Talk:Glenn Miller/Archive 1

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This is an archive of Talk:Glenn Miller as of 19:01, 10 January 2007 before alterations made by User:70.114.14.25

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Some more information on Glenn Miller if you can find it of good use...

Nicole Caldwell 7/14/2005 Arts and Society- Jazz Individual Artist Glen Miller: A Goal to be Achieved

How does Iowa contribute to jazz? “Alton Glenn Miller was born in Clarinda, Iowa on March 1, 1904. But it was in North Platte, Nebraska, several years later that Glenn actually got his musical start when, one day, his father brought home a mandolin. Glenn promptly traded it for an old battered horn, which he practiced every chance he got. In fact his mother worried, ‘"It got to where Pop and I used to wonder if he'd ever amount to anything."’ In 1923, Miller entered the University of Colorado, although he spent more time traveling to auditions and playing where and whenever he could. After flunking three of his five courses one semester, Glenn dropped out to concentrate on his career as a professional musician. (1) Glenn Miller is a man with a goal to achieve; Glenn Miller has said again and again: “A band ought to have a sound all of its own. It ought to have a personality.”’ Miller started his career off by touring with several orchestras and ended up in Los Angeles where he landed a spot in Ben Pollack's group, a band that included a guy named Benny Goodman. “Benny Goodman was a world reknowned clarinetist known for his stand-offish and cheap nature and his influence in the “Swing Era.”’ Ben Pollack’s orchestra had a high demand among ballrooms, nightclubs and theaters. Here, Miller also got the chance to write some arrangements. Arriving in New York City he soon sent for, and married his college sweetheart, Helen Burger of Denver, CO in 1928, and for the next three years, earned his living as a free-lance trombonist and arranger. Glenn Miller formed his first orchestra in 1937 in New York City. The first orchestra flopped and it took a good year for Miller to formulate a well-structured ensemble. In 1938 he formed an entirely new orchestra that featured the unique “Miller sound.”(12) The “Miller sound” was produced by the clarinet holding the melodic line while the tenor sax plays the same note, and supported harmonically by three other saxophones.(1) It made Miller’s sound unique and popular. “What made Miller’s music so incredibly popular was that it was so listenable, so danceable and so easily identifiable. (the last link) Glenn Miller’s focus was always on the entire orchestra, not on individual soloists – an emphasis that permanently estranged Miller from jazz purists and led jazz critics and musicians to debunk his music, then and now. If nothing fails like success, in their eyes Miller was the biggest failure of the Swing Era… Staying on top of the music world was hectic. Fortunately, most band members were in their early 20s and withstood the rigorous schedule. Miller’s magnificent ballads brought couples together at ballrooms, jukebox hangouts or living room parties and linked them while they were separated by oceans and war. The band’s theme and most famous ballad, Moonlight Serenade, was dubbed our nation’s “second national anthem” by Dave Garroway, who hosted the all-night 1160 Club on WMAQ in Chicago during the 1940s. And, some of the band’s up-tempo numbers, such as In the Mood and A String of Pearls, were battle cries for a generation of bobby soxers. The band’s popularity persuaded 20th Century –Fox to produce two movies centering on Glenn Miller and his orchestra.” (10) One film that is particularly famous these days, the Glenn Miller Story, a film based on Glenn Miller’s life and the trials and tribulations he went through to keep a personal life and struggle with the music scene. Miller and his band gave hundreds of performances at ballrooms, theaters, and nightclubs from coast to coast, found time for several weekly radio broadcasts, and made records, records, and more records. There were record-breaking recordings as well, such as "Tuxedo Junction", which sold 115,000 copies in the first week. "In the Mood", and "Pennsylvania 6-5000", all appearing on the RCA Victor Bluebird label. In early 1940, Down Beat Magazine announced that Miller had topped all other bands in its Sweet Band Poll, capping off this seemingly sudden rise to the top. In 1942, Miller joined the United States Army Air Forces and was commissioned as a Captain. He was also appointed Director of Bands and devoted himself to reorganizing military music. Then he formed the Glenn Miller Army Air Force Band that gave over 800 performances during a 2-year period to Allied servicemen in the U.S. and overseas. On December 15, 1944, he was scheduled to fly from England to Paris to play for the soldiers who had recently liberated the city. His plane disappeared over the English Channel and was never found. (3) “Miller, a gifted arranger and a competent trombonist, died of a plane crash on December 25 [sic], 1944. According to Miller’s biographer and friend, George T. Simon, “when Miller boarded the small plane, the band leader asked Col. Baesell [the officer who arranged for the unauthorized flight] where the parachutes were. ‘“What’s the matter, Miller?”’ Baesell asked. ‘“Do you want to live forever?”’ Maj. Alton Glenn Miller was only 40 years old when he disappeared. The Iowa-born band leader left behind his wife, Helen, and their two small children—a son , Stevie, adopted in 1942, and a daughter, Jonnie (whom Miller never had a chance to see), adopted in late 1944. Both were adopted members of later generations, it is not an overstatement to say that no musical group captured the public’s attention as much Glenn Miller’s orchestra until the Beatles came along in 1964.” (12) Glenn Miller was an excellent musician and set a lot of goals. Miller is like a William Penn college student, in a sense, consistently setting new goals and sticking with it. Each and every student at William Penn feels that they can do better and Glenn Miller felt that there was a better sound out there to be expressed. I picked Glenn Miller because he has a big influenced in Iowa. Since he was born in Clarinda, IA proving that maybe one of you or me will someday be as prestigious as Glenn Miller.

