Talk:Ging Gang Goolie/Archive 1

Archive 1

Myths? regarding Ging gang goolie, primarily: Robert Baden-Powell as the originator

Introduction

Robert Baden-Powell (RB-P) is claimed all over the web as the originator of the “Ging gang goolie” song (for the event 1st World Jamboree in 1920). There are today 21.300 hits when googling Baden-Powell and "Ging-gang", whereby Wikipedia seems to be the largest original source. As far as we can see there are nowhere any reliable sources based on historical evidence quoted as basis for this statement. It is regarded as an undisputable, encyclopedic fact.

Our background

We, my twin brother and me (born 1947), have during several years researched this song, its origin, its possible meaning and its road to fame. The sources have been libraries and archives inside and outside Scandinavia as well as contacts with linguists and with the music industry. And of course the web. Our dedication has been boosted by a family tradition to sing “Ging gang goolie” (Scandinavian spelling, same melody) at family gatherings (started well before 1950 with our grandfather, 1882-1960), plain curiosity and a zeal for scientific research, in other words to find and evaluate relevant evidence.

We now want to share our findings of this research, however we are newcomers to wiki editing. And English is not our mother tongue.

UK Scout Association statement

Having doubts regarding RB-P’s role in introducing “Ging gang” to the Western world, we went to the root source on scouting and RB-P and asked the UK Scout Association Archive & Heritage Manager, Daniel Scott-Davies, about "Ging gang goolie". He says in mail (quotation on the web allowed by him):

“As far as I can see it wasn't performed at the 1920 Jamboree as it doesn't appear in the programme or the official 'Jamboree Song Book'. There is no mention in Lord Baden-Powell's correspondence on the song so I would conclude that he wasn't the creator or introducer of the song.”

Earliest historical evidence

Further, we have found that RB-P could not have written the song during 1920 because the song existed much earlier. Findings below as per Dec 2011.

• The earliest printed evidence (in Scandinavian spelling) on the song dates from 1905 : 1905 new year´s cabaret program and music sheet by Axel Engdahl in Gothenburg, Sweden, ref Swedish Royal Library in Stockholm, Sweden.

• The next references (also Scandinavian) date from 1918: “Skogisvisor 1918” (song book for a student body in Stockholm, Sweden), and from 1922 “Beväringsvisor och Marschtrallar” (Swedish book with soldier songs and other).

• The song is documented 1924 in Scandinavian scout movements with song books in Denmark and Sweden (references available).

Correction: An even earlier Danish scout song book from 1919 has turned up Brommabo (talk) 13:09, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Correction: A Swedish scout song book from 1923 with the song has turned up Brommabo (talk) 06:24, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

• Further, the above mentioned song book “Skogisvisor 1918” claims that the song was sung already in the 1890-ies! by the student body.

In comparison the very earliest English song book for scouts with “Ging gang goolie” was issued in 1957: The 'Gilwell Camp Fire Book' (ref Daniel Scott-Davies of the UK Scout Association).

Correction: The British Library has sampled their collection of British scout song books. The song turns up somewhat earlier, 1952, in "The Scout Song Book" (Compiled by P R Greenfield) by the Boy Scouts Association (Great Britain), but not in earlier scout song books from 1912, 1928, 1929 and 1938. Brommabo (talk) 06:16, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Conclusion: myth

So the story of Baden-Powell, World Jamboree 1920 and “Ging gang goolie” would seem a modern myth. Consequently, all the intentions and activities attributed to RB-P regarding this song would be considered void.

May be a myth but even a myth now (as copyfree folckculture) is useful as election song, seen ::

   Oompah, oompah, oompah (here fists up)
   Ging rich goolie goolie goolie goolie woosha,
   Ging gang goo, ging gang goo.
   Ging rich goolie goolie goolie goolie woosha,
   Ging gang goo, ging gang goo.
   Hayla, oh hayla shayla, oh hayla shayla, hayla shayla, oh-ho,(here coinspur)
   Hayla, oh hayla shayla, ohhayla shayla, hayla shayla, oooh.
   Shally wally, shally wally, shally wally, shally wally (at handshake)
   Oompah, oompah, oompah, oompah (as up & loop)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.15.123.229 (talk) 21:22, 23 January 2012 (UTC) 

