Talk:Geology of Russia/Archive 1

Translation issues

Are 'platforms' the translation for 'plate' ? It seems likely to me, but looking at the cyrillic script on the ukrainian page I can clearly make out the word 'platforme' so literal translation is obviously pretty good, but not sure about the translation in context, it might be that plate or craton is a better translation? Can someone with a bit of knowledge of the region look at the page and in their head substitute the word platfrom for plate/craton and see if either of those makes sense.

Anyway I think we could probably remove a chunk of the current article - anything that is unclear, and then just leave this template (below) on this page until the articles are comparable in content.

Expand Ukrainian|Геологія_Росії|date=oct 2012no longer just a translationEdwardLane (talk) 08:05, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

See shield (geology), platform (geology), craton and List of shields and cratons#Eurasia. Vsmith (talk) 10:12, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, platform stands for tectonic plate.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:44, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Apparently not always - the East European platform is the accumulation of sediments over the East European craton. RockMagnetist (talk) 18:10, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Platform is a geologic term, whereas the plate is a geophysical term. In practice, they often coincide. What the author meant, I do not know.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:25, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

My impression is that the article is not well written. RockMagnetist (talk) 18:30, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

It appears to me that the "too-technical" issue highlighted by the top-of-article template is partly a problem with poor writing -- not overuse of technical terms so much as incoherent writing. Continued editing is helping to resolve that.

Another aspect of "too technical" relates to the blizzard of geologic-time terms used in the article. It isn't possible to write about these topics without using some such terminology. However, it might be possible to avoid some of it -- for example, by substituting a specific era for "Paleogene" when that is possible, by using parentheticals to indicate that Proterozoic is part of Precambrian, or by using a term like "Early Cretaceous" in place of "Albian". --Orlady (talk) 22:44, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with both your points here, the first sentence of this article was completely incomprehensible, and I'm a geologist. I like to use Early Cretaceous with Albian parenthetically, particularly with major breaks in time (late Early/early Late), as these terms will crop up in other literature. Someone (you?) is rewriting well, though, so I think the article stands a chance. Large subject, though, difficult to write well and complete. -Fjozk (talk) 16:31, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Sections

There is a german book about the geology of russia and the chapters of the book are listed on the publishers page. This might be helpful for organizing this article into sections. Plus we get an idea of which topics are still missing. --Tobias1984 (talk) 21:03, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I like the term "wrinkle system" in the machine translation! RockMagnetist (talk) 18:32, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

How is your German? Could you reproduce the chapter listings on this talk page? RockMagnetist (talk) 18:33, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Better than my english :) --Tobias1984 (talk) 20:28, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

OK I've started ticking off items from the title headings below as a kind of task list to at least see if some mention of each of the things is present - I've not gone through them all yet and I need to head to work so I'll catch the rest later, I think it's useful, possibly if only to make a list of objects to stick in the see also section until it gets expanded.

Book

Topographical illustration of Russia showing some of the mentioned orogens/fault zones

• Abriß der Geologie Rußlands und angrenzender Staaten. Translated by Eberhard Klitzsch. Schweizerbart. 1994. ISBN 978-3-510-65158-0. {{cite book}}: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors= (help)CS1 maint: others (link)

Extended content

Platforms Siberian platforms Aldan shieldY Anabar shieldY Middle siberian plateau (Mittelsibirische Tafel) European platforms Baltic shield Ukrainian shield Russian plateau (Russische Tafel) Pechora basin Siberian Middle-Asian platform Altai-Sayan region East Kazakh region West Siberian plateau Turan plateau Verkhoyansk Chukchi region Fault zones N Precambrian fault zones Stanovoy fault zone Baikal fault zone Sayan-Yenisey fault zone (also Yenisei) Paleozoic fault zones Selenga Yablon fault zone Ural fault zone Tian Shan fault zone Mesozoic fault zones Pay-Khoy fault zone of Novaya Zemlya Verkhoyansk fault zone Y Cenozoic fault zones CarpathianN fault system Crimean Nfault system Caucasus Y fault system Kopet DagN fault system Pamir N fault system East Asian mega zone Tartary Koryak fault zone (Tartary is from Strait of Tartary) Sikhote-Alin fault system Sakhalin fault systemY Koryak highland fault systemY Primorsky Chukchi volcanic zoneN Kuril Kamchatka island arc systemY Kuril islandsY Kamchatka peninsulaY Peri-Caspian basin, Inland seas, Marginal seas, Polar seaN Peri-Caspian basin Inland seas Caspian sea basin Black sea basin Marginal seas (back-arc basins) in the far east Polar sea basin Rift zones Timan Ridge (Timan mountain)Y Dnieper Prypiat zone Donetsk mountain Dnieper Donetsk basin Prypiat basin Baikal Stanovoy rift zone Baikal Vitim rift system Dzhugdzhur Stanovoy rift system