The numbers are cited text. An excellent research topic

What is the copyright status of this information? Where has it come from? -- Francs2000 | Talk 22:39, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Picture

ANyone have a picture of him?

Done. --SeanO 02:53, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

George Simon

As Miller's longtime business manager, I can buy Don Haynes as someone who knew him well, but the credentials stated for George Simon are thin at best. And considering that his only other mention in the article is a possible libel on a dead man, is there anything to back up Simon's veracity? Or if Simon was, as stated in the above discussion, "friend and biographer" and was repeating speculation not his own, then the article needs a re-write to clarify. The whole business about a heart attack in a bordello is disturbing in the absence of a shred of factual backup.--Buckboard 00:29, 9 July 2006 (UTC) George Simon was briefly in Glenn Miller's first band, was a reporter for Metronome magazine and wrote articles about Glenn Miller, and knew him very well from the mid 1930s to the time of Miller's disappearance when they both served in the US army. He also wrote the respected biography, Glenn Miller and his Orchestra, from 1974. Also, not related to this topic but still interesting, he was Carly Simon's uncle. He died in 2001. I agree that whoever started the rumors about Miller's death is acting in a way dubious and offensive, but you can't legally libel a dead person in the United States. Also, Simon wasn't advocating the arguments or starting the rumors about Miller's death, he was saying they were totally wrong and unsubstantiated. 6 October, 2006 See this website for more information about G Simon: http://www.answers.com/topic/george-t-simon

Hey anon, can you please start signing your comments? It makes it easier to sort of who has said what. All you have to do is type four tildes in a row (like this: ~~~~ ) and then when you hit save, it'll fill out your information and a datestamp. This article could definitely use some stronger sourcing, unfortunately I don't have any bios on Miller in my collection. — e. ripley\^talk 16:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