Yes, the song is a very good song for several kinds of purposes. And we have a high degree of liberty at Wikipedia making it possible to edit anything anywhere.Then again, I would believe this is a different topic (various versions of the song, their possible purposes along with dance/gesture tips, etc) that might deserve its own section under this Talk. Then this section could focus on discussing the various myths around its origin as is hinted by the section header and the list of suggested questions for discussion below. Brommabo (talk) 08:01, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Suggested questions for discussion

1. Now we would put the question to all contributors to this and other web articles on “Ging gang goolie” and its various language versions: what historical evidence (correspondence, diaries, biographies, sheet music, song books and other from the period 1890-1930) do you have to support the statement that RB-P was the originator of “Ging gang goolie”? (Obviously it would be of interest to identify historical evidence - perhaps even earlier than 1890 - for other candidates than RB-P, and for the song´s early migration.)
2. Another question: If the Baden-Powell claim then is a myth, how can we bust it (bearing in mind that the evidence we have quoted above is not easily available - mainly century old books and documents mainly in regular archives and most often in Scandinavian languages - and our findings may be regarded as part original research)? And - the myth is very widely spread!
3. And another one, what about the other statements on the web relating to “Ging gang goolie”:
   1. Claim that Mozart music has been used: we believe the first few measures (later repeated a couple of times in different keys) of the Allegro of his 1st symphony are referred to here; yes, there are similarities, so there might be some influence. On the other hand there are similarities to other non-Mozart music too.
   2. “Exotic” places are claimed as origin: yes, there are several suggestions (Brazil, Guyana, S. Africa, Iroquois tribes in N America, India) so there seems to be a need to label the song as exotic and thereby possibly make it more exciting. As far as we can see, no historical evidence is presented for these claims.
   3. Meaning of the lyrics (has already been discussed here at Wikipedia), e g intended vulgar connotations hidden in the lyrics: yes, there are lots of interpretations in different languages, the way any short words must turn up as vulgar in at least one language. Until the origin of the song has been verified, the pragmatic view suggests the lyrics are plain gibberish.
4. And a final one (in order to avoid re-introducing the myth-s): Why, by whom, when and in what context was the song attributed to RB-P, in other words: who gained on institutionalizing the myth and further glorifying RB-P? Brommabo (talk) 18:19, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, you have made some excellent points. I've changed "written by Robert Baden-Powell..." to "said to be written by...". Have you considered publishing your findings in a secondary source (other than Wikipedia)? Wikipedia has a no original research policy, so we need some reliable references. utcursch | talk 04:39, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Good that that claim is changed. Thanks a lot.

I have approached h2g2, mudcat.org and grandfolkies.com and some other places that seem to be hubs on 1800-1900 song culture, told them the gist of this Talk and invited them here. Likewise I have invited WikiProjects Songs and Scouting.

1. Yes, we (me and my brother) have considered publishing - and here in Wikipedia. We (at our age: 64) actually do not see much use in building an article somewhere on the web with same content and then copying it, using it as "secondary reference". To us it would really be circular evidence of the same kind that seems to have supported the content in the current article on Ging gang goolie. So I discussed the OR issue on the Helpdesk page (Jan 11th, now transluced) and got the comment that the reference to the Swedish Royal Library is sufficient for adding the documented origin of the song to the article (1905 and Axel Engdahl). Although the document is hard to retrieve and read (in Swedish). Perhaps I can scan it to the article?
2. How to use the UK Scouting Association statement about RB-P (not him originator) I do not know right now. Use their complete statement? Suggestions?
3. Re geographical origin it is worthwhile commenting, possibly adding that this is typical for migrating myths that exciting "facts" are added en route (ref Mozart claim could be of same nature - this claim should to my mind be withdrawn completely)
4. Re possible vulgarisms, I believe the conclusion made in my and previous Talk contributions (short words may take on vulgar connotations in at least one language - believe me, I have been involved in naming products for global markets) is worthwhile mentioning.
5. The elephant legend should well be kept in the next article version, there are already many myths/sagas/legends referred on Wikipedia so why not a modern one?
6. I believe the reference to a Portuguese version of Wikipedia (h2g2?) should be deleted, circular reference.
7. Then I wonder about the Grenda Walton reference, page 140 in a book. This book is not available in libraries, but can of course be bought. I wonder very much what it says: is it the text of the song only and/or does it give time and other circumstances for early performance of the song? Brommabo (talk) 09:14, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I notice a grammatical change has been entered in the summary of the elephant legend in the Article. Else the discussion waves do not seem to be very high on Ging gang goolie. Personally, I would be very grateful if any of the suggested questions for discussion above as well as the suggested changes above to the Article would be discussed in this Talk. For those interested in the possible OR and secondary sources "issue": I have approached several folklore organisations (for UK, Scandinavia, and international) and asked about their interest in publishing our findings on their resources (web, journal); no replies so far. Brommabo (talk) 10:11, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