Book 2

I just found another book here. It's coming out in 2013. It has the following chapters: --Tobias1984 (talk) 17:56, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• Geology of Russia. Berlin: Springer. 2014. p. 410. ISBN 978-3-642-05102-9. {{cite book}}: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors= (help)

Extended content

Tectonic overview East European Craton (Russian part) Timan-Pechora sedimentary basin and Timan fold and thrust belt Western Siberia sedimentary basin Y Scythian sedimentary basin Sub-Caspian sedimentary basin Caucasus fold and thrust belt Uralin fold and thrust beltY Fold and thrust belts of Altaides and Tien-Shan Siberian Craton Verkhoyansk and Alazeya fold and thrust belts Taimyr-Severnaya Zemlya fold and thrust belt Yenisey fold and thrust belt Fold and thrust belts of Central Asia Fold and thrust belts of the Pacific rim Overview of metallogeny of Russia N Overview of oil and gas fields of Russia N Main stages of evolution and paleotectonic

Book 3

• American Geophysical Union (AGU), Geodynamics Series, Vol. 21, Geology of the USSR: A Plate‐Tectonic Synthesis (1990)

Extended content

Tectonic framework East European platform Siberian platform Uralian foldbelt Central Asian foldbelt, western part: Central Kazakhstan and Tien Shan Central Asian foldbelt, eastern part: Altay-Sayan region and Baikal upland Mongol-Okhotsk foldbelt Sikhote-Alin-Sakhalin foldbelt Foldbelts of the northeast USSR, Taimyr and the Arctic Koryak-Kamchatka foldbelt Alpine-Himalayan foldbelt within the USSR Late Paleozoic and Mesozoic-Cenozoic sedimentary basins Recent plate tectonics Summary of the tectonic development of the USSR territory

Sea of Okhotsk

Why are several sections gathered under the heading of "Sea of Okhotsk"? There is not a single reference to the sea in the text. RockMagnetist (talk) 17:47, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

This might be a good time to raise the questions how to sort this article. The only book I could find about the regional geology of russia has the following sections: (I) platforms, (II) fold belts, (III) east-asian megazones, (IV) basins, (V) rift zones. I guess the "Sea of Okhotsk" is an attempt to sort the information according to geographic regions. --Tobias1984 (talk) 17:55, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

That sounds like a good organization. The alternative would be to arrange things geographically to show how the parts are related. That would work well if we could find a map with an overview of the geologic features. RockMagnetist (talk) 18:07, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

The collision of the Indian subcontinent caused the east-asian megazones, russian geology took its time to accept the thrust fault concept. I assume what's why the titles are strange. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 18:13, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I interpreted "Pacific orogen" as "Pacific ring of fire". Does that sound right? RockMagnetist (talk) 18:34, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Could we say east pacific active margin? --Tobias1984 (talk) 18:55, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

No, the pacific orogeny in this case are the accreation belts east of the siberian craton, old ones. As I understand it. My problem was the translation of "folding areas", never heard. So I used orogeny and orogenic. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 18:57, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

@Tobias1984, east pacific active margin: the orogeny east of the Lena River isn't active anymore, as I understand. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 19:17, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Folding areas are ru:складчатость, which is orogeny.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:18, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Note: "Orogeny refers to forces and events leading to a severe structural deformation of the Earth's lithosphere (crust and uppermost mantle) due to the engagement of tectonic plates." --Chris.urs-o (talk) 19:22, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

In the lead, I used "orogen" for the deformed regions, consistent with the usage in the article on Orogeny. RockMagnetist (talk) 19:25, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

How about something like this?