What kind of sourcing? Much of the article contains publicly known facts. :) 67.11.227.124 23:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Be that as it may, each assertion of fact has to be backed up by verifiable sources, and many in this article are not. I don't know that any of them are in question, I haven't read through the article, but it is a bit light on citations for the amount of facts that are present. — e. ripley\^talk 19:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Well if you have time, can you point out the places that need more sources? I think this article is a pretty good job since the original Glenn Miller article started out pretty bare bones. I don't think birth and death dates and places where Glenn Miller lived need sources since they're public fact. Thanks. 67.11.227.124 20:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Technically, any assertion of fact should be sourced; our sourcing policy is here Verifiability; Citations. Most of the time, particular attention is paid to disputed information. I don't know if there's any disputed information in here or not, but generally that's how things work. I should add that I'm not suggesting there's any incorrect information in here -- necessarily, I don't know -- but it really does need some citations throughout, a reference section started with biographies as sources for the article, etc. — e. ripley\^talk 20:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I added a small works cited section to the end of the article. I also took out paragraphs that seemed based on opinion or unsubstantiated fact. 27 December 2006 70.114.14.25 17:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC) Does Wikipedia ever see an article about someone and say it's too long and then edit it down? I used print preview and this article is six pages if printed. I did a lot of the work on this article, because I had a lot of extra time on my hands. Just curious if there's a chance it's going to be edited. Just wondering what Wikipedia's policy is on article length. Happy New Year.70.114.14.25 05:01, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Information about Glenn Miller's rankings on Billboard from 1938-1943

I know Glenn Miller had hits all the way up until 1943, but does anyone know how to verify this? Also, the article makes claims about chart positions for "In The Mood" and "Tuxedo Junction" but I can't seem to get any backup evidence on the internet. Thanks. 70.114.14.25 02:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I've got a book called Pop Hits 1940-1954 by Joel Whitburn. It has all the pre-1955 Billboard peak chart positions for Glenn Miller in it, along with anyone else who made the US singles charts from 1940 to the end of 1954, based on the actual charts. Billboard didn't publish a best-selling singles chart that segregated the individual versions of each song until 1940; before then, the song was what charted, not the record. The Pop Hits 1940-1954 book is as authoritative as his Top Pop Hits book dealing with charts from 1955-present. (Whitburn put out another book based on pre-rock music called Pop Memories 1890-1954, but a lot of the chart information comes from other sources, and some of it is pretty dubious.) I'll be happy to do lookups or add what you need. As for Miller's success on the charts, it was enormous; off the top of my head, the first #1 song on the first singles sales list in 1940 was a Miller recording, and I think only Bing Crosby was more successful on the charts in the 1940s, even with most of Miller's chart activity coming from 1940-43. Cheemo 05:19, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Family

I am requesting a section for information on his family, his kids, mother, brother, wife, etc. It seems that such information is present in other wiki articles but non-existent in this one with the exception of the one mention of his daughter requesting a memorial in Arlington.--68.207.206.69 08:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

What part of the article would you like the information to appear about his family?70.114.14.25 14:49, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Parents: Lewis Elmer and Mattie Lou Cavender Miller Siblings: Brothers Dean and Herb, Sister Irene Married: in 1928 to Helen Burger Children: son Stevie and daughter Jonnie, both adopted http://www.glennmillerstore.com/about/facts.htm 70.114.14.25 16:17, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[ Herb Miller Orch ] né: John Herb Miller (he used the form: J. Herb Miller) b. 1915, d. 1987. Age: 72 (Stroke) Overview Herb Miller, Glenn Miller's younger brother, was born in North Platte, Nebraska, and, like Glenn, studied music in High School. Herb worked his way through college by playing the trumpet. He spent a short spell working in his brother's band, doubling as trumpeter and also as business manager. Herb then accepted an offer to play trumpet with Charlie Spivak. Herb did have a band of his own in the early 1940s. In 1943, he and his band appeared in a movie called "Spotlight Scandals," starring Harry Langdon (about a year before he died), and featuring singer Bonnie Baker. William Beaudine was the director. Late in the 1950s, Herb formed his band and toured the U.S. with appearances in hotels and ballrooms, including the Aragon Ballroom in Ocean Park, CA, the Jerry Jones Ballroom, and the Rendezvous Ballroom in Salt Lake City, UT. Yet, despite Herb's best efforts, the band only met with moderate success. The only album cut by the band, in America, was on Herb's own label, Millertone. While Herb's band never came even remotely close to the fame that his older brother Glenn achieved, it is still active and quite popular in England today (1999). After WWII, Herb settled in Pacific Grove, California, and made that his home base for about 25 years.

