Talk:George Shevelov

Place of birth

The Ukrainian page says Shevelov was born in Łomża, Poland. The Russian page indicates the same as the English one. Can anyone verify, which one is correct? --Jouni Vaahtera (talk) 16:21, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I was answered both in Ukrainian and in Russian that Kharkiv is the answer so I corrected the Ukrainian page --Jouni Vaahtera (talk) 19:05, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi, the Ukrainian page says Shevelov was born in Kharkiv, so say his memoirs. Could you provide any source that confirms Shevelov was born in Łomża please? Oklena23 (talk) 11:50, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Smearing Shevelov

Some of the additions I fixed were rather negative smears alleging that he had been a Nazi. "Worked for Nazi controlled institutions?" Weren't most institutions under German occupation "Nazi controlled?" Should we write of anyone who worked for a newspaper, university, hospital, etc. during German occupation that they worked for a "Nazi controlled institution?" Is that relevent? A source states that he fled the Red Army in 1943. Someone wrote in this article, and I removed, that he fled "together with the Nazis." Etc.Faustian (talk) 03:29, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

[1] - As wikipedia editors our jobs are not to second-guess what historians tell us.

So please explain why you've removed data from

• PhD in history А. В. Скоробогатов Харків у часи німецької окупації (1941—1943). — Харків: Прапор, 2006. — ISBN 966-7880-79-6
• Матеріали міжнародної науково практичної конференції "Пропаганда та "єврейське питання" в ЗМІ на окупованій нацистами території України, 1941—1944" //Наукові записки: Збірник. — К.: Ін т політ. І етнонаціональних досліджень ім. І.Ф. Кураса НАН України, 2006. — Вип. 31 ISBN 966-02-4118-6
• Український історичний Журнал ИИ НАН України №9 p.13-28 1993 ISSN 0130-5247
• Шевельов (Шерех), Ю.В. “Я – мене – мені…(і довкруги).”: Спогади. – Х.; Нью-Йорк: Вид-во М.П.Коць, 2001. – Т.1. p 8- 290
• Боґуміла Бердиховська. Україна: люди і книжки . КІС, 2009. p 167-169

Have you look at mentioned above sources? Why you remove relevant Category - Soviet Nazi collaborators? Why ethnic German is Ukrainians of Russian descent? - Please indicate a source. Thank youJo0doe (talk) 08:08, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Please provide eliable source explicitly stating he was a Nazi collaborator before placing him in this category. And please list specifically the data you claim I removed so I can address this point by point. Thanks to your disruptive edits, the word "Nazi" appeared more in this article about a well-known linguist and philiologist than did the wordl "linguist" or "phililogist."Faustian (talk) 12:58, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Could you specify me a text at the start of the p.16 from Український історичний Журнал ИИ НАН України №9 ? p 312 from Шевельов (Шерех), Ю.В. “Я – мене – мені…(і довкруги).”: Спогади. – Х.; Нью-Йорк: Вид-во М.П.Коць, 2001. – Т.1, central chapter at p.170 from Боґуміла Бердиховська. Україна: люди і книжки . КІС, 2009. -? I've indicated my sources originated PhD in history which prove text inserted and can give you an answers to your question Please indicate your Thank You. P.S. Who is Svitlana Matvienko? Does "Mirror Weekly" published by Kuras Institute of the Ukrainian National Academy of Science? Thank you If Jo0doe (talk) 13:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

If you will be so kind to provide a citation a can able to upload an (Ukrainian: »Український засів» "artilce" from July 1942 by almost unknown in all Ukraine linguist and philiologist. Thank youJo0doe (talk) 13:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I see that you've refused to answer my questions. Not surprising, but that's okay. Let's go over your smears on this article which can be found here:

• You added "Later he also join another “newspaper ” “Ukrainian Sowing” (Ukrainian: »Український засів». Both were full of anti-Semitic texts and praising “new order” established Adolf Hitler. despite there being no evidence that he, personally, ever wrote anything anti-semitic. It is little wonder that under German occupation newspapers were forced to include articles that were antisemtic. But was he an author of such articles? If so it would be notable and ought to be included in the article. If not, including that bit of information serves no purpose other than to attempt to smear Shevelov through guilt by association. I suspect he was not an author of antisemetic articles, because if he was you would have found them, wouldn't you have.
• You then added this: "During winter 1941-spring 1942 Nazi shoot almost all Kharkiv’s Jews and provoke artificial famine. More then 13 thousands of Kharkiv citizens were starved to death – amongst them one member of the Academy of Sciences (A.Beketov) and more then 50 professors, assistant professors and lecturers from Kharkov’s Institutes which refuse to collaborate with Nazis. Was Shevelov involved in shooting Kharkiv's Jews? Why include that in his article? What does stsarvation of 50 professors have to do with Shevelov? Anything implicating him in their starvation? Or are you implying that everyone who didn't starve was a collaborator? Any source confirming your idea?
• You added this to the article: "In summer 1942 he refuse to please for help of one of his former student Oles Honchar which as Soviet POW detained at Nazi Death Camp at Kharkov". It was subsequently quicklyu found out that Honchar made his claim after Shevelov, a critic, had been very critical towards Honchar's work. Furthermore, Shevelov had claimed that he never even received Honchar's letter asking for help (perhaps the Germans weren't very good with mail leaving their prison camps) as referenced in this edit (Englishj-speaking raders may use googletranslate). None of this information was included in Jo0doe's edit. Instead we have the one sided claim by Honchar, which followed all of this other "Nazi stuff" described above, to paint a very negative portrait of Shevelov.
• You added "Shevelov and his mother fled Kharkov together with retreated Nazi administration facing Red Army advance in February 1943." Did he travel together with the Nazi administration? Did everyone in Eastern Europe who fled from communism "fled together with the Nazi administration?" This was an unsourced statement of yours. This article by Roger Hnatiuk however states that he left Kharkiv before the German retreat: "Перед відходом німців у лютому 1943 р. він виїхав до Львова, де перебував трохи понад рік." This theme of him "fleeing together with Nazis" continues in the last section, where you wrote "Shevelov was almost unknown at Ukraine since his retreat with Nazi in 1943."
• You added these unsourced claims: "he continued to work at Nazi established commissions (including creation of “new Ukrainian grammar”) till spring 1944, when Nazi again retreated further West. Shevelov with assistance of the Ukrainian Central Committee also moved to Poland (Crynytsya) and then to Slovakia, then Austria and finally to Saxony were he work for different Nazi controlled authorities and institutions." So do you claim that the Nazis commisioned the creation of a "new Ukrainian grammar?"

Thanks to Jo0doe's efforts, the words "Nazi" appeared in Shevelov's article 11 times. Even though he was known as a linguist and philologist, the terms "linguist" and "philologist" appeared in JoOdoe's version only 3 times and 1 time, respectively.

As is evident from the biography, Shevelov worked as a linguist, philologist, literary critic trhoughout his entire career and during various administrations he found himself under. He worked as such in Stalin's USSR in the 1930's, continued doing such work during World War II when his country was under German occupation, and continued to work (in places such as Harvard and Columbia University) after emigrating to the west after the war. Yet through the mischief described above Jo0doe has tried to reduce Shevelov to being some sort of Nazi collaborator.Faustian (talk) 14:30, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Indeed strange - I've provide you exact name of sources and place of pages were you can find an answers to your questions (also repeated once more above)? While could you please claerly indicate a source for your conclusions -

• information serves no purpose other than to attempt to smear Shevelov through guilt by association
• quicklyu found out that Honchar made his claim after Shevelov, a critic, had been very critical towards Honchar's work (Did you find in source text about "19 days before death").Thank you P.S. Any citations? Sources? Jo0doe (talk) 15:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

It's unbelievable that you are asking for sources to disprove your false accusations or implications such as about the shooting fo Jews. That's not how it works. If you claim that Shevelov was somehow involved in the murder of Jews or the starvation of professors you find a source that backs your claim. Other editors don't have to find sources that show that your claims are false.Faustian (talk) 15:19, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

So - does it mean what you don't want to look at sources cited and pages indicated? It's really sad. I hope you also can see that the text inserted does not claims any suggestions which you rised for unknown reasons . Thank you. Also does it mean what you've no sources at your hands - but edit an article per own opinion? Thank you Jo0doe (talk) 15:37, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Nice ongoing refusal by Jo0doe to address any of the issues.Faustian (talk) 15:41, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Which issues your are asked about? Does any of your alleged insertions/ conclusions was in article? While it's really sad to note your challege scholar sources and data (without even see them). Thank you. As regards to[2] - you need to look at books mentioned above and find text "February 6 1943 ...." while indeed statement is correct - German Wehrmacht retreated after Nazi authorities (SD, SiPo, Gebitskommendaturs )etc retreated before together with Nizi collaborators. Again look at sources cited Thank you--Jo0doe (talk) 17:29, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

There are five bulletpoints with issues I asked you to address. Please provide the specific quote where Shevelov is referred to as a Nazi collaborator or where he flees together with Nazis, as you placed into the article. Not your interpretation of what was said or original research "proving" that your interpretation was correct - what was actually said.Faustian (talk) 19:26, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• You mean your insertion as "issues?? Could you indicate in text of article were stated Shevelov involved in shooting Kharkiv's Jews etc. Thank you. P.S. Did you look at least at one from 5 mentioned above sources? Thank you. In order to be more familiar with topic I highly recomend you a nice PhD in history book А. В. Скоробогатов Харків у часи німецької окупації (1941—1943). — Харків: Прапор, 2006. — ISBN 966-7880-79-6 Were shevelev noted several times. Thank you. Again see nice article Collaboration with the Axis Powers during World War II were explained why persons which voluntary work at Nazi administration, commissions, propaganda newspapers mentioned at sources as suchJo0doe (talk) 20:04, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