We could use geographical terms and then move west to east. These are the 8 classical geographic parts of russia:

• East European plain (+Kola peninsula)
• Ural mountains
• West Siberain plain
• North Siberian lowland
• Central Siberian plateau
• South Siberian mountains
• Middle Yakutia (Sakha) lowland
• East Siberian mountains
• East Siberian lowlands

Although I would favor geologic terms for the headlines. --Tobias1984 (talk) 18:52, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

An English version of that map would be good, if one can be found. RockMagnetist (talk) 19:05, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I favor geologic terms as well. The main parts: East European craton, Siberian craton, East Asian mega zone orogenies from the collision of the indian subcontinent. And the smaller things. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 19:06, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree on the use of geologic terms. In that regard, an "orogeny" is a series of events and an "orogen" is the complex of geologic features produced by/during an "orogeny". In this article, it's not always clear when the word "orogeny" is used correctly to refer to events and when it is used incorrectly to refer to geologic features. --Orlady (talk) 21:36, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Siberian craton

I did some research on the Siberian craton and rewrote the section. About half of the terms give no search results and might be misspelled. Can someone with a trained eye look them over. Maybe also the original Russian and Ukrainian versions?

Old Text:

Siberian platform has epirhyacian age. Under platform stand Aldan Shield, Yenisei and Lena-range, among the major structural elements of which - Aldan and Anabar anticline and Viluiskaya (Sakha) Tunguska (2 rivers) syncline, the Angara-Lena Trough, Lena-Anabar, Angara-Yenisey Vilyuisk Khatanga deflection Olenyok, Turuhan- Norilsk and Peleduyskoe? uplift, Nyuyskaya?, Berezovsky?, Irkutsk, Kan, Lindenskaya?, Ust-Aldan, Chulman, Tokkinskaya? depression. Known geologically for the Siberian Traps, mineral resources here are very rich.

Thanks. --Tobias1984 (talk) 15:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I think the article is much better now, if we want to get the article above start quality, then we need to read a book on geology of russia. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 16:52, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Geologic names come usually from the location, I adapted some. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 17:14, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Geographic regions

8 Geographic regions + some more

I translated the geographic regions picture and uploaded it to commons. --Tobias1984 (talk) 10:20, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Geologic regions of Russia

And here is the first draft of the geologic regions. Definitely needs some more expertise. --Tobias1984 (talk) 10:44, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

• Great, thanks. What I immediately see is a typo, Katanga should be Khatanga. I am not sure about Stanovoi, probably it is ok, but the standard transliteration is Stanovoy Range.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:57, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Thanks, fixed it. --Tobias1984 (talk) 11:15, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

More details

I made another even more detailed map which I hope is acurate. All three are SVGs so it's no big problem to move the text around. --Tobias1984 (talk) 20:07, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I see four typos: It should be Donetsk, Timan, Laptev, Kuznetsk.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:39, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Fixed them. Thanks allot. --Tobias1984 (talk) 21:45, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

I just put the more detailed map into the article but I think it still needs work, I think ideally it should (only) label each of the things we have in the contents list 1 East European craton 1.1 Timan Ridge 1.2 Timan-Pechora Basin 2 Ural orogeny 3 West Siberian basin 4 Siberian craton 5 Verhoyansk-Chukotka collision zone 5.1 Verkhoyansk-Kolyma orogeny 5.2 Novosibirsk-Chukotka orogeny 6 Okhotsk-Chukotka volcanic belt 7 Pacific rim orogenies 7.1 Kurile islands arc 7.2 West Kamchatka orogeny 7.3 Sikhote-Alin orogeny 7.4 Koryak orogeny 7.5 Sakhalin Cenozoic orogeny 8 Geology of the Russian arctic 8.1 Kara terrane

DYK nomination

Comments external to the transcluded DYK nomination above

Nice Tobias ;) --Chris.urs-o (talk) 16:13, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

I thought it would be a nice idea although I didn't find a good catch phrase. I just used the number of edits as primary and secondary author. I hope that sounds ok to everyone. --Tobias1984 (talk) 16:27, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