Mr. John Lovejoy, a former student of Herb's and onetime member of his band, recalls: "Herb didn't form his band while his brother was alive, and not until many years after his brother's death. He was so devastated by his brother's disappearance that he got out of the commercial music business and moved to Pacific Grove, where he got a job as an elementary and junior high school music teacher in the Pacific Grove Unified School District.

"I first met Herb when I was in fourth grade and became a beginning trumpet student of his. Herb's son, John, ( -John Arthur Miller, who today still leads the Herb Miller Orchestra in England), was my best friend in grammar school. Herb was a very talented music teacher, gruff but fair, and the kids all loved him. He also was the leader of the Monterey Civic Band, to which most of us Herb Miller Orchestra members belonged. (NB: Mr Lovejoy has advised that circa 2002, the orchestra was re-named the "John Miller Orchestra".)

"Herb, for some reason, decided in the late 1950s to form his own band, and his own children were a part of it. John (known as 'Jackson') played bass and sang; Mary Luann, his eldest daughter, who went by 'Luann', also sang and played piano; Richard 'Richie' Miller, his younger son, played trumpet; and Janet, or 'Jannie,' his youngest child, sang. His wife, Ann, was band manager. Some of the rest of us were his former students who were still in high school or had recently graduated; other members were area teachers. One of his trumpet players, Tony Venza (whose playing sounded like Harry James), drove a moving van for a living.

"Initially, Herb was quite ambivalent about using his brother's fame to boost his own image. He actually used to claim that his band and Glenn's were not at all alike. But, in fact, they were almost identical. Herb looked and talked like Glenn ('And now, something a little old, new, borrowed and blue...'), although he was shorter in stature. He played Glenn's most famous songs, and his own arrangements sounded just like Glenn's. The only difference was that he used only two trombones instead of four, as Glenn did.

"The first record Herb made was called 'First Steps Of A New Miller' on the Millertone label. It was a failure, of course, since he paid for it out of his own pocket, and distribution was limited. And, of course, even in the 1950s-'60s, his music was dated. He thought it was because of rock and roll, which he fervently believed was a communist plot. He reasoned that the communists introduced rock and roll into American culture in order to put 'legitimate' musicians out of work and thereby ruin the American economy.

"Herb had a few other idiosyncrasies, too. For instance, when people found out he was Glenn's brother, they would inevitably mention Glenn's death. Herb would explode, 'Glenn's not dead! Don't ever say that again!' Later, a few years after he'd started his own band, he seemed to have accepted his brother's death. That's when he started drinking and when he started trading on his brother's name.

"After moving to England, he really went overboard on comparing himself to Glenn. He even had a poster made up with him posing exactly like the famous picture of Glenn, holding a trombone and looking over his shoulder. This was kind of strange because Herb's main instrument was the trumpet.

"Herb was one of the most intense and driven people I've ever known. And, he was continually disappointed about the fate of his band. Once, we played at the Sheraton Palace Hotel in San Francisco for a big party thrown by Henry Kaiser, the big aluminum magnate. Kaiser had 'a few too many' and, during a break told Herb he loved the band so much he was going to send us all to Hawaii, all expenses paid, to play for some other big shindig of his. But Kaiser never got in touch with Herb and would not return his phone calls.

"Herb went through some very down times after starting his own band. He began drinking heavily (after lecturing us time after time on the evils of alcohol and drugs) and lost everything, even his marriage. When Herb was at his worst in Pacific Grove, he was reduced to living in the garage of the family of a girl who had been one of my classmates. In a strange coincidence, her younger brother, Clayton Freeman Jr., eventually ended up holding the same job Herb had, - teaching music for the Pacific Grove Unified School District. Later, I heard that Herb and John were working for a circus, with Herb playing in the band and John doing duty as ringmaster.

"Sometime in the late 1960s or early 1970s, Herb and John moved to England, where Herb started another band, which became successful and is currently (1999) led by John. The band recorded at least two more records in England. (An excerpt from one was recently (1999) heard on 'The Swingin' Years' -- a National Public Radio (USA) show hosted by Chuck Cecil.)

