Talk:Gandzak

I deleted the internal link to Gazaka, because it is another city. The corresponding corrections were inserted in Russian Wikipedia article relating to Gazaka, Iran.--Zara-arush (talk) 23:14, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

It is one of possible spellings of Gazaka. Check this article by Bartold in GSE: [1] The link should remain. Grandmaster 08:06, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Then why is there no "Gandzak" mentioned in the actual Gazaka article? Meowy 16:03, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and added it, using the reference given by Grandmaster. Meowy 16:13, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Good. Btw, Gandzak is not Armenian, it is just another Persian spelling variation of Ganja. Grandmaster 06:51, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Are you talking about "The Armenian spelling of Ganja, Azerbaijan" link description? Based only on the article's content I was assuming that it a name the Armenian inhabitants of Ganja called their town. A bit like "Bolis" used for Constantinople. But "an alternative name for Ganja, used by its Armenian inhabitants" seems too long. Meowy 14:17, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Gazaka had never been named Gandzak by thr authors other than Armenian medieval historians. I cannot realize your "iron" logic, when you apply in one place the article of Bartold in Bolshaya Sovetskaya Encyclopedia and in other place delete the name of Gandzak applied to Gyadja in other article of the same Bolshaya Sovetskaya Encyclopedia. Can you explain your logical constructions, when in one place you rely on the article on Ganzak-Gazaka in Iranika, and in other sentenses you add this bright article of Bartold. Thanks in advance for your explanations, --Zara-arush (talk) 02:05, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I was happy enough to communicate with people with logic, so it is hard to understand (for me), when one of your Azeri friends deletes my reference on the article in Bolshaya Sovetskaya Encyclopedia, explaining that Bolshaya Sovetskaya Encyclopedia may not be used as the reference source in Armenian-Azeri conflict articles, and you in the next passage, state Bartold's article in the same Bolshaya Sovetskaya Encyclopedia as the source. Very complicated, really --Zara-arush (talk) 02:08, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Bartold does not say that this spelling was used by Armenians only. No original research please. Grandmaster 07:26, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

There is no personal original research. I try to summarize all the sources. Who else besides Bartold name Gazaka just Ganzdak (without adding Atropatene Gandzak)? --Zara-arush (talk) 18:39, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

See article in Iranica, which is called Ganzak: [2] Ganzak is not much different from Gandzak, it is just a minor spelling variation. Grandmaster 07:55, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

If I write that your knowledge of linguistics and its laws is brilliant, you will reply that I discuss your personality, but there is a science that studies lingustical laws and Ganzak and Gandzak is not the same. they belong to different languages. The article in Iranika on Ganzak explains the differences between Persian and Median roots and words. The similar is the difference between Ganz and Gandz. If you do not believe me, you may ask anyone, who is an expert in Persian. How do you recognize a word in Turkish? If may not know the meaning, but the word may be recognized as a Turkish word. --Zara-arush (talk) 00:02, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

That is your personal opinion. Gandzak existed in Persia too, yet more sources about that: [3] [4] If Gandzak is Armenian name, why the city in Persia was also called Gandzak? Gandzak is just another Median/Persian spelling that was used by Armenians to refer to the city in the Caucasus. But the names of both Iranian and Caucasian cities are of Iranian origin. Grandmaster 11:25, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Who did use toponym "Gandzak", when speaking about Ganzak-Gazaka? Only the Armenians, because Persian word "ganz" is equal to Armenian "gandz", and because they were Armenian and they had written their books for the Armenians, they used "Gandzak".--Zara-arush (talk) 01:11, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Bolshakov writes in the explanations: "Впрочем, сведения ат-Табари слишком кратки, чтобы только на их основании отвергать более подробные данные византийских и армянских источников". - The data of at-Tabari are too brief to reject more detailed data of Byzantine and Armenian sources". It means that Bolshakov used Armenian sources, and one of them - Armenian author Sebeos, who had written the toponym according to the rules of the Armenian language - "Gandzak". In this case, Sebeos is the initial source, and Bolshakov had repeated what Armenian medieval authors had written. So, if you so much want to write Gandzak in this article, you should mention that the form of the toponym - "Gandzak" was used according to Armenian medieval tradition, and they named it as "Persian Gandzak", or "Shastan Gandzak", or "Atrpatakan" Gandzak.--Zara-arush (talk) 01:24, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Gandz is a loan word from Old Iranian. [5] Now if Armenians called various places Gandzak, it does not mean that the name is of Armenian origin. Grandmaster 09:15, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Can you reply, who else in ancient and Medieval sources besides the Armenians named Gazaka - Gandzak? Please, give the names and sources. --Zara-arush (talk) 16:03, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I quoted Bartold that Gandzak was the name of a city in Iran. It is more than enough. Gandzak is just a minor spelling variation of Ganzak. An extra letter "d" does not make it something completely different. It could be used by Armenians only, or by other people too, we have no sources that only Armenians used it, but the fact remains that Gandzak is the name of Iranian origin. Armenians took the word gandz from old Iranian languages. What is the point of this discussion anyway? You claimed that the city in Iran was not called Gandzak, I proved that it was. This is a dismabig page, and all the links included here are valid. So let's stop this discussion, it is becoming pointless. Grandmaster 07:31, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