New findings

We (me and my twin brother) have been able to find a recording of the song from 1908 (southern Sweden) and ascertained via biographical notes and another recording that the song was established as camp fire song in Sweden already 1910 (+/- a couple of years).

Further: Grenda Walton (author of the book referred to in the article) says she sang the song as girl scout in UK 1947-1950. Thus the song had propagated in UK before the above mentioned UK scout song book 1957.

Further again: an old research track, that has gained more credibility (referred in a Swedish local culture series of books - the applicable issue was published 1964) maintains that the song has Finnish/Swedish origin (bear hunters´song) and may date back a couple of centuries!? If this hypothesis would be true, then there exists also a trustworthy translation of the lyrics. We are right now tracking down the sources of this book.

Last but not least: we have been invited to publish our findings in an official folklore magazine, thus the primary source and original research discussion can end now.

Question: would anybody know where to find a detailed list of which songs and nursery rhymes (forgetting tales, stories and other folklore) that were collected and discussed by Peter and Iona Opie (detailed references asked for: not only general ones like Oxford Bodleian Library or Lilly Library in Indiana)?Brommabo (talk) 08:13, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Have you looked at Iona and Peter Opie? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:29, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes I have, that´s the way I found the libraries mentioned, which store the collections of the Opies. Their bible on English nursery rhymes "The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes" originally from 1952, edited 1997, (at http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=77408567) does NOT include Ging gang goolie. Brommabo (talk) 06:16, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

New findings again

The bear hunter song of Swedish-Finnish-Sami origin seems to be backed up by very flimsy evidence, thus it may be another myth that has succeeded in gaining acceptance, this time locally in the Nordics since the 1960-ies. Another myth again seems to be the Guayanan origin, spelt out by school song books in the USA from about 1970 and onwards. In the absence of trustworthy tracks of origin before the early beginning of the 20th century, we have continued with musical cousins of "Ging gang goolie" focusing songs that share the same melody and that may have only some text or other components in common. "Oompah" seems to be important in this context. That reasoning has lead us to songs used for singing games ("Qui qua" or "Oh Nicodemo", "Oh politi politaska", etc) possibly with a root from 19th century pseudo-Latin in Germany, and influences derived from Afro-American show business during the latter part of the 19th century (cake walk, minstrel show, etc).

Our article on the subject, in the form of a status report discussing various tracks, seems to have been accepted.Brommabo (talk) 13:09, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Article published

An article on the subject was published in December 2012 in the "Noterat", an annual magazine by "Svenskt Visarkiv" (Centre for Swedish Folk Music and Jazz Research, a department within the governmental "Statens musikverk" = Music Development and Heritage Sweden). Authors: me and my brother and a retired Finn with historical and folkloristic hobbies.

The article may be summarized as:

Four different tracks of origin cum social context are presented: the Finnish-Sami track possibly dating back several hundreds (thousands?) of years, the Student track possibly dating back to the early 1890-ies, the Cabaret track which boasts the earliest documented evidence of all four tracks at 1905 in Gothenburg, Sweden, and the Scout track with scouts movement founder Baden-Powell as suggested writer/introducer of the song. The Finnish-Sami track is shown as unproven, while the Baden-Powell connection is disclosed as a myth. None of the remaining two tracks (Student and Cabaret) has turned out as representing THE original, besides these two tracks both show influences from late 1800 Afro-American show business. The question of the origin is still unresolved.

