Talk:Gentile/Archives/2015/July

"Gentile" is NOT a Biblical word

Texts of the OT

Why is there no discussion of the fact that "Gentile", a Latin derivative, introduces distinctions into the Biblical text that are not part of the original text itself. If neither Hebrew nor Greek create through their own language use the distinctions that are described in this article (and they don't), then this entire article has documented a centuries' old tampering with the Biblical text without bothering to raise a red flag. While the word "selectively" is used in the article to describe this word's introduction into Latin and English translations, there is no attempt to question whether this practice has even a modicum of validity. Astounding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.80.202.131 (talk) 18:10, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

But there is discussion of how it has been used to translate Greek and Hebrew. All translations involve 'tampering' with the text, otherwise they wouldn't be translations. Paul B (talk) 18:12, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

What your limited response does not address, and seemingly dismisses, is the fact that the word "Gentile" is at the same time both an arbitrary and selectively deliberate distinction that is not represented in the original languages. While the word's historical usage stakes out a credible distinction, it is a distinction that is UNBIBLICAL because it is a philological and conceptual anachronism. Let me repeat: the word "Gentile" is an out-of-place anachronism where the Bible is concerned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.80.220.184 (talk) 02:16, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree this is a very interesting point. We would need sources to underpin your point though, if we are to add it into the article. The chart on the right suggests that one of the Vulgate's sources is lost, so you never know - "gentile" could have been translated as it is based on that lost source. Oncenawhile (talk) 08:43, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Paul B, according to the Jewish Encyclopedia, the word of "gentile" is exactly the same as "goy", although goy comes from Late Hebrew "goi" and plural "goyyim" (nation/people) and "gentile" comes from Latin "gens/gentilis" (nation/people). I don't know where you get the idea from that it's somehow unrelated, but the most extensive Jewish encyclopedia simply says, when you try to find the word goy: "See Gentile". Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 00:01, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

That is how the Blue Letter Bible translates it: perfect synonyms. Strong's Concordance word # h1471: גּוֹי, pronounced gowy.[1][2]. Such Biblical verses as are listed here are ambivalent in whether the word (translated "nations") includes Hebrews or only non-Hebrews. By the time we get down into the Deuteronomy verses, it becomes clear that "nations" does not include the Hebrews, but refers only to non-Hebrews. Deu 15:6 - "For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee." By the end of Deuteronomy, we can be sure that "Goyim/nations/Gentiles" was a term of distinction, comparable to Faithful/infidel, Christian/Heathen, etc.: Deu 26:19: "And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken." Deu 28:1: "And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:" Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 02:22, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

derogatory?

Jayjg, Are you saying that Hebrew speakers never use "goy" in a derogatory fashion? That is certainly not true; ask any Israeli. --Zero 07:33, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It can certainly be used in a derogatory fashion. So can almost any word. A good example is "Jew", which has often been used that way. Jayjg 07:55, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

O.K., I've done what I can to clean the whole thing up, though its amazing how much nonsense and purely false information had been placed and left in this article. Since it's an article about the word "Gentile", I've left it at that, and linked it to the word "Goy", which I've also worked hard at cleaning up (similarly filled with nonsense, irrelevancies, and false information). I'll take another pass through goy now. Jayjg 08:41, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The interesting amount of falsehood within this one article caught my attention. The humanistic label, "Goy", is almost exclusively used as a derogatory term, with a historical background of describing outsiders. I might add, though this is no debate between Latin and Greek translations.... That- -I would point out the translation of Gentle into Greek produces = eido̱lolátri̱s. This is more pertinent information, and I also request that Goy not be integrated, it is simply irrelevant concerning "Gentiles" and their history, which is still unclear to the general populace. A term popularized by the Talmud, "Goy". Gentile in Greek = eido̱lolátri̱s | ειδωλολάτρης — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.206.119.141 (talk) 16:09, 31 July 2015 (UTC)