Herb died in 1987 of a massive brain hemorrhage while living in a boardinghouse with John.

John Miller's band, formerly known as the Herb Miller Orchestra, was renamed the John Miller Orchestra around 2002. It is still successfully performing, and well beloved, in England today, and tours throughout Europe. This entry on Herb Miller was graciously submitted by Mr. John Lovejoy, former trumpeter in the Herb Miller Orchestra. http://nfo.net/usa/m3.html 70.114.14.25 16:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Also this site is about a lawsuit brought by Glenn Miller's children versus the Glenn Miller production company, however I am unclear who won, I am assuming the children lost the case from the text. http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:8LoZTEArKRAJ:www.ca9.uscourts.gov/coa/newopinions.nsf/96058D191C528691882571AF007F7F09/%24file/0455874.pdf%3Fopenelement+glenn+miller+cmg+worldwide+lawsuit&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1 I am beginning to notice that in almost every web article I read about Glenn Miller's children, it begins by saying they are his "adopted" children. I am not sure why that makes a difference sixty years after they were born, adopted and presumably started families of their own. 70.114.14.25 21:22, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

This is a really good site too: http://www.bigbandlibrary.com/glennmillerparttwo.html

This comes from that site:

"Glenn Miller AAF Band chronology - select events:

Oct. 7, 1942 - Miller reported for duty with Army Specialist Corps (later dissolved into Army).

Mar. 20, 1943 - The 418th AAF Band (aka, "Glenn Miller Army Air Force Band"), activated at Yale University, New Haven, CT. (Band unit later known by other designations.)

Jun. 29, 1944 - Band arrived in London.

Jul. 24, 1944 - Miller promoted from Captain to Major.

Dec. 23, 1944 - Telegram informed Helen Miller that her husband was "missing."

Aug. 12, 1945 - Band arrived in New York City.

Nov. 17, 1945 - Final performance of the band, "I Sustain the Wings" broadcast, from Bolling Field, Washington, D.C."

by George Popa from his website.70.114.14.25 12:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

RE: Trivia

Does anyone like or hate the new trivia entry where they call Glenn Miller a "smegger"? I would go with "strongly dislike", but maybe it's not for me to say. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hipsterdoofus1 (talk • contribs) 20:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

RE: Requests for different method of footnoting and acknowledging sources

Please explain what methods to use if these footnotes and works cited are not correct. 24.160.139.154 03:02, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I changed the sources from the book names to the book authors, with the in line credits. 67.11.169.152 03:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

True Cause of Death

I have read in several books now,that Miller died in a brothel in Paris and that the story about his disappearing over the Channel was faked to not lower Allied troop morale. Those were all German books, however, has anything like this been published in the Anglosphere? Kennelly 13:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I have read multiple times the exact same thing: that Miller died in a drunken brawl in a

Paris brothel. This is featured in print in "The Mammoth encyclopedia of the unsolved" (wilson/wilson) amongst many other books. -bob

Wilson's wasn't writing for accuracy, he was writing for sales results. Binksternet (talk) 15:36, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Works Cited being deleted

I mean this in the nicest way possible, but I am totally confused on how to properly cite sources for this article. I thought the "Works Cited" section would be a way, combined with the footnotes that go to corresponding websites in the text, to honestly cite the sources for the information in this article. If "Works Cited" is deleted, please tell me how to cite the sources. 67.11.169.152 21:13, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

As many times as Tex Beneke is mentioned in the article, it might be noted that he did significant vocal work with the band. He is identified as both singer and instrumentalist in his own named article; but even though he was not a featured vocalist like Ray Eberle, he sang frequently and well.Opaanderson 03:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Tex Beneke was frequently referred to as an imitator of Coleman Hawkins. Also, people tend to be either really wild about his voice or consider it mediocre. 209.184.113.129 20:21, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Glenn Miller/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Talk:Glenn Miller/Comments Someone start "assessing". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.91.193.250 (talk) 01:46, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Last edited at 01:47, 27 February 2013 (UTC). Substituted at 14:51, 1 May 2016 (UTC)