Talk:George Zidek

DYK

++Lar: t/c 12:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

3 years in America ended in 1998

After 15 years, shouldn't the article be titled under his real Czech name? In ictu oculi (talk) 07:20, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

You should propose a move right out; probably can go to WP:MOVE and follow directions there and interested editors will weigh in; after some time passes, the discussion will be closed and the move either made or not. --(AfadsBad (talk) 03:22, 14 September 2013 (UTC))

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus - this was practically split right down the middle. —Darkwind (talk) 23:27, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

---

George Zidek → Jiří Zídek – Czech national, US green card but never took US citizenship. Although during 3 years in America 1996-1998 for the Denver Nuggets he went (mostly) by the name George Zidek, he then went back to Europe to play basketball as Jiří Zídek in Lithuania, Turkey, Spain, Germany, Poland and finally Czech Republic. Today known in Europe as basketball commentator Jiří Zídek, and as son of Jiří Zídek Sr.. --Relisted. -- tariqabjotu 16:10, 28 September 2013 (UTC) In ictu oculi (talk) 03:48, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

• Comment does he work in English as a basketball commentator? -- 70.24.244.158 (talk) 09:31, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't think so. According to this link, he's an official with the VTB United League. Favonian (talk) 10:30, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, as well as Czech. Euroleague.net Jiri Zidek In ictu oculi (talk) 13:42, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

That seems to indicate the established English name is George, and Jiri isn't his English name, as he doesn't work with it in English, while he did with George. -- 70.24.249.39 (talk) 09:25, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

No, as per link: "POSTED BY Jiri Zidek - Barcelona" he's signing his English baseball commentary with his real name. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:44, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Every one of those reports are prefaced with an introductory paragraph with "George" as part of his name. I admit, I missed the line at the bottom, as I saw the paragraph at the top. -- 70.24.249.39 (talk) 12:18, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support - generally I support the use of native names for basketball players as long as the English name is present as a redirect. I will point out, though, that he payed under the name George Zidek at one of the highest profile college programs in the US for 4 years (including winning a championship in 1995) so technically he publicly played under this name for about the same amount of time as his European professional career. Rikster2 (talk) 22:18, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Lithuania, Turkey, Spain, Germany, Poland and the Czech Republic are all countries where English is not spoken natively. His name as it appears in English-language sources and as it was used in English-speaking countries is the most important. We'd need a source showing that he is more commonly referred to in English as Jiří Zídek in order to move, as per WP:UE. Red Slash 19:44, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Why does it matter whether someone is a native speaker or non-native speaker? This isn't the native speaker wikipedia, most English speakers and most English spoken is by non-native speakers. Neither is this the 1998.wikipedia. We already have a source showing he is more commonly referred to in English and in 2013 as Jiří Zídek in order to move, please read the article and click on links in discussion before !voting. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:50, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Wait, we have a source that says that he is more commonly called "Jiří Zídek" in English? Where? Did I miss it? And it doesn't matter what his native language is so much as the fact that when he lived in an English-speaking country, he chose to call himself George and was referred to as George by most reliable sources. His name in English, then, is George. If there's been any change on how he (generally) self-identifies in English, it hasn't been presented here yet. Red Slash 00:19, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes you missed both the source in the article and the sourced linked above. And no one mentioned his native language. What was mentioned, by you, is that "Lithuania, Turkey, Spain, Germany, Poland and the Czech Republic are all countries where English is not spoken natively" which is irrelevant, Lithuania, Turkey, Spain, Germany, Poland and the Czech Republic are all countries where English is spoken as a second language, so what. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:32, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

And again "If there's been any change on how he (generally) self-identifies in English, it hasn't been presented here yet." - it has, "POSTED BY Jiri Zidek - Barcelona" he's signing his English baseball commentary with his real name. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:32, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I think in general we go with a person's name as it is presented in reliable sources in the English language. And yes, that link you present is a piece of evidence that his English name is different now than it was. But even that source shows him as Jiri "George" Zidek (which, umm, has not a single diacritical mark--though that seems to be common to that entire website). Regardless, I'm not saying that you have not found a source--clearly that's evidence that in some contexts he self-identifies as Jiri now. I checked, and he doesn't have a twitter (at least not under either of these names), so that's no help. I'm just not seeing that places like the Denver Post, who called him George back in the day, would now call him Jiri if he did something notable enough to land in the paper again. Red Slash 00:05, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