The migration of the song was boosted when it eventually was adopted by the international scouts movement and it has reached all continents. The musical relatives of the song often have three common denominators: the melody, the concepts “oompah” and “goolie” or their equivalents.

Brommabo (talk) 14:22, 7 January 2013 (UTC) Brommabo (talk) 14:32, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Is that article available on-line? And the word you have translated here as "track", is that Swedish "upplaga", that could be translated as "version"? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:21, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Article: not available on line, unfortunately, only as paper magazine in Swedish

Track: Each track is defined by its main social context irrespective of country, e. g. the Scout track encompasses various camp and outdoor activities where the song has been used. Most tracks start (as we see it right now) around the change from the 19th century into the 20th. The tracks are parallell in time, the youngest one is the Finnish-Sami track (started probably in the 1950-ies) although its supporters claim it to be oldest. Track is not equivalant to the Swedish words "version" or "upplaga". Within each track there a several versions of the song. There are tracks not included in the article (like the Guyana one mentioned above) because no supporting information pre 1950 has been found, in spite of serious research Brommabo (talk) 18:04, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks for your prompt replies. I was unaware of the use of the word "track" in this context. Is it a standard English term in song/ oral research? Is there a Swedish word that is used for this purpose? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:02, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Re "track" ref. e.g. Oxford or Webster dictionaries. My old Webster (paperback edition from 1975) says among others for nouns: 1. mark left in passing, as a foot print, wheel rut, etc, 2. a path or trail, 3. a sequence of ideas, events, etc. And so forth. So it is very much standard English for whatever. Cf. also detective stories where "track" and "trail" and "trace" often are used as synonyms (funny they are so homonymous). Further, researching origin and migration of any subject (like "Ging gang") is very much like unfolding a crime story or investigating a set of genealogical paths.

Besides, I wonder, would you, Martinevans123 - or somebody else - have comments re our summarized findings and possible re other paths of origin or re social aspects of the song. Personally, I am very much interested in how the myth Baden-Powell as "Ging gang" introducer/composer started on the web without much concrete evidence. I would certainly appreciate contributions on that subject. Apparently the h2g2 article on "Ging gang" (which seems to be the founding for the existing wikipedia article started Nov. 2006) was published Sept. 2006 and its editor (ref "Conversation" at h2g2) refers to "trusted websites" as sources without being specific. So somebody picked up the unfounded tradition from the 1940-ies and put it onto internet.

Finally, it seems the wikipedia article is now due for thorough revamping. However, in the short and medium term it will not give much effect since the content of the existing article has been copied and translated into umpteen thousand web quotations. Brommabo (talk) 08:57, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you - I see now exactly what you mean by "track". I might well have put "path of origin" also, or something like that, I'm not sure. I really do not feel myself qualified to comment on your research, which does sound, second-hand at least, to have been very rigorous. Neither can I offer any additional comment on the (apparent) Baden Powell connection/ myth. Yes, it's amazing how what's written here can suddenly appear to be "the consistent truth" all across the internet. A kind of paradox. There are so many Wikipedia mirror-sites around now, that I'd suggest any re-vamp should happen as soon as possible. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:15, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Now two years have passed since the last real changes to the Talk and the Article at Wikipedia. No more discussions have turned up. No evidence has come forth re B-P´s involvement. Thus we now within short will make the intended revamp of the Wikipedia articleBrommabo (talk) 11:48, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Original Research discussed above removed per WP:GREATWRONGS

Brommabo, while I admire your dedication to dispel a myth, Wikipedia is not the place to make such a point or revise history. See WP:GREATWRONGS for details. Since you are the author of the source, republishing it here is not appropriate at all and there is a fairly strong case that you have too strong a WP:COI to be editing this article in any sort of a neutral manner.

on Wikipedia, you’ll have to wait until it’s been reported in mainstream media - not an article or book you got published. Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought or original research. "Wikipedia is behind the ball – that is we don't lead, we follow – let reliable sources make the novel connections and statements and find WP:NPOV ways of presenting them if needed.

As such, I have removed that section. Please do not restore it. The Dissident Aggressor 21:16, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Vulgar?

