Talk:George Curzon, 1st Marquess Curzon of Kedleston/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

This barely modified from 1911 Britannica, apart from typos fixed. The two paras inserted before the final list of books are new. -- Hotlorp

However subsequent to this comment the article has been ammended and updated several times.

Should this perhaps be at George Nathaniel Curzon, 1st Marquess Curzon?

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I recently purchased a copy of the deluxe edition of Ronaldshay’s ‘Life of Lord Curzon’. It is 132 of 200 signed deluxe editions that were sold – and I wonder if anyone out there has anymore information on the specific history of #132, or any of the other 199 copies. I have attempted to find a contact for the publisher, Ernest Benn ltd. However it appears that they either have no internet presence, are defunct, or have changed their name for some reason. I would love to know anything about the history of my specific copy, and the entire deluxe run – if anyone knows anything it would be much appreciated. Kris Radford, Victoria BC

Early Life

I have strengthened the description of Miss Paraman, another of those females, like Kipling's Mrs Holloway, who enjoy torturing small children over a long period. She used to make him ask the gardener for switches to beat him with. There was a lot of beating at his next school too, I believe, though not necessarily sadistic like Churchill's headmaster the Rev. Mr Sneyd-Kinnersley's practices.

Moving to later things, I wonder if there ought to be a little more emphasis on his love of old buildings and their preservation?  Also, there was his attitude to the Balfour Declaration. I believe he succeeded in getting in the words which seem to offer protection to the Palestinian inhabitants. Seadowns (talk) 07:54, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Levi Leiter's origin

While Levi and Abrahama could be Evangelical names, and the last names are not distinctly Jewish, it seems more plausible to me that he was of German Jewish origin, not German Lutheran.

Indeed, "German Lutheran" is not an "origin" or ethnic derivation; German is, but Lutheran is a creed, faith or denomination. I have changed it to Levi Ziegler Leiter, an American millionaire of German origin. Sca (talk) 21:16, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

"Arab facade"

What is the origin of this quote: "Arab facade ruled and administered under British guidance and controlled by a native Mohammedan and, as far as possible, by an Arab staff." about how the British would run the Middle-East in the wake of WW1?

Famine

The stated believe that Curzon did little to counter the impact of the great famine in India, based on a quote from Mosley, Curzon's grandson, contradicts with David Gilmour's believe that Curzon actually managed not only to feed the people, but also that he provided funds to ease the financial impact as well. Another interesting outcome was the susequent creation of an agricultural academy.

Victorian pederasty category

Curzon was involved in an apparently intimate relationship with Oscar Browning, a relationship which led to OB's dismissal from Eton under trumped-up charges. The episode has been described as "His intimate, indiscreet friendship with a boy in another boarding-house, G. N. Curzon [...] provoked a crisis with [Headmaster] Hornby [….] Amid national controversy he was dismissed in 1875 on the pretext of administrative inefficiency but actually because his influence was thought to be sexually contagious" (Richard Davenport-Hines, ‘Oscar Browning’, DNB). As such it seems appropriate to include this article in that particular category, which focuses on exactly this cultural milieu. Haiduc 05:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

But doesn't putting Curzon in that category imply that it is Curzon who was the pederast? john k 07:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I see no such implication, and if needed the matter can be made crystal clear in the article itself. If I might add, this aspect of his life was not minor in the least, he was aggrieved when Hornby warned OB away from him, wrote his father who responded with a warm letter of support for OB appreciating all he had done for the boy, after which they spent the summer traveling in Europe. Later Curzon declared that everything he had accomplished was due to OB, and invited his tutor to India after he became viceroy. So it would appear that his participation in this cultural milieu was not only important to the events affecting it, but was also an important aspect of his own life. Haiduc 12:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Sure, and it's important that we discuss all that in the article. On the other hand, I'm very dubious of "Victorian pederasty" as a category, and I'd much prefer if we didn't have such a category, as I don't think it adds very much to anything, and is, rather, a misuse of categories. But I imagine we do not see eye to eye about that. john k 22:17, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Not necessarily. If tagging an article with that label was simply a trophy-collecting process, then I would have to agree with you. But if it serves as way to facilitate study of what is considered to have been a social movement with certain milestones, even if no clear boundaries, then what is the harm? The Greeks have a category, so do the Japanese, why not the Brits? Haiduc 00:26, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm obviously dubious of all the pederasty categories, at least insofar as they are used in this manner, or, for that manner, any broad category that deals with a topic, rather than objective categories like "World Capitals," or "British statesmen," or "Knights of the Garter". john k 04:43, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I would say that the whole complex of LGBT categories (which includes the pederasty categories) would be too vague, arbitrary and irrelevant - in some ideal world. Just like a category for people who ate beef. But as same-sex relations have become objectified and compartmentalized and the focus of intense cultural wars they have acquired an importance and identity out of proportion to their nature. How can we fail then to set out and organize the historical information? Haiduc 13:13, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