So you agree he's known by his real name since 1998? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

@Red Slash: Hi, are you willing to reconsider on this one? Your !vote will probably make the difference between a living person who signs himself "Jiří Zídek" in his English commentaries being given his name or not. Please see my comment below to Dohn joe. We know that books about what he did in 1990s use the name he used in America in the 1990s. Now I am asking you the same question. This is not a town, Munich, this is not a 16th Century Royal, translated personal names, this is a living Czech citizen who found himself as a young man in a country where people couldn't pronounce his name. How many years have to pass before he can have his name back? We can have this RM in 2028, and it will be 30 years since Jiří Zídek finished playing in America but UCLA games records will still record "George Zidek". In 2028 books about those games will still outnumber his commentator references in 2013 or 2028 signing himself "Jiří Zídek." How many years have to pass before he can be given his own name, by which he signs himself in 2013? In ictu oculi (talk) 03:08, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Still clearly known as George in reliable English-language sources. See 537 Google Books results for "george zidek basketball" versus 10 results for "jiri zidek basketball". This holds true for recent books that discuss his U.S. college career, his NBA career, and even his European career:

• Wallace, Tom. The University of Kentucky Basketball Encyclopedia. 2012. "The Cats led 81-78 with 45 seconds left when UCLA center George Zidek scored on a hook shot."
• Lane, Jeffrey. Under the Boards: The Cultural Revolution in Basketball. 2007. "George Zidek, another UCLA center and short-time pro, nearly manufactured a career out of resurrecting the full-motion sky-hook in the late 1990s."
• Wolff, Alexander. Big Game, Small Career. 2010. "Though Žalgiris started three former NBA players—onetime Oklahoma star Anthony Bowie and ex-UCLA teammates Tyus Edney and George Zidek—only the ungainly Eurelijus Žukauskas, the neckless center who didn't begin playing the game until age 17, was having any success controlling Einikis."

There's even a book that uses "Jiri" for another player (Jiri Welsch), and "George" for this one: Brown, Donald. A. A Best of Basketball Story. 2007. p.277. That seems pretty strong evidence of the name used for this person in English-language sources - even those that use names like "Jiri" and "Žukauskas". Dohn joe (talk) 17:54, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Do you think it could be that more English books are published about what the UCLA and Denver Nuggets did in 1990s than on European basketball 1998-2013? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Possibly. Probably, even. Why does that matter when even an English-language book on the Lithuanian team Žalgiris calls him "George"? Dohn joe (talk) 05:52, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Because this isn't Munich, this is a Czech citizen who signs his name with his name. It is 15 years since he played in America. Chances are in another 15 years American basketball books will still be referring to him by the name he used at UCLA. That'll be 30 years. When do we give him the name he signs himself with, after 45 years, 60? Is he destined to have an American name for the rest of his life because he played for 3 years in America? text indicated by request of Dohn joe In ictu oculi (talk) 19:34, 19 September 2013 (UTC) Is that what en.wikipedia is about?This question was struck out after I had responded to it below. Dohn joe (talk) 18:14, 19 September 2013 (UTC) In ictu oculi (talk) 15:06, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

English WP is about following usage in reliable English-language sources, yes. Which is why we can have articles on Jiří Welsch and George Zidek at the same time. (In addition to the book by Brown above, see Lee, Michael. "Jan Vesely, Wizards’ top NBA draft pick, is a crowd pleaser". Washington Post. June 25, 2011. "Vesely is just the third player born in the Czech Republic to play in the NBA, joining Jiri Welsch and George Zidek.") Please see the policy at WP:AT: "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject." Dohn joe (talk) 17:46, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Please read the question. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:08, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

You asked three questions. The first two seemed rhetorical. The third: "Is that what en.wikipedia is about?" also seems somewhat rhetorical, but I gave a pretty direct answer as to what titling in the English Wikipedia is about. If you would like a clarification, please ask. Dohn joe (talk) 03:29, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Please, I would like you to answer the question signalled with a question mark "?" In ictu oculi (talk) 06:43, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

There are still two questions there, even after you struck the question that I had responded to. And again - please don't just strike comments that people have responded to, without any explanation. I've asked you at least three times not to do that. Dohn joe (talk) 18:14, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

As before these strike outs have been made as a courtesy to you and for your convenience since you seem to have difficulty focussing on questions.