It's an Armenian word with an Iranic etymology. There is no need to specify that. Sixty percent of English words have a Latin etymology, we don't specify that prior to listing English placenames.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 13:42, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I.e. loanword. No need to mention it here, but no need to claim that it is a word of Armenian origin either. I think this discussion is over. Disambig page is fine the way it is now. Grandmaster 07:06, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Your approach to the rules of linguistics is fantastic. I again write that "Gandzak" was not a widely used name of the city of Gazaka, this name was used only by Armenian medieval authors, and it is an Armenian toponym. Soviet and Russian authors used the form "Gandzak", because they based on the works of the named Armenian medieval historians, and because the information in other language sources was brief. This information shall be added, if one mentions the form "Gandzak".--Zara-arush (talk) 14:35, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a source that only Armenians used the name Gandzak? If not, we have nothing to talk about. Grandmaster 08:39, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a source that says anyone but Armenians use the word Gandzak? I strongly suggest you cease disrupting this page and do something constructive instead. "...from an Armenian word which signifies a treasure": The history of the overthrow of the Roman Empire: and the foundation of the Principle of European States - Page 149, William Cooke Taylor. "Gyanja (known as Gandzak by the Armenian..." -Eastern Europe and the Commonwealth of Independent States, Volume 4‎ - Page 174 Europa Publications Limited - Business & Economics - 1999 - 1337 pages-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 15:43, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

First, we know that Armenian word is a loan word from Old Iranian. Second, your sources do not say that only Armenians used the name Gandzak. Armenians may call Ganja Gandzak, but that does not mean that only Armenians called Ganzak in Iran Gandzak. Bartold certainly does not say so. And third, please mind WP:AGF and comment on content, not the contributor. This disamnig page is fine the way it is. I don't really understand what is the point of this long discussion. We just need to explain that Gandzak could be a reference to various places. Grandmaster 07:37, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Nothing to discuss here. Sources have been provided. -- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 16:07, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

If you still are not happy, we can ask for 3o. Grandmaster 07:39, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I'll be happy, when you will start to act in good faith. Instead you continue the same demagogy you practice in Russian Wiki. You sources do not prove that other authors besides Armenians used this form of the toponym. And it is not a matter of using an Armenian toponym. I wrote in Russian Wiki discussion that this form is used in several dozens of articles, and it is not clear which of the cities are mentioned in each case. Please, donot pretend you do not understand it. And what is "3o" you offer to ask for?--Zara-arush (talk) 02:07, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

First, please mind WP:AGF. Personal attacks are not tolerated here. Second, see here: WP:3o. We can ask someone uninvolved to comment. Grandmaster 15:15, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Before replying to third party, let's make up the points that we may not come to agreement.

What I am not satisfied with and what you, and why?--Zara-arush (talk) 15:03, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Sure. Please explain what you want to add to this page, and which sources support your position. I will do the same and post the request for 3o. But to be honest, I don't really think this dispute is worth anyone's time. This is a disambig page to explain which places the name of Gandzak could refer to. But if you insist that this is a big deal, let's go ahead with 3o. Grandmaster 18:12, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

If anyone still insists on a different wording, let's ask for CU, but coming out of nowhere just to rv is not gonna work. This pretty much looks like an off wiki coordinated action, involving socks and SPAs. So let's follow WP:DR. Write your statement of dispute, and I will write mine, and we will ask someone to comment. But please stop edit warring. Grandmaster 08:32, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Talk to ru.wiki

This article has been discussed in sufficient ru.wiki. See. Bunturk (talk) 06:52, 16 May 2011 (UTC)