So you refuse to address the issues, preferring instead to use OR to smear someone. Does Скоробогатов explictly state that Shevelov was a Nazi? Does he state that he wrote antisemitic tracts? That he traveled with Nazis? Yes or no? If not, do not smear Shevelov by implying he did through your OR.Faustian (talk) 20:32, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• List of high grade WP:RS provided. Shevelev openly admit his collaboration (співпраця) with Nazi authorities, institutions and propaganda "newspapers" (see p 312 from Шевельов (Шерех), Ю.В. “Я – мене – мені…(і довкруги).”: Спогади. – Х.; Нью-Йорк: Вид-во М.П.Коць, 2001. – Т.1 - same facts given other sources. Also Svevelov and other sources clearly mentioned about his greetings and "poetry" devoted to Nazi regime. If you would like to adress claims/texts which does not exist at artilce - I can't help you. Please read books specified - or found a RS which claerly indicate that there was no Nazi administration in Kharkov which responcible for extermination of the Jews and starvation more then 100K of Kharkov peoples, "newspapers" which Shevelev are worked for was not published by propaganda detachment (Ргораganda-Abteilung U) of Nazi. Or source which state differ from mentioned at Zwei Jahre Aufbau und Entwscklung des Verlag und Druckereiwesens im Reichscommissariat Ukraine 1941-1943. If you able to find such sources - we can incorporate both (if any). Othervice - please do not remove or misrepresent well referenced information originated from WP:RS (PhD in history etc). Thank youJo0doe (talk) 11:13, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for confirming that you could not find any quote directly linking Shevelov to Nazis and that you use original research based on the works of Ph.D. in history to make your personal conclusions. I never claimed there was "no Nazi administration in Kharkov responsible for the extermination of the Jews." But you did link Shevelov to those crimes through your edit, without any proof that he was involved in them.Faustian (talk) 13:52, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• You already got В. Скоробогатов Харків у часи німецької окупації (1941—1943). — Харків: Прапор, 2006. — ISBN 966-7880-79-6? Could you cite me a first row for page 256? Did you got Шевельов (Шерех), Ю.В. “Я – мене – мені…(і довкруги).”: Спогади. – Х.; Нью-Йорк: Вид-во М.П.Коць, 2001. – Т.1. page 312 anyway ? If not - please read it carefully. Thank you

So- as far as you unable to explaine why was remove well referenced data comes from WP:RS -I hope you'll not oppose to reinstate it. I also add cited through WP:RS info about hundreds of hostages hanged at Kharkov preciselly at times when Shevelev voluntary join Nazi administration and write his Panegyrics at "Nue Ukraine" of the Рrораganda-Abteilung U. Thank you P.S. I got nice copies from here [3] with Mr.S. "hands" - I hop you'll not to object to inclusion - while expecting alleged claims about OR - В. Скоробогатов use it and cited them. Thank you Jo0doe (talk) 19:09, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

So now you are threatening to continue trying to disrupt the article with irrelevant information meant to smear Shevelov.21:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

References

Some issue

• mother incorrectly stated his birthplace in order to escape persecution

prosecution for which offence?It's really strange claims - better to use own Шевельов (Шерех), Ю.В. “Я – мене – мені…(і довкруги).”: Спогади. – Х.; Нью-Йорк: Вид-во М.П.Коць, 2001. – Т.1. p 8- 290

• His family moved to Kharkiv in 1910

seems inaccurate - becouse Sheveliov mentioned as he rememeber Lomzha and even visit it at 60s - seems to be strange for 2 years boys

• decided to russify the family name

not to russify - see again Я – мене – мені… - story given in full details

• In that same year under pressure he was recruited as an NKVD

no "pressure" appeared at both sources cited - please behave WP:NOR

• In 1934 Shevelov published his Grammar of the Ukrainian language in two volumes which was reprinted

It was not "his" grammar - he was one of many coeditors at N.Kaganovitch grammar - again see sources listed.

• During WWII

Does WWII started at October 1941?

• Before Lemberg (official name of the city at mentioned time) he for a short time stay at Kiev - but soon forwarded farther west by Nazi
• In 1961 he try to approach to Ukrainian wrighters delegations (and specifically to his former student Honchar) - but they refuse to talk with treator - since that it was known at Ukraine that he is not dead (as assumed later)

So I highly reccomend to read books\magazine sources listed. ThanksJo0doe (talk) 09:24, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

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