Could you please answer the question. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:41, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

As before, I've explained how I find your striking discourteous, and would ask you please not to do it. As for the question, again, you struck only one of three sentences with question marks. Please indicate which of the remaining two you'd like me to answer. That might help me focus. Dohn joe (talk) 18:56, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

When you say indicate do you mean with yellow highlighter? I can do so, one moment. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:31, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

You do realize that you have highlighted two separate questions, correct? I still don't know which one you'd like me to answer. Dohn joe (talk) 19:39, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

It is the same question repeated twice. Are you trying to get me to swear? In ictu oculi (talk) 20:04, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not trying to rile you up. It's two questions. My responses: 1) It will happen when a majority of reliable English-language sources start using "Jiri" over "George", per WP:AT. 2) First, he played in the U.S. at a high level for 7 full years, not 3. Second, it's up to the sources to determine his destiny. Dohn joe (talk) 20:45, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support He's not only known in the English-speaking world. --(AfadsBad (talk) 01:08, 17 September 2013 (UTC))

  That's very true. And in most of the rest of the world, he's known as "Jiří Zídek". But in the English-speaking world, according to the sources, he's almost always known as George. So, according to WP:AT, we should title this article with George, not Jiri. Dohn joe (talk) 00:09, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

What exactly is "the English-speaking world"? In ictu oculi (talk) 06:43, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

That would be a good question for AfadsBad, who used it first. Dohn joe (talk) 18:14, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually Red Slash used it twice, and Afadsbad was disagreeing with Red Slash. I'm asking you what your comment means. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:41, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, in the context of WP, I'd say that the "English-speaking world" more or less corresponds to "reliable English-language sources". Dohn joe (talk) 18:56, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Thankyou, goood, so can we agree that his own use of his own name in his own signature on his own articles constitutes part of the "English-speaking world" and "reliable English-language sources"? In ictu oculi (talk) 19:31, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Absolutely. It's part of the small minority of reliable English-language sources that use "Jiri". How does that affect the directive at WP:AT to follow the majority - especially when then majority is as large as it is here? Dohn joe (talk) 19:39, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

We follow the ones that are most up to date, current, and close to the WP:BLP subject themselves. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:04, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

The subject currently uses both names - see below. Dohn joe (talk) 18:44, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support Neutral (see below. Zagalejo^^^) I can't say I have a problem with this. This doesn't seem all that different from allowing article titles with diacritics or other special characters (Peja Stojaković instead of Peja Stojakovic, Dino Rađa instead of Dino Radja, Tibor Pleiß instead of Tibor Pleiss, etc). Plenty of English sources do refer to him as Jiri (eg, a 1992 NYT article, a 1991 LA Times article, etc), so that version of his name is not terribly obscure. (The Google Books hits for George are inflated with crap from Books LLC and their ilk.) As long as there's a redirect, I'm cool. Zagalejo^^^ 04:42, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

  Even tossing out the Books LLC results, doesn't "George" still show up 90+% of the time? Isn't that what WP:AT asks us to look at? Dohn joe (talk) 18:14, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

  That may still be true of the Google Books results, but we need to consider a range of things beyond Google Books (eg, newspapers, websites, etc). Most of the recent English-language material of any substance (eg, the Euroleague website) seems to refer to him as Jiri. Plus, I think In ictu oculi makes a good "common sense" argument that the man should not be defined solely by the few years he spent in America. Especially since nowadays there is probably more interest in Zidek among non-American readers than American readers.

  For the record, I don't think "George" is blatantly wrong, so if the article stays where it is, I'll be content. But if I had to chose one name or the other, I'd go with Jiri. Zagalejo^^^ 18:58, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

  Okay, but wouldn't you think his playing career would be more notable than his commentating career (at least to date)? And it seems that even Euroleague acknowledges that he's better known as George. Here's his bio from the Euroleague site: "The only European player ever to win both the Euroleague and NCAA titles, Jiri "George" Zidek has been a collaborator with Euroleague.net and Euroleague.TV since the 2006 Final Four was held in his native Czech Republic. Big George, who won the Euroleague with Zalgiris Kaunas in 1999, continues as a color analyst of Euroleague games for Czech TV, not to mention for Euroleague.TV, where he has worked the last three Final Fours. As George returns for the 2011-12 Turkish Airlines Euroleague season, expect more great insights from an ex-champ's point of view!" So, "Jiri" once, and "George" three times. Does that carry any weight to you? Dohn joe (talk) 20:45, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

  Yes, he probably wouldn't be a commentator if it weren't for his playing career, so his playing career is ultimately more important. That said, even when he was playing basketball, there were enough people who would call him "Jiri". (Eg, FIBA, which I don't think has been brought up yet). I see that the Euroleague site sprinkles in uses of "George", but his name in the URL, "Experts" column, and "Posted by" sections is "Jiri", which makes me think they consider "Jiri" the primary name to use.

