Talk:Gallery of country coats of arms/Archive 2014

Edit request on 17 January 2013

Hi, Kindly update the Saudi Arabian Coat of Arms.

AlahdalMohammed (talk) 22:05, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Done: please make your request in a "change X to Y" format. Update it how? To what? Rivertorch (talk) 10:32, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Palestine

I've added the Coat of Arms of Palestine. I imagine some people will oppose this, so I'll just point out that the List of sovereign states article does list Palestine as a sovereign state based on the criteria it uses. As others have pointed out here, Wikipedia should be consistent - so if you think it shouldn't be here, make that argument at the List of sovereign states article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Steve3742 (talk • contribs) 16:50, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Copyright issues?

Can anyone tell if there are any copyright issues with the CoA of the countries missing on the list? Because all of them have images of their own CoA in their individual pages, so is there a reason why they are shown there but not here? Examples are Ghana, Canada, Malaysia... Gvogas (talk) 13:44, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Fair use images can only be used when they are the primary means of visual identification on the page. Thus, copyrighted coats of arms can be used on the page about the country they represent, but they can't be used on gallery pages like this one. Raymond1922 (talk) 22:50, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think I agree. First, national coats of arms are government owned and are therefor not copyrighted as other images are. Second, the use in a list lik this should be considered fair use anyway. Arms Jones (talk) 19:33, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Personally I agree coats of arms belong to the government of a country not one single person therefore, they should not be something that is copyrighted. Furthermore, I also believe that if someone used the coats of arms from the country pages themselves it is not violating copyrights since it is from the same site.Elijahthebrain (talk) 11:44, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Edit request on 11 August 2013

Under the Great Seal of the United States, it should say "obverse" rather than "observe". 74.71.129.126 (talk) 02:04, 11 August 2013 (UTC) 74.71.129.126 (talk) 02:04, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Done RudolfRed (talk) 02:19, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Non-free CoA's - January 2014

The issue whether fair-use coats of arms should be included in this gallery is now discussed at at least six different pages:

• This talk page (inactive)
• User talk:Arms Jones#January 2014
• User talk:SiBr4#Removing of images
• User talk:Werieth (inactive)
• Wikipedia:Non-free content review/Archive_44#Gallery of country coats of arms
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#user:Arms Jones and abuse of non-free media (intended to discuss Arms Jones's behavior only, but seems to have turned into another general discussion on the issue)

Is it an idea to direct at least some of these discussions to one central discussion page (I propose this talk page)? SiBr₄ ("CyberFour") (talk) 11:51, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Suggested change to this page

In view of the discussion at Wikipedia:Non-free content review/Archive_44#Gallery of country coats of arms, it seems a gallery like this is not in line with the guidelines of Wikipedia, according to most people. So may I make a suggestion to change this page?

It could be remade into a list of arms, where the arms are not displayed but where there is a short introduction to each national coat of arms, describing it shortly and setting it in perspective with regards to other national coats of arms, and of course a link to the article on each coat of arms. The list should be remade to be sorted in regional blocks instead of strictly alphabetic, since that way it is easier to compare the arms to eachother: Africa, Europe, MENA, East Asia, the Americas, Oceania. What do you think? Arms Jones (talk) 11:28, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, the NFCR thread is intended to discuss only whether non-free files can be included in this page, and other than Masem's first two comments (and Euryalus's reply to these), I don't see any comments that question whether WP should have a gallery of national coats of arms at all. One or two out of about ten users replying isn't "most people".

As for the proposed change, adding a description for each coat of arms does make the article more encyclopedic, even if all free images are kept. However, there are already articles listing the coats of arms of each continent, complete with description/blazon and link (AF AS EU NA OC SA), so we could as well just transclude those. SiBr₄ ("CyberFour") (talk) 18:00, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

OK, "most people" was an exageration, but Masem and Euryalus has both said this gallery is in violation of WP:IG and Black Kite says so too. If non-free images should be removed and not be replaced by free images (which is what that text said, which I intended to remove from the gallery from the start), it would lead to the same practical end, because a gallery without all the arms is not really a gallery worth having. Werieth's opinion is a bit unclear to me, since it seems that while free images would be allowed, he doesn't seem to think there are any if the coat of arms as such is copyrighted (but heraldic arms as such are not copyrighted, they are protected by another type of intellectual property right). Arms Jones (talk) 13:04, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I think you're misinterpreting the comments from the NFCR page and the text from the article. None of these explicitly say the non-free coats of arms can't/shouldn't be replaced with free ones, but use wordings like "these coat of arms can't be shown". Literally taken, that means that free versions of the CoAs can't be shown either. Though, all instances of such wordings probably either

1. assume that there are no free equivalents and the only available versions of the coat are non-free (and thus can't be shown), or
2. use the word "coats of arms" to stand for the particular images of CoAs that you added (which can't be shown because they're non-free).