It is a nice idea. We'll have to hurry up and clean up the text, though. There are still some pretty horrible patches. RockMagnetist (talk) 19:53, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Including some self-contradictory material like "ancient pre-Riphean arrays of Mesozoic and Cenozoic orogenies". RockMagnetist (talk) 21:17, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

• I have clarified the lead a little. Can someone please explain the inclusion of the mediterranean ridge in the lead? It does not appear to be anywhere else in the article, and seems hard to believe. μηδείς (talk) 03:39, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Might be a broad sense meaning. The closing of the Tethys Sea with Black Sea and Caspian Sea? --Chris.urs-o (talk) 05:47, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

That's what I imagined, but it would have to refer to a ridge in the north caucasus, which makes no sense. Searches on the term bring up structures south of the Greek mainland.

I am trying to get this reviewed for DYK, but the jargon-heaviness makes it hard to remove the current tag. I think explaining the terms when they are first encountered in the article will make it more acceptable. Any help doing this would be appreciated--my training is in biology and linguistics. μηδείς (talk) 15:21, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I have edited this heavily, especially by doing a human translation from the Russian. Assuming the clarifications I have added for the technical terms stand, I feel this is now ready for DYK, and removed the technical tag. Given my editing I have added myself as an updter and have to remove myself as an editor, but I will comment at the nom. μηδείς (talk) 06:34, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Book: The Geology of Russia in Europe and the Ural Mountains:

I think Roderick Murchison (1792–1871), Edouard de Verneuil (1805–1873) and Count Alexander von Keyserling (1815–1891), shouldn't be cited. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 07:10, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

• Certainly not. Russian Wikipedia is largely contaminated by the articles from the Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopaedia from the 1900s which were added without any changes and in most cases are hopelessly outdated. This must be one of those instances.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:19, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
• The information in that book is more of historic interest. Maybe it could go into a "History of the geologic investigation of Russia" article. Although I'm not volunteering to write it :) --Tobias1984 (talk) 09:18, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
• This fossil was written before the tectonic plate age. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 10:17, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

• After we're finished rewriting it someone could translate it into Russian! RockMagnetist (talk) 14:59, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

• True :) --Tobias1984 (talk) 15:07, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Koryak orogeny

This seems to be mostly gibberish, I can't make sensible sentences out of it - anyone want to try or shall I just chop it out for now?

Koryak orogeny is divided into a very complex system of folded flaky-slip-cover and structure. Incision in the Western zones of geosynclinal thickness presented siliceous volcanic and carbonate-terrigenous (Ordovician - Cretaceous Aptian stage) rocks, unconformably overlain by molasse complex of marine and continental sediments. All Paleozoic and Mesozoic basins have been stored for the oceanic crust, represented ophiolites.

EdwardLane (talk) 13:37, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

There is some more coherent information in this abstract. If you feel like it you could put together a few sentences. --Tobias1984 (talk) 13:57, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Well here's my attempt The Koryak fold and thrust belt consists of Lower Palaeozoic to Cenozoic terranes. Including early Carboniferous metamorphic terranes, comprised of folds, domes and shear zones with related high-pressure/low-temperature metamorphism. Latest Jurassic to early Cretaceous (early Albian) thrusting was accompanied by dextral strike-slip faulting, and this formed imbricate fans of thrusts and folds with southeast vergence, creating a broken formation and serpentinite mélange, some of the rocks were metamorphosed to blueschist, these structures are now overlapped by the Upper Albian sedimentary rocks with an angular unconformity. A late Cretaceous to Cenozoic deformational event characterized by significant sinistral strike-slip displacement at higher crustal levels resulted in a new set of structures and rotation of pre-existing structures. The latest Jurassic to early Cretaceous (early Albian) thrusting, and late Cretaceous to Cenozoic deformational event correspond to assumed proto-Pacific plate motions based on palaeomagnetic data. obviously citing that link

Not sure if this info is retricted to describing just the western half of the koryak belt ? Also not sure if that correctly corresponds to the section header. I'll pop back later see if I can figure it out. EdwardLane (talk) 09:35, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The text sounds good to me. I'm also not sure what is meant with the "western Koryak". In a paper (Tikhomirov 2010, DOI: 10.1134/S1028334X10100168) he distinguishes from west to east Verhoyansk-Chukotka, Okhotsk-Chukotka, Western Koryak and Kamchatka-Koryak. I'm going to see if I can find out how these are distinguished. --Tobias1984 (talk) 14:01, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

OK I've added that text now as it was certainly more legible than the previous version.