  But again, if the article stays at George, I won't make a fuss. It's been there for years. Zagalejo^^^ 23:07, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

  We've got some feedback from the subject himself (see comment below). Does that affect your thinking at all? Dohn joe (talk) 17:21, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

  Ah, that's interesting. (Sounds like a nice guy, too!) I'll change my stance to neutral. "Jiri George Zidek" looks wrong without quotation marks, but I personally don't have a problem with Jiri "George" Zidek. Anyway, thanks for taking the initiative. Zagalejo^^^ 18:00, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support This person's name is Jiří Zídek, he was renamed to "George" during his brief stay in the US in the 1990s. "George" is not wrong but rather outdated. Zídek is known mainly on European basketball scene, he presents himself and is presented as "Jiří" Zídek. A good encyclopedic project should reflect that. --Vejvančický (talk / contribs) 06:58, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

  According to the subject, he still uses "George" on Euroleague TV - see below. Dohn joe (talk) 17:13, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. Just as a lark, I decided to email the subject to see if he had any views on the topic or could shed any light. Yesterday, he was gracious enough to respond. According to him, he currently goes by both "Jiri" and "George". He thinks he has started to use "Jiri" a bit more now than he used to, but still uses "George" when he announces on Euroleague TV, and with all U.S. interactions. He signed his email to me as "George". (FWIW, he suggested using "Jiri George Zidek" as the title, which is probably not ideal per WP:AT, but might be worth considering.) I realize this would all be WP:OR if we were to put it in the article itself, but I think it's useful to inform this RM discussion. Dohn joe (talk) 17:13, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

User:Dohn joe

Can we please see the email you sent to him. Not the reply, but what you sent. (User:Zagalejo, you should bear in mind that Dohn joe is not neutral here). In ictu oculi (talk) 10:02, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't see what he has to gain by lying. (Reputation points from a requested move discussion?) I probably would have changed my position to Neutral, anyway. I've said as much as I want to say. Zagalejo^^^ 21:50, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

User:Zagalejo, really please it isn't an issue of "lying" (when is "lying" ever an issue?) the issue is to see how Dohn joe represented the discussion and how the question was framed. User:Dohn joe, I would like to see the question you sent. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:08, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Let's not forget that this discussion is occurring transparently on the talk page of the subject's own Wikipedia page. No matter how the issue was presented to him, he is as able as anyone else to read the entire discussion right here. bd2412 T 12:47, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

But the problem is we can't see what Dohn joe sent. The RM was proceeding as a normal titling discussion with references to (a) guidelines and (b) sources, and 5:2 for following normal practice of Czech names for Czech citizens until Dohn joe did this. If the idea had been discussed first and a neutral email from all editors sent then maybe it would have been helpful, but the way it was done, and the fact that someone who strongly opposed the Czech name did it, makes me very uneasy. Ideally I would ask Dohn to delete entirely his last three contributions here. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:52, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I think that Zidek's response is much more interesting and relevant than my email to him. But here's the "meat" of what I sent (leaving out the intro): "Right now, your article is under a lot of discussion over what the best title should be. Currently, it's "George Zidek". There is a proposal to move it to "Jiří Zídek". Those who wish to keep the current title note that it is the name that most English-speaking people know you by. Those who wish to move the title point out that it's been 15 years since you played as "George" and "Jiří" is the name you use professionally in Europe. My question for you is: do you have any preference what the title is?"

I found it interesting that he corrected my assumption that he uses "Jiří" exclusively in Europe, when apparently he still uses "George" when he broadcasts on Euroleague TV. Anyhow, I hope everyone can see that I tried to present the question as neutrally as possible (can you tell which title I prefer just from reading the email?) - and in any event, his response should be the only interesting thing we take from the exchange. Dohn joe (talk) 17:33, 23 September 2013 (UTC) P.S. I just notified all the discussion participants of the input from the subject. I did not send a notification to anyone who has commented since it was posted.