The idea that BP wrote a vulgar song is preposterous. The same sound usally has multiple meanings in various languages and if you look long enough, you can find one for almost any syllable. Rlevse 16:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the song is not really considered vulgar now, but in past some critics did speculate about sexual references in the song, as pointed out in the references. utcursch | talk 02:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I've only just joined Wiki and I don't know how it works, so please be patient. You appear to have lifted most of the text of this article from my h2g2 entry (which you have quoted in your references). I'm naturally very flattered by your excellent choice of a source, but for irritating legal reasons, please could I ask you to write a little more of it in your own words? <cheers> Icy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Icynorth (talk • contribs)

I don't see any of the content that is lifted verbatim from [1]. Can you please be more precise? You can also remove it yourself. utcursch | talk 15:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

New findings: older cousins on the European Continent, research strategies

German “ancestry” from 1901

Our article in the music ethnological journal the “Noterat” 2012 summed up that two tracks were myths/hoaxes (Baden-Powell as author/initiator and the Finnish bear hunters’ song). Whereas neither of the other two major tracks (student and cabaret) was conclusive. Now, a recent finding points to a combination of these two latter tracks. It is about a song that would have been performed in academic circles in Germany at informal and formal gatherings. This student and drinking song “Ponié ponié poniassa” (Anstich-Lieder, Meyer 1901, first edition) contains all the targeted components re score and lyrics. In particular the score is nearly identical to later musical cousins.

1.ǀǀ: Ponié, ponié, poniássa run, qua quí qua quá :ǀǀ
      o Nikodemo, o Schermakunqua, 
      o Nikodemo Schermakunqua unqua unqua
2. Politás, politás, politássa run, qua quí qua quá u. s. w.
3. Quonni génni, quonni génni, quonni nássa run, qua quí qua quá u. s. w.

Thus it brings us finally beyond the previously oldest documented version of our nonsense song, the Gothenburg version of 1905 (“Niggers´ Morning Song”).

ǀǀ: Hinkan,  kolikolikolikolifejsan, Kinkan koh,  kinkan koh :ǀǀ
ǀǀ: Ava, illa shava O, illa shava Kolifejs! :ǀǀ
Tjolafalla, tjolafalla!	

By comparative text analysis (key words in the right sequence for some 25 samples from 1896 to 1999) and by comparative phrase analysis (score and lyrics compared bar by bar) we have ascertained that the “Ponié” song is very much related to all the nonsense songs in our scope: “Ging Gang Gooli”, “Kinkan” (= ”Niggers´ Morning Song”), “Hi Politi Politaska”, “Kiliwatch”, “Em Pom Pi”, “O Nicodemo”.

German cousin from 1896

An even earlier possible cousin is the song "Ginggang ..." which was documented in another student and drinking song book, Neue und alte Anstichlieder, Lahr, 1896. This song (only lyrics available right now) has similarities with the 1905 Gothenburg version of the song. Some major lyrics markers are there and in the correct positions (English transcription): “ginggang”, “witski” (= “watcha”), “bau” (= “goo”), “bum bau” (= “oompah”). The two phrases are sung twice, as was the custom also 1901 and 1905 - and is today.

Ginggang, ginggang, bumwidiwitzki, ginggang Katterma, ginggang Katterma.
Ginggang, ginggang, bumwidiwitzki, ginggang Katterma bau. 
Bau bau bau bum! bau bau bau bum! Dacapo

A documented claim by Swedish students in 1918 that the song was performed in the early 1890-ies by Swedish forestry students thus makes very much sense now. (This 1896 song version was performed in Germany nearly a quarter of a century before the alleged song writer Baden Powell and the scouting world had its 1920 International Jamboree....)81.230.206.36 (talk) 15:36, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Early cousin presence in UK

It is interesting that two now “proven” “Ging Gang”/”Kinkan” cousins both existed in UK long before the first documented UK version of “Ging Gang Gooli”: “Hi Politi Politaska” (before WW1 say the Opies) and “Kiliwatch” (at least 1926 in a Nicholson scout song book). An identified Japanese scout is presumed to have picked up a version of “Ging Gang” in UK 1929 (Gilwell Park and/or the international Jamboree). It then seems a paradox that the song took so long before it was documented in a UK songbook (BSA 1952) and that the song eventually became attributed to Baden-Powell (deceased in 1941, rumored by the end of the 1940-ies to have written the song, still the 1952 BSA songbook plainly states: “Scout traditional”).

