Talk:George Raynor (pirate)

Substantial Edits 10SEP2018

Another editor and I have twice deleted a large body of text from an anonymous poster (IP user 173.191.171.127). There were several claims in the text, with some sources cited, but not in Wikipedia format. I’ll address the claims below and in the article by adding some notes and another source. The addition claimed "There is no absolute documentation that merchant seaman, privateer and pirate Captain George Raynor of the Bachelors Delight was George Josiah Raynor nor that the Bachelors Delight was in fact the other ship named Loyall Jamaica that was run aground at Seewee Bay off the coast of South Carolina. None of the references listed provide any documentation for either of these facts provided above." Both these points were addressed directly in the listed references, but if they weren't clear, I will clean up the article and add additional sources.

In the future, user 173.191.171.127, please address comments such as those on the Talk page. If you have additional facts to add to the article, backed by reliable sources, please add them to the article directly. I thank you for your edits; the article needed cleanup and could have been made much clearer in some parts. Your addition also reminded me that Donnelly's "Pirates of Virginia" claimed a different end for Batchelor's Delight, which I will look into.

Regarding the identity of the ship: I already cited one source (Three Decks) confirming that the Batchelor’s Delight and Loyal (or Royal or Loyall) Jamaica were the same ship. I just added a second source for the claim, David Marley’s “Pirates of the Americas,” page 744-745: “This ship [Batchelor’s Delight] had evidently departed Port Royal on a privateering cruise under the name of Loyal Jamaica, before Reiner had decided to circle around Africa on an unsanctioned raid into the more lucrative hunting-ground of the Indian Ocean.” I already had a note warning that there were multiple ships named Batchelor’s Delight or Bachelor’s Delight, making identifying them difficult.

• I will clean up this section and make clear that this could be a different ship.

Regarding George and Josiah not being the same person: The citation for Jameson’s “Privateering and Piracy” addresses this, page 181-188, cf. Note 3: “October 13, 1691. Arrived the Batchelors delight, Captain Georg Raynor[see note 3] Commander ... December 91 they set saile from Port Dolphin bound for America, where I have heard since they arrived at Carolina … [note 3] Josiah Rayner was associated with Tew, later with Every; Fletcher had, for a bribe, it was said, released his chest of treasure brought to New York." Of course it’s certainly possible they weren’t the same. There’s no hard evidence either way, but given the reliability of Jameson, together with the timing and similarity of their stories, I think the evidence does point to them being the same. But just in case, I will add a note about that to clarify that it’s not absolutely certain. I’m also trusting Jameson that the Josiah Raynor who sailed with Tew was the same as George Raynor. I already had a note about the “George Raynor” who sailed with Bradish.

• I will add a note that he is not the same “William Rayner” who sailed with John Quelch.

Regarding the bond by Lowe and Harris: I already cited it, under “Abstracts from the Records of the Court of Ordinary of the Province of South Carolina, 1692-1700”. Also that document dates from Feb. 1694, not 1693: remember that until 1752 New Year’s fell on March 25 (Lady Day), so for them it was 1693, but in modern calculation it would have been 1694. In the “Abstracts” version it specifically calls this out, dating it as “February 22, 1693 (1694).”

• No action taken, this citation is already used.

Regarding the 2012 “Pirates of Virginia” book from Donnelly and Diehl: first, their chapter on "Davis, Wafer, Hingson, and the Batchelor’s Delight" was 95% plagiarized from the 2010 Millar essay (https://50th.wm.edu/1967/BACHELORS_DELIGHT.pdf) which I already cited several times. The Millar essay does bring up an interesting possibility. It claims that Raynor and crew left the Batchelor’s Delight at Madagascar, where John Kelley became its Captain. That means the ship in which Raynor returned to Charles Towne might have been a different ship entirely, renamed Loyal Jamaica to cover their tracks. Kelly’s deposition (http://www.galapagos.to/TEXTS/KELLY.HTM) before he was hanged confirms the account in Donnelly: Kelley and crew went “then to the Coast of Sumatra, for to look for a watering Place, but met a Mallayan Privateer, we clapt them on board with the long boat, but they kill'd all our Men, but three, and two of them were Wounded, so left her making the best of our way to Madegascar then we left the Ship, and Dwelt on Shore, till Captain Kidd came when his Men left him we went on board the Moekoa [Robert Culliford’s Mocha].” That is, if the ship Kelley had was in fact Raynor’s old Batchelor’s Delight, then Donnelly was correct: the Batchelor’s Delight was mauled and its crew captured or killed, except that it wasn’t Raynor or his crew aboard, it was Kelley. I would say that Donnelly and Millar contradict the other citations, except that they don't cite any sources of their own. Millar's research looks good (while Donnelly stole most of it outright for "Pirates of Virginia") - and he's an historian who works in the pirate field so I have no reason to doubt his research - but because Marley and Jameson are more well-cited and thorough I trust them more then they contradict other sources.

• I will expand the last paragraph to note that Raynor could have returned without the original Batchelor's Delight, that the Loyal Jamaica could have been a different ship, and clarifying Kelley's story.

Just found another source claiming Raynor as the ex-pirate out of Jamaica who retired to the Carolinas and purchased Kiawah Island, but who also had business in New York (possibly the "treasure chests released by Fletcher for a bribe" incident?) and New England; however, it doesn't mention a connection to Tew, and doesn't call him Josiah. This source ("Kiawah Island: A History" By Ashton Cobb) does mention the letter from William Penn in 1700 specifically naming Raynor as a pirate.

Also another source, with a good deal of information about the Loyal Jamaica being condemned as a wreck at Sewee Bay, about the ship's guns being donated to Charles Towne, and about Raynor and crew paying bond to be absolved of piracy (search for Rayner or Privateer or Jamaica or "Soweebay", and others): Journal of South Carolina Council. April 11, 1692-Sept 26,1692.

--TheLastBrunnenG (talk) 03:18, 11 September 2018 (UTC)