Looking around the Category:Geology of Russia I found Central Asian Orogenic Belt which looks like it probably deserves a mention here? EdwardLane (talk) 09:49, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

That whole southern side of Russia is still missing (e.g. the Caucasus, Caspian Sea basin, ...). --Tobias1984 (talk) 10:03, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

My machine is a little too clunky to let me edit a huge article, but I imagine the Russia article has some geography/topology section that may be useful as a starting place for those. And it could probably do with a link to this page either there or in the see also section. EdwardLane (talk) 00:30, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

It's difficult to edit a section above 120 MBytes. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 05:44, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

The question seems moot, someone has rewritten the section without regard to the Russian. I can give the Russian translation, but it is not as good as what stands now, which I have tweaed so it is in essay, not headline style. μηδείς (talk) 06:37, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Medeis, good job tweaking wording. EdwardLane (talk) 10:44, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Ural orogeny

This is the old text of the Ural orogeny section. I hope I included all the points made in these very confusing sentences:

The structure of the Ural-Mongolian orogeny epipaleozoic separating the two ancient platforms highlights areas rifeyskoi, Baikal, Salair, Caledonian and Hercynian orogeny. Yenisei-Sayan-Baikal region and Riphean Baikal orogeny frames the Siberian platform.

I came to the conclusion that the text lists things that are around the Ural and/or compose the Ural + Siberian basin = Ural-Siberian platform. --Tobias1984 (talk) 13:49, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

perhaps surprisingly this Ural_Mountains#Geology has more about the geology than the article is says is the 'main' one EdwardLane (talk) 21:20, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Just found the article Main Uralian Fault - should probably be referenced somewhere in the urals section - but I feel a bit out of my depth at the moment. EdwardLane (talk) 09:43, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Infobox for this article

There is no template for regional geology yet. I tried to make a infobox with a general template for this article. I think it would be best to gather feedback and suggestions on the Wikiproject Geology talk page. --Tobias1984 (talk) 17:24, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Sections temporarily removed

A couple of sections were holding up the DYK process, so I have transferred them here. Once citations are found, they can be restored. RockMagnetist (talk) 17:02, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

had a bit of a look and not certain the bureya massif exists - it seems to be the name of the river basin not any mountain. and judging from the unsources Bureya River article the three adjacent mountain ranges are the redlinks - Turana Range, the Bureinskiy Range and the Ezop Range.

EdwardLane (talk) 00:37, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Here are some citations for what I think needs them. Look it over and if it works add it to the main article. If not, the original is in the revision history. -Al Climbs (talk) 23:10, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm putting west Kamchatka back into the article - it appears to have sufficient references EdwardLane (talk) 10:47, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

the Russian Wikipedia article of Bureinskiy Range showed some information on geology of the range (types of rock and forestation). -- Cybercavalier (talk) 00:39, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Sikhote-Alin orogeny

Position of the Sikhote-Alin mountain chain.

The Sikhote-Alin orogeny took place during the Permian and Triassic when a number of microcontinents collided with the eastern margin of Russia. The Sikhote-Alin orogeny is bounded by the Bureya and Khankaysky massifs which consist of several meridional zones; the western of which are superimposed on the Precambrian continental foundation, and the eastern on oceanic crust of Devonion-Permian age. Shallow Cambrian limestones are known in the western zone, on the eastern edge of which, during the Devonian there lay a volcanic belt. Carboniferous and Permian limestone and volcanic rocks are represented, with the eastern zones composed of thick layers of terrigenous (eroded from the land) and tuffaceous (originating as volcanic ash) silica-bearing geosynclinal sediments of the Triassic and Jurassic.

Some possibly usable material

I have compiled some things that might make usable material for this page. see here. Hopefully it helps. Al Climbs (talk) 11:30, 18 November 2012 (UTC)