Two sub-families

Further, the analysis shows that there are two distinct sub-families:

• type Nicodemo in which phrase B starts with the word “Nicodemo” and most often phrase A and/or phrase B includes the "Oompah" word; this family embraces among others the “Em Pom Pi” variants
• type Kinkan in which phrase A most often starts with an extra word, resembling the word "Kinkan" (the last expression in phrase A of the Nicodemo type: “qui qua”?), further phrase A and/or phrase B seldom includes the "Oompah" word, finally phrase B starts with "eela" or similar (instead of “Nicodemo”) and often ends with an extra word of type "shalli-walli". The “Oompah”, though, might be performed as background or chorus.

Present research strategies

The “Ponié” song of 1901 and the “Ging gang” of 1896 are by far the present best missing links into the 19th century. We are aware that the songs we are finding should be regarded as the documented representative for a group of similar songs from the same time and geographical area. In some cases the representative might have "dominating genes" that strongly influence the content and form of successors and cousins. So it is hard to talk about one and only one ancestor. Right now we are following three search strategies:

1. Possible cousins (ancestors?) in the 1880/1890-ies in German-speaking Europe: Here in particular student and drinking songs are of interest. Anstichlieder seems to be the keyword; We have so far screened Meyer 1901 , Gimmerthal 1896, and von Moritz Schauenberg 1901. We are looking further into the Allgemeneines Deutsches Kommersbuch, however these books are not supposed to include drinking and provocative songs. A 1918 German article (Georg Schläger) discusses among others how one of the possibly related standard elements of Ging Gang (corresponding to “watcha”) might be traced back a couple of centuries to an interchange of student and children songs/rhymes.
2. Locations between 1910 and 1960 for “Em Pom Pi” and “O Nicodemo”, in particular on the European Continent: so far found one in US (1930) and some from the late 30-ies and onwards on the Continent. Here children and youth song books seem of interest; clap dances and similar. We have been looking at e g Helmut Segler 1992, Tänze der Kinder in Europe, and Iona and Peter Opie, 1985, The Singing Game and other Opie works.
3. First documented release between 1920 and 1952 of the international standard “Ging Gang Gooli” in particular in UKBrommabo (talk) 03:39, 6 May 2015 (UTC). Here the Hackney (from 1921 -) and the Arthur Poyser (from 1912 -) and Sydney H. Nicholson scout song book editions are of great interest, among others. The 1947 Poyser Open Air Song Book mainly contains Poyser´s own contributions and no “Ging Gang Gooli” or similar. As said previously “Ging Gang Gooli“ seems to have been published in the Gilwell Camp Fire Book and other BSA books in the 1950-ies for the first times. We are also looking for song occurrences on UK grounds of “Kiliwatch” and “Hi Politi Politaska” in the same period.

We invite interested readers to discuss within these areas.Brommabo (talk) 11:52, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

The planned revamp of the article may unfortunately not include these recent findings, due to the non-OR principle (Original Research) Brommabo (talk) 18:25, 26 April 2015 (UTC)Brommabo (talk) 06:13, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

The story of the Great Grey Ghost Elephant, a Copyright Dilemma?

This story represents possibly a copyright dilemma, now several years old. About 50% of the present text as of 2015-05-19 are copied chunks out of the original story text in English, although a reference is made to a Portuguese scouting site

http://inkwebane.cne-escutismo.pt/Curiosidades/Sabiasque/Ahist%C3%B3riadacan%C3%A7%C3%A3oGingGangGoolie/tabid/270/Default.aspx.

This web page is a 100%? translation into Portuguese of the presumed complete original story (including instructions) along with reference to the original publishing in "The Leader" 1991 (the Scouts Canada´s magazine at the time) and the author. No reference is made to permission by the author or Scouts Canada. The web site seems dead, other web pages of the site are not available any longer!? At least not to me.

The Wikipedia article also includes reference to "The Leader" 1991 and the author.

The full? text of the story (presumably very close to the original, i.e. including instructions) is available in a song book on the internet, at a site of a third party.

https://halifaxukulelegang.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/campfire-song-book.pdf

There it says that "Copyright is not violated if using this resource for non-profit campfire purposes". No reference is made to permission by the author or Scouts Canada.

Now it can be assumed that the story (including instructions) has made its way into various scouting manuals since several youtube videos show dancing/gesturing "Ging Gang" singers.

Unless the story has been made a completely free resource and this is referred to (in the above web page/article/song book) in a trustworthy manner, I would believe that the authors of each of the above mentioned web page/article/song book would need to get and present explicitly permission by the rights owners.
Further, also when copying already copied intellectual property from another site this would still mean that one has to ensure that copyright rights are not infringed (a general internet dilemma).

The author has been approached on this subject and has not yet commented.
Debuting in Aug/Sept. of 2008, Scouting Life Magazine replaced Leader Magazine as Scouts Canada's magazine for its members.
Scouts Canada and Scouting Life editor have not yet been approached.

Correction: Now approached Brommabo (talk) 06:22, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Until further, the Article summary of the story will be made less infringement-prone. Brommabo (talk) 18:11, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Our archives show that the full story (including instructions and the song) was published under the heading "Campfire Songs" on the bsa.net already in 1998, the specific URL is today not available. bsa = Boy Scouts of America at the time? now something else. So by tradition and common law the tale should be a free resource?! Or not?Brommabo (talk) 09:14, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I notice Wikipedia user Roy Kaighin put up a complete copy of the story on his user page on 2006-09-06, a couple of months before the "Ging Gang" Article was started by Utcursh.Brommabo (talk) 04:57, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Now solved after contact with Scouts Canada. We have the following statement:

"We (= Scouts Canada) approach the story of the "Great Grey Ghost Elephant" as a free resource in the public domain and invite members of the public to disseminate or utilize it freely." Reference: John Petitti, Executive Director, Marketing and Communications, Scouts Canada, 2015-05-21

Besides there are plenty websites in English that carry the full story incl lyrics and instructions. Strategy for the Article : condense the story to very small using words from the original story, mention public domain and add link to one website with full story and with high trustworthiness re longevity. Brommabo (talk) 15:07, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Guys, that's a primary source and not exactly what we'd call meeting our standards of WP:V. The Dissident Aggressor 21:49, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Plan and Comments for Revamp

1. The GGG Elephant story

Put into its own section, since it is not about Origin. This material does not fit with Wikipedia principles, however plays a role for the reader interested in scouting (minor)

2. Recordings

New Recordings inserted incl record additions and years of issue (to illustrate global and time span) (minor)

3. Lyrics

Lyrics from earliest issues presented (major), the very earliest 1905 and the earliest English one 1957 (for comparison in a table). In general, according to Wikipedia principles, lyrics should not be presented in full

4. Origin

Entirely new (major) in order to present the many different existing claims/hypotheses that have been suggested by trustworthy parties (in accordance with Wikipedia principles). Myths/hoaxes/etc are explicitly explained, among them why BP is not connected to "Ging Gang". References added

The original Wikipedia Origin without the tale: =<100 words
The proposed Origin: 750 words
Origin parts condensed from Noterat article: 500 words out of Noterat 1700 words

5. Intro

Updated (minor) to reflect change of the article

6. The GGG elephant tale

Updated (minor) to avoid possible copyright conflict. Gist of story and key words kept
Brommabo (talk) 10:08, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Ging Gang Goolie, NPS and NOLYRICS

These comments will be posted in shortened form on the DissidentAggressor user Talk page.
Now the lyrics of the WP Article have been deleted with reference to NPS and NOLYRICS. I do not agree with these deletions.

We are a group of people who are interested in folk songs and similar. The song “Ging Gang Goolie” (GGG) and its variants has had our attention since several decades and we have involved so many other persons, folklorists, scouting organizations, libraries and other all around the globe in the studies. This all resulted in an article in a respected Swedish ethno-musicological magazine. That article was the basis for the recent revamp of the WP Article on the song “Ging Gang Goolie” (GGG).

When I started out to update the WP Article there were three principles in particular I studied carefully: NPV, NPS and NOLYRICS (some applicable excerpts below)

NPV

It was obvious that the WP Article early on had picked up some unfounded traditions and presented them as THE truth (Baden-Powell, Mozart, purpose with the song). These statements had since 2006 been mirrored into thousands of web sites and text and song books all over the world.

To allow for discussion on equal terms I continuously (during 2012 and now in 2015) presented in the Talk page information on hypotheses and findings about GGG and how these would affect the Article. The keyword here was “balance”. The Talk discussion 2012 - 2015 resulted in no contributions from other parties regarding the origin of the song.

NPV lead me to present in short the different views of the ancestry of GGG.

NPS

“If out of copyright, shorter texts – such as short speeches (the Gettysburg Address), short poems ("Ozymandias"), and short songs (most national anthems) – are usually included in their article. Longer texts are best summarised with the full text placed on Wikisource, or given as an external link.”

A long summary of a tale written in the late 19th century was used as “evidence” for the African origin of GGG. This summary was merely a concentrate of the original tale from the 1990-ies using its words and expressions and could possibly have meant an infringement of copyright.

So I arranged a statement by the copyright owner to declare the tale as a public resource and replaced the tale summary with a reference and link.

And let the lyrics stay included – it is short and has been there for 9 years without adverse reactions. The lyrics are not burdened with any copyright, still, if need be, I have secured a permission by the Scouts Association in UK to publish copies of the song book pages with “Ging Gang Goo” (from 1952 and 1957). In the European Union the copyright ends after 75 years. So the 1905 variant is in the public domain, its “documentor” died in 1922.

NOLYRICS

“2.Lyrics databases. An article about a song should provide information about authorship, date of publication, social impact, and so on. Quotations from a song should be kept to a reasonable length relative to the rest of the article, and used to facilitate discussion, or to illustrate the style; the full text can be put on Wikisource and linked to from the article. Most song lyrics published after 1922 are protected by copyright, and any quotation of them must be kept to a minimum, and used for the purpose of direct commentary or to illustrate some aspect of the style. Never link to the lyrics of copyrighted songs unless the site linked to clearly has the right to distribute the work. See Wikipedia:Do not include the full text of lengthy primary sources for full discussion.”

First, I found that most Articles in WP on older songs have lyrics included.

The strategy for updating the GGG Article and including the song was presented 2012 (Talk page: “Suggested questions for discussion”) and 2015 (Talk page: “Plan and Comments for Revamp”). No one commented on those. The reason for presenting the two lyrics variants was given in the latter one: “the very earliest 1905 and the earliest English one 1957 (for comparison in a table)”.

I also commented in the Talk the Wikipedia principle: no lyrics in full.

Now to NOLYRICS conditions. Copyright, see NPS above. Further, the song is short. The comparison of the lyrics has two purposes:

• It shows that the two variants are very much the same, although they differ in time, geography and spelling. Thus it helps to disprove the now 9 years old WP propagated myth of Baden-Powell as author/composer of the song.
• It shows what is song gibberish

Thus the lyrics facilitate discussion and illustrate the style. (Mind you the discussion about meaning and origin may well continue.)

Re Lyrics and comparison: The choice then stood between including images of the song (1905 and 1952) - which might have spiced up the Article somewhat - or give plain text variants. For readability and to speed up publication I choose plain text.

Ergo

Based on the above reasoning I intend to return the WP Article on “Ging Gang Goolie” to its former state including the lyrics. I look forward to comments Brommabo (talk) 14:02, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I urge you not to do that. In addition to WP:NOTLYRICS, and NPS, you can add WP:COI and WP:OR to the reasons not to include that info. The Dissident Aggressor 21:03, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your comments, Dissident Aggressor. Being a novice on WP and English not my mother tongue I was not aware of all those "shortcomings" of the Article, which I updated in good faith. I will be travelling for a while and will on my return add some more comments on this Talk page. Brommabo (talk) 05:51, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

N-word

This source clearly shows the title as "Nigger Morning Song". So surely that should be used for the image title, racial political correctness notwithstanding? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:21, 17 July 2019 (UTC)