• Support I prefer to use the subject's actual name, absent really strong evidence otherwise, and it does seem odd to say that Jiří Zídek Sr. is the father of "George Zidek." Make sure to include a hatnote to dad though, assuming this is one of those Cal Ripken cases where junior is better known. --BDD (talk) 17:13, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

  What about 1) the guideline at Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(people)#Nicknames.2C_pen_names.2C_stage_names.2C_cognomens, which says "The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not their "real" name"; and 2) the response we have from the subject himself, who says he continues to use "George" professionally and to U.S. audiences to this day? Dohn joe (talk) 17:33, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

The evidence seems to be mixed. There are references to George and Jiří alike, and the subject's usage varies. --BDD (talk) 18:29, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

My spin through the sources showed that 90+% of reliable English-language sources use "George", even today. "George" is certainly used "most often", as the guideline calls for. And yes, the subject's usage varies. But I don't see why that argues in favor of moving. If anything, it's a neutral statement, with the sources pointing to keeping it at "George", don't you think? Dohn joe (talk) 18:39, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Normally I'd support using his birth name, but in this case the subject appears to be much better known as "George" in English sources, while "Jiri" is uncommon in those sources. As we see he still uses "George" today both personally and professionally, so there's not a pressing need to avoid it. In the final analysis, this seems to be the name most readers will expect to find him under. The naming matter is already discussed in the article text, and people searching for him under "Jiri" will still find him through the redirects. --Cúchullain ^t/c 16:34, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Abritrary Break

• Comment. Would one of the !supporters please explain to me how exactly the proposed move is better than the current title under our naming policies, especially given the evidence that's been presented? This isn't meant to be snarky or combative - I truly would like to understand where you're coming from. Thanks. Dohn joe (talk) 19:38, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean evidence presented. If you mean that older books describing his time in the USA use George, yes, we knew that.

1. Recognizability – Jiří Zídek is immediately obviously a Czech bio, George Zidek says American bio
2. Naturalness – Such titles usually convey what the subject is actually called in English. But in this case the subject today, now, is normally Jiří Zídek is his current job at euroleague.net
3. Precision – (probably equal)
4. Conciseness – (both are equal)
5. Consistency – Jiří Zídek is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles - all other Czech bios, not least his own father Jiří Zídek Sr.

More importantly there's WP:BLP. WP:BLP overrides WP:AT. The main issue really is this. Is the subject Czech or American? If he's Czech, born living and working in Czech Republic almost all of his life, why are we giving him an American name?? In ictu oculi (talk) 19:53, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Did you not see the actual evidence? 1) Most English-language sources even today use George, whether they're referring to his time at UCLA, the NBA, Euroleague, or today; please see above for specific examples. 2) The subject himself even today calls himself George with English-speaking audiences, and even when broadcasting Euroleague games. I don't see how much more WP:BLP you can get than asking the subject himself.... Dohn joe (talk) 20:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

You know my view on the way you asked that question. And you already opposed his Czech name before you asked. Whichever way this RM is closed, that wasn't good. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:33, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

In ictu: it's not a question of "Czech name" vs. "American name"; "Jiri Zidek" can be the "American name" of a Czech-born person, no problem. As you say, it's about "what the subject is actually called in English". Once again, please compare: "Jiří Zidek" in Google books since 2005: 1 result (there are 7 for the scientist). "George Zidek" in Google books since 2005: 31 results. Google news? "Jiří Zidek" since 2005: 3 English-language results. "George Zidek" since 2005: 6 English-language results (plus one in German - interesting that Tagesspiegel would use his "American" name in 2011, wouldn't you say?). Totals since 2005: "George" 37, "Jiří" 4. This is why "George" continues to be more recognizable and natural to use as a title in 2013. Dohn joe (talk) 21:35, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes there are various options for Czechs working or emigrating, Jerry (Czech-British jazz clarinettist Jerry Senfluk) etc. But in this case this is a completely straightforward Czech bio of a Czech living person with a Czech name Jiří Zídek and WP:CRITERIA 1 and 5 require the real name as used by his 2 current employment contexts (1) commentator (2) Nymburk, where he uses his name. The above presentation again of recent Google Books about his time in America 20 years is already in the discussion above. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:47, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't really know why this extra section is here. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:48, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.