Also note that to comply with WP:IG, there is no need to remove all images from the article like you propose. If it is transformed in a table with descriptions for each CoA, like in the lists of coats of arms by continent, it is no longer a gallery and should satisfy the users who criticize the article for violating WP:IG. SiBr₄ ("CyberFour") (talk) 20:10, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

• I think you should be encouraged to expand the article (including the above lists SiBr4 listed) to have more encyclopedic content. If you did have a significant amount of content about each coat of arms where you could satisfactorily meet NFCC, a rationale could be provided to include the copyrighted versions of the coat of arms. However, be aware that Coats of arms of North America doesn't include the copyrighted versions either (for Canada, etc.) because the information provided is not significant commentary and is akin to a gallery. Usually a paragraph(s) is considered enough commentary. For copyrighted coat of arms, within the commentary, you could probably mention it's copyright status as well (no need to mention it's status for free images). Regards, — Moe Epsilon 14:20, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I have started doing this. Please comment on what I have done so far (A and part of B). Arms Jones (talk) 13:01, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

It looks good, though I'm not sure whether the "Alternate symbol" column should be there. Is the emblem of Afghanistan when it was ruled by the Taliban still actually used? For Abkhazia, it could be mentioned that the Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia has its own coat of arms, with a link to Emblem of Abkhazia#Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia, though I don't think the emblem of the ARoA actually needs to be displayed. SiBr₄ (talk) 13:55, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the feedback. I suppose the Taliban emblem may be taken away from the list, but the column for alternate symbols is also meant for lesser coats of arms etc. when they exist, like for Belgium. Arms Jones (talk) 14:24, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 January 2014

can i make this now? PEPSI1355 (talk) 09:11, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

You did not specify any changes. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:37, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Obsolete discussions

This article is not a plain image gallery anymore. Now it has some text attached to each image (at least for the first few letters so far). The discussion about the removal of images from this article as it was before, is therefore irrelevant and obsolete now. To remove images from this gallery now, you have to take the new form of the page into consideration, I think. Arms Jones (talk) 15:53, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Your argument is invalid. Do not re-add the file. Werieth (talk) 16:23, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Layout

A-C have detailed descriptions, the remainder do not. Which is the valid layout? The Almightey Drill (talk) 19:21, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

The article consisted of only galleries until about a month ago, when Arms Jones started replacing them with detailed tables, though it seems like he quit WP after this discussion on his talk page. SiBr₄ (talk) 12:35, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

So is the next thing to do to revert it to galleries, or continue his project. My money is on the first option personally. The Almightey Drill (talk) 15:19, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

If no-one wants to convert the rest to tables now, we can copy the tables to a subpage of this talk page, in case he, or someone else, decides to continue sometime. SiBr₄ (talk) 16:58, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Please finish updating

This request has not been answered because the change that was requested is still in progress. Therefore, it is not considered answer until the changes requested are finished.

Like many other I use this page a lot for reference and am glad to see that is has been being updated. However, I would like to request that the editing that was started i.e. adding descriptions and such be finished within a decent amount of time. I have also noticed that this page has a lot of information and therefore, understand that it may be a few months until it gets fully update, and if the editing process was easier I would be more than will to help update this page. Either way I would like to see this page updated in its entirety, and if possible request that someone contact me about how to correctly use the computer code to correctly help edit this page. Elijahthebrain (talk) 16:19, 17 April 2014 (PHT)

It appears that the editor who was primarily working on that project has left Wikipedia, and little to no progress has been made in the last two months or so. If you'd like to help out that would be welcome! I agree that the table coding is pretty screwy. You might want to check in at the Teahouse and ask around - I'm sure someone there would be happy to help you out. Spending a few days there will also help you get to autoconfirmed status and be able to edit this page. If you have any specific questions I'd also be willing to lend a hand if I can - I'm not particularly an expert at table formatting but I can figure it out if need be. --ElHef (Meep?) 13:24, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Based on the information from the teahouse pages about table editing it does not appear to be overly hard if you use the advanced toolbar and follow the examples shown. However, what still confuses me is where the original user got the information from since not all of it is on the main pages for each coat of arms. Lastly, I have noticed that some say there is no copyright free image, is it not possible to simply take the image from the main page and put it here? Elijahthebrain (talk) 08:38, 20 April 2014 (PHT)

