Talk:Gerichtslinde

Sources regarding Freyja and the linden tree

Hey Dab, I've been looking around a bit regarding this claim and keep seeing it repeated, as you noted, without a source given. We both know nonsense has a history of being propagated heavily in these circles, so I am beginning think the claim has no real basis. I assume you may have already done so but if you haven't, could you a look at your sources and check to see if any of those sources cite a basis for this claim from anything - or give any hints? I would be very interested.

Otherwise, if nobody can find anything here, we're going to have to either remove it - which I would recommend in the absence of any real basis since there's just so much unfounded nonsense regarding historical goddesses such as Freyja - or option 2, which is to give it less prominence and just state that it's been oft-repeated and by the most credible of whom, though noting that no source is given. Otherwise, we're just propagating falsity. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

well, in my view, this is obviously a claim that is often repeated, and notable as such and not because it is "true". It would be nice to uncover its ultimate source, but until we manage to do that, I would say the article would lose from removing the claim completely. We can say that it is "often claimed" or "popularly held" that linden trees were sacred to Freya. I know that sounds like weasling, but then that's the current state of our knowledge. I do hope we can find a more solid source. I predict that it will turn out that the claim has first been made by some Romantic author, but perhaps I am wrong and there is actually something to the effect in Icelandic literature. The claim is found on University websites and in printed literature. Not expert literature, I grant you, but I still think this raises it to a level of notability that warrants mention -- if only for the possibility that it will motivate some other reader to research it in the future: Wikipedia often works by leaving unsatisfactory material standing, duly tagged, in this way arousing people's curiosity which may ultimately lead to further article improvement. --dab (𒁳) 22:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I've never heard this before. Dab's defence of the current sentence seems perfectly reasonable, though. Haukur (talk) 01:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree and I do not dispute mention of the subject matter. Even if it turns out to be someone's romantic vision, it still deserves a mention if not for any reason to say just that since, as you point out, it's notable. So far, if you're interested, it seems to me that this is potentially related to the fact that in section 72 in Egils Saga a "linden tree" is a kenning used for a woman and there seems to be more literature where this kenning occurs out there. Of course, it would seem to me some sort of big logic jump has occurred or there's a very buried reference out there that I'm missing. Of course, I am always interested in digging up buried references! The linden tree subject, in itself, is interesting to me for a number of reasons, one of which being that the tree is cited as producing the single leaf that stuck to Siegfried. Anyway, I am still looking and I hope this turns up some more interesting subject matter. :bloodofox: (talk) 01:12, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

this is interesting. I also have the impression that the linden is considered feminine, gracile, while the oak is considered masculine. It seems plausible that one should be dedicated to Thor and the other to Freya, but "plausibility" is of course not enough. It is certain that some 19th century author has written on this, we just need to find it. dab (𒁳) 12:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

looking through google books, I find this interesting reference:

K. Strackerjan, ist die Eiche oder die Linde der Baum des Deutschen Volkes? Oldenburg (1874) [1]

I am sure we would find such speculations there :) here is an interesting note of a pagan cult involving a linden persisting into the 9th century in Ebersberg, Bavaria. Incidentially, I find references to "Frau Haselin", i.e. the Common Hazel being dedicated to or identified with a goddess. Indeed, I find an 1887 source claiming the linden was sacred to Freya together with a (brownish) 1935 source claiming the hazel was sacred to Freya. dab (𒁳) 12:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I was right... here I find a 2005 paper confirming (p.4) that the Strackerjan essay mentioned above claimed that the linden was sacred to Frejia, identified with Holda. This appears to be based entirely on German folklore. It would be interesting to draw parallels to linden as a kenning for women in Icelandic poetry. dab (𒁳) 12:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

What this is breaking down to from what I can tell is that it is clear that the linden is associated with females (probably not surprising given the perceived grace of the tree and the products that can be produced from it) but that we don't have any hard evidence that it's associated with Freyja directly - it could just have easily have been associated with Frigga (here's a source that mentions them both regarding the linden: [2]) and before the apparent split/division between the two may have occurred, the figure prior, probably along the lines Frige. Of course, this information about Holda is also quite interesting considering the amount of attempted links to the above.

Maybe we should turn this article into something like "Linden tree in Germanic Mythology"? There's a lot of stuff turning up that would be appropriate for such an article header and it would be a convenient place to put it all as well as a way to "main article" tag for the appropriate section of the Tilia article.

You can find the translated section of Egils Saga I spoke of earlier here: [3]

Also, here's a very interesting reference published by Harvard in 1884 regarding the oak as masculine and linden as feminine in not only Germanic society but also as written about by Ovid: [4]. It also mentions use of the linden on May Day festivities (the Maypole being another example of Germanic veneration of trees and pillars) in Germany and some other interesting things. Whatever their basis, it seems pretty plausible. :bloodofox: (talk) 06:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

sure. The association is first and foremost a product of German romanticism. I frankly don't think it makes much sense to distinguish between Freya, Frigg and Holda for the purposes of this article. The wider implications of oak=masculine, linden=feminine should perhaps indeed be discussed at the Tilia article. --dab (𒁳) 09:16, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

hey, I just note we have a (stubby) Trees in mythology article. All these questions should be discussed in context over there. dab (𒁳) 09:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)