More importantly, the section supporting the cat is unsourced; and since Oscar Browning had other obnoxious habits, other stories are possible. Please fix this. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

This is true. john k 04:43, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Now it is sourced. Haiduc 13:16, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

References:

April 1, 2007 171.192.0.10 (Talk), Nice recent additions. What is Greats?. Please ref or link any new info.Marcus 18:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Greek and Roman literature, history and philosophy; the second half of the Oxford Classics Course, after one is assumed to have mastered the languages in the first two years (Mods). It used to be the most prestigious course, and getting a first in both halves counted as a "Double First". Philosophy, Politics & Economics used to be known as "Modern Greats" when it was first introduced.Paulturtle (talk) 01:32, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Resolve

I took away he resolved an insurrection in Iraq by sending T.E.Lawrence plus fives and sixes. Lawrence was in wartime Mesopotamia (Iraq) in 1916. In 1920 at the time of the insurection in Iraq he was at Oxford - he did write on the matter for the newspapers (see David Garnett: The letters of T.E.Lawrence). Mesopotamia in 1920 resulted under the Indian Office (seeArnold Wilson) and had Sir Percy Cox in charge, with Gertrude Bell and Harry St John Philby as agents. It was only when in 1921 the Middle East became a special section of Winston Churchill's Colonial Office that Faisal I of Iraq was proposed at the Cairo Conference, 1921 and Lawrence went back to...theHejaz. See: H.V.F. Winstone Gertrude Bell Jonathan Cape 1978. + any book on T.E.Lawrence.

good day,

Lunarian (talk) 23:16, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

1905-1908

Was Curzon active in public life at all in the period between his return from India and his election to the House of Lords? I imagine he would have got back too late to contest a seat in the 1906 general election, but it seems odd that no seat at a by-election was found for such a prominent politician. Was this because of the Conservatives' heavy defeat, or did Curzon have no interest in returning to the Commons? I imagine the DNB would say, but I don't have ready access to a copy. Opera hat (talk) 12:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The DNB notes:

Balfour's refusal to recommend an earldom [in 1905] was repeated by Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, the Liberal leader asked to form a government on the day after Curzon's return to England. In deference to the wishes of the king and the advice of his doctors, Curzon did not stand in the general election of 1906 and thus found himself excluded from public life for the first time in twenty years. It was at this time, the nadir of his career, that he suffered the greatest personal loss of his life.

Mary died in 1906 and it seems Curzon devoted himself to private matters, including establishing a new home. In 1907 he was elected Chancellor of Oxford and proved a quite active Chancellor - "[he] threw himself so energetically into the cause of university reform that critics complained he was ruling Oxford like an Indian province." Timrollpickering (talk) 18:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

New file File:George Nathaniel Curzon, Marquess Curzon of Kedleston by John Cooke.jpg

Recently the file File:George Nathaniel Curzon, Marquess Curzon of Kedleston by John Cooke.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 01:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

The Curzon-Line and today's Polish border

The article claims - already at the beginning - that today's Polish border is the famous Curzon-Line as proposed via the (then still) Earl Curzon. I'd like to point out, that this isn't the case. Poland's current eastern border is - in best case - "a close approximation of the Curzon line", as the article about the Curzon Line states. A look on this contemporary English map (http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Poland_%26_The_New_Baltic_States.jpg&filetimestamp=20100626140649) shows, that for instance the City of Grodno was supposed to be Polish. It is not a part of Poland today. The difference is as if England's northern border was to be set on Hadrian's Wall, leaving most of Northumberland in Scotland.

I propose to change the sentence to this: "The Curzon-Line is named after him."

Curzon has not been the line's author, so saying it was named after him is correct. Whoever wants to know what the Curzon-Line actually is can easily check for himself. Any description here must either be too short and inaccurate or lack the brevity necessary for a sentence in an article's very introduction. Tholomaios (talk) 02:01, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Close paraphrasing/plagiarism concern in "Assessment" section

Hi, I noticed that the following paragraph "Few statesmen....George V" from the "Assessment" section is almost entirely lifted from the "Assessment" section of the relevant Oxford Dictionary of National Biography article. This is plagiarism and ought to be fixed ASAP. VashiDonsk^(T) 22:03, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I fixed it. Rjensen (talk) 22:15, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

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