No, because these images are copyrighted, hence the "no copyright-free image" placeholder. Wikipedia allows use of non-free images under certain conditions. An NFCR thread ruled that this page cannot show such images. SiBr₄ (talk) 08:50, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Ok while this makes sense, I personally believe that coats of arms should not be copyrighted, and since it would simply be using photos from the exact same website it is technically not violating copyrights. But, that is just my opinion and I could be wrong.Elijahthebrain (talk) 19:42, 20 April 2014 (PHT)

Using the beta updates I have found an easier way to continue updating this page. However, this is beyond my editing abilities and therefore I request that someone else finish updating this page. Note: The beta works on Google ChromeElijahthebrain (talk) 10:24, 29 April 2014 (PHT)

I have closed this edit request only on the grounds that the {{edit semi-protected}} tag is only to be used by editors who are not autoconfirmed, and it must be accompanied by a specific "Change X to Y" request. "Add X before/after Y" or "Delete X" are also acceptable. Feel free to continue the discussion on improving the article, and if you do have a specific change request that the page protection prevents you from making, feel free to reactivate this edit request. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 02:51, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I would like to request that the editing that was started i.e. adding descriptions and such be finished within a decent amount of time. I have also noticed that this page has a lot of information and therefore, understand that it may be a few months until it gets fully updated. Elijahthebrain (talk) 11:27, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Re-close this edit request for exactly the same reason as above:-
The {{edit semi-protected}} tag is only to be used by editors who are not autoconfirmed, and it must be accompanied by a specific "Change X to Y" request. "Add X before/after Y" or "Delete X" are also acceptable.
Feel free to discuss improving the article, but as your account should be autoconfirmed, you can edit the article yourself, and you should not be making edit semi-protected requests.
We are all volunteers, and work on topics that interest us, if no-one else is interested in completing this article, it is up to you SODOIT - if you make a mistake, it can easily be undone. Arjayay (talk) 12:18, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

In Progress: The page's protection level and/or your user rights have changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(t • e • c)} 12:40, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Is it possible for someone to continue and finish the work start by other users i.e. changing the page from a gallery to a table article with the information about each coat of arms or emblem. I personally would do this myself however, I lack the coding knowledge to do so. Thank you. Elijahthebrain (talk) 06:10, 17 July 2014 (UTC) 00:21, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Please do not use the edit-semi-protected template, simply because you do not like the format of the page - this is for specific requests in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ"- Arjayay (talk) 15:37, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

The request clearly stated that the format needs to changed and the information needs to be added in order to finish the x meaning gallery to y meaning table with the information format. Therefore, it is a matter of adding information which is best done by also changing the format to match that of the beginning of the page.

Thank you Elijahthebrain (talk) 06:10, 17 July 2014 (UTC) [[ 23:33, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 02:02, 24 June 2014 (UTC+2)

What is this even supposed to mean and why does it need to be done. Can't someone simply update the page like requested below.Elijahthebrain (talk) 08:56, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Why are people being so difficult about updating this page. All that I am simply asking is for someone to finish the work of changing this page from the gallery format that 3/4 of the page is in now to match the first 1/4 of page. However, nobody seems to be able to do this without asking questions or being difficult in some way. So once again I will ask that somebody please finish the work of changing this page from the gallery format that 3/4 of the page is in now to match the first 1/4 of page, and include the matching information that goes in the table for each coat of arms. Thank you, in advance for your understanding, and I look forward to seeing the update of this page done by the end of the year without any difficulties.Elijahthebrain (talk) 06:10, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes - someone can update the page - you can - WP:SODOIT

Please stop repeatedly mis-using the Semi-protected Edit request template. This is only for requests that cannot be made due to page protection, but as you are autoconfirmed, you can edit the page.

With reference to your text above, nobody is "being so difficult about updating this page" - we are all volunteers and editors choose to work on whatever aspect interests them
It appears that you are the only person who is particularly interested in completing this page, so it is up to you to do it, not expect someone else to do it for you.
There is little point in setting invented deadlines, like a frustrated schoolteacher, this is more likely to antagonize people than encourage them. - Arjayay (talk) