mentioning, the proper place is the Notable Goan Catholics section. Not the History. Kensplanet^T_C 14:03, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Done.Sanfy^T.

• Language and literature
  • Goan Catholics also have the elite people who do continue speaking Portuguese. Goan Catholics do have a set of people who are pursuing this language just for the love for it.
    • What nonsense is this. Please make it a bit professional and please provide citations. These sentences are found abundantly in blogs. Kensplanet^T_C 14:14, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Done.Sanfy^T.

• Modern era
  • In 1909 the population of Goa, was 3,65,291, out of whom, 2,93,628 (80%) were Catholics
    • This is cited with http://www.geocities.com/prakashjm45/goan-demographics.html . Geocities is not a reliable site. It should not be used here. Kensplanet^T_C 14:18, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Done.Sanfy^T.

Catholic or Chiristao

I have never heard local goans calling themselves Catholics .. they usually call themselves as christao....

I think it shud be Goynche Kristanv (IN NAGARI SCRIPT) and not as goynche catholic... Nijgoykar (talk) 08:20, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I think we should stick to Goenche Katholik,

1. Firstly check pls check V-ixxt "KatolikKhobro". V-ixxt is a Konkani weekly since 1933 so so it its sure that Goenche Katholik is also popluar.,
2. Anyhow we are talkig about Goan Catholics only, Kristanv (meaning: Christian), will also include newly converted Goan Protestants, and it is some necessary to put the exact translation of Goan Catholics. Thanks.--Sanfy^talk 08:40, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

This article is about Goan Catholics who are adhere to Roman Catholicism and not Protestant religion,and since past 470 years they have been known only as Cristãos by common people.Protestants are very new to Goa afaik,and i guess there number is not so significant either!so you can even mention about the recent converts,there is no harm in that,because you have already mentioned about there Hindu roots!

Nijgoykar (talk) 11:52, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

But it is necessary to mention the Hindu roots as the were their ancestors, as for Goan Protestants I don't have ample information about the topic, otherwise I would mention about them. If you have any information please add so. But remember add only about Goan Catholics who converted to Roman Catholics. Regarding Goenche Kristanv or Katholik, I think we should approach User:Deepak D'Souza, he has good knowledge about Wikipedia.--Sanfy^talk 13:00, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't get the point, it very clear that the article is about the Catholics and not the entire Christian communuity and hence Goenche Katholik is apropriate, adding Goenche Kristanv will be inaccuracy. The personal thing sems to be coming from you. Sanfy (talk · contribs)

About Indo-Aryans

Hardly any Goans are Indo-Aryans.. most of them are Indo-Scythians.. Its just that they speak Indo-Aryan Languages! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nijgoykar (talk • contribs) 13:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Clarification

• 1.How can converted Vaishyas be known as Gaudos?
• 2.And how can ancestors of most of the catholic be GSBs,when GSBs is a minority community?

Nijgoykar (talk) 13:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

That's because the GSB's formed a large part of Goa's population prior to the Portugese invasion, and the Roman Catholic missionaries put a greater emphasis on converting them, since they were the most influential part of the population. Joyson Noel (talk) 12:13, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Then prove it,any brahmin caste in Goa,no matter Saraswats,Karhadas,Chitpavans,Kudaldeskars,Joshis,Daivadnyas for that matter ,have always been minority since ancient times.. justify!

Nijgoykar (talk) 20:39, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for the late response. I was inactive all the while and i've just bumped into your response. I must state that what i said earlier was true.

The GSB's did form a large part of the Goan population during the 16th century. The GSB's only became a tiny minority, because large numbers of them were converted or fled to other areas during the Portuguese drive for Christianization.

I'm not an expert on the Goan Catholics. So, i can't say for certain who the ancestors of most of the modern-day Goan Catholics were.

But it is a historical and verifiable fact that most of the Konkani speaking Canara Catholic population, who trace their origins to Goa have Brahmanical ancestry, most specifically GSB ancestry.

Please read Sarasvati's Children: A History of the Mangalorean Christians by Alan Machado Prabhu, The Christian Impact on South Kanara by Kranti Farias, History of Christianity in Canara by Severine Silva, Distinguished Mangalorean Catholics 1800-2000 - A Historico-Biographical Survey of the Mangalorean Catholic Community by Michael Lobo, for more info. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 12:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Viewing Page

The box under Language which begins "Most Goan Catholics speak the Konkani language..." is broken when viewed in Safari and shows as a single line, making the page roughly five times as wide as it should be —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.61.75.128 (talk) 07:17, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Goan Catholics aren't of Portuguese descent

To the guy who keeps inserting the common misconception that Goan Catholics are of Portuguese descent. Here are a few quotes by reputed historians and authorities on Goan history.

• "Nothing is more erroneous than the common perception that all Goans have a considerable dose of Portuguese blood in their veins. The great majority are ethnically Indians, though their centuries-old adoption of the Roman Catholic religion, and of the Portuguese language and mores, together with their assumption of Portuguese names, have firmly ingrained them in the Portuguese cultural orbit." – C.R. Boxer, The Portuguese seaborne empire, 1415–1825, p. 200 (1969)
• "The spread of Christianity in the Southern Konkan was not a caste levelling process. It simply conciliated old prejudices with new privileges. A converted Brahman became a Christian in faith alone, retaining all the social rights of Hinduism, and transmitting all caste prerogatives, untainted by any admixture of foreign or low caste blood, through generations to his current aristocratic posterity." – José Gerson da Cunha, The Konkani language and literature, p. 37 (1881)
• "They gave support to Portuguese propagandists and their false allegation that Goan Christians were of mixed-blood." – Tristão de Bragança Cunha, Goa's freedom struggle: selected writings of T. B. Cunha, p. 355 (1961)

Here are some additional online sources.

• http://books.google.com/books?id=WIWZQMZA8yIC&pg=PA248#v=onepage&q&f=false
• http://books.google.com/books?id=fWlMV5lVSpYC&pg=PA75#v=onepage&q&f=false

(Please refer, "We are Indians by blood, but our culture is Indo-Portuguese".)

• http://books.google.com/books?id=6L5MxlMIcG0C&pg=PA134#v=onepage&q&f=false
• http://books.google.com/books?id=tdawAAAAIAAJ&q=Bamons+Brahmins&dq=Bamons+Brahmins&hl=en&ei=9wPJTtL8C6HY4QT1qPlI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CFQQ6AEwCA

Furthermore, there is a separate entry on Luso-Indians. Goan Catholics are a related ethnic group. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me!} 21:10, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081121204702/http://www.goatoronto.com/images/stories/stock/catholic-goan-research-paper.pdf to http://www.goatoronto.com/images/stories/stock/catholic-goan-research-paper.pdf

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External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 10 external links on Goan Catholics. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080820015433/http://hillmanwonders.com/cuisines/goa_cuisine.htm to http://www.hillmanwonders.com/cuisines/goa_cuisine.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080808135313/http://www.goacom.com/culture/konkani/kendr.html to http://www.goacom.com/culture/konkani/kendr.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120929065447/http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/swinging-images/239360/ to http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/swinging-images/239360/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090216173529/http://movies.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4101249.cms to http://movies.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4101249.cms
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081221181928/http://movies.indiatimes.com/moviereview/2691694.cms to http://movies.indiatimes.com/moviereview/2691694.cms
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091021044211/http://movies.indiatimes.com/moviereview/3653687.cms to http://movies.indiatimes.com/moviereview/3653687.cms
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080505122609/http://www.archbom.org/abos.htm to http://www.archbom.org/abos.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090623133603/http://www.goacom.com/culture/religion/gch/GoanCatholicHeritage.doc to http://goacom.com/culture/religion/gch/GoanCatholicHeritage.doc
• Added archive https://archive.is/20130222070045/http://www.catholic-goan-network.net/index.shtml to http://www.catholic-goan-network.net/index.shtml
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050204165454/http://canorientmontreal.org/aboutus.htm to http://canorientmontreal.org/aboutus.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:15, 20 October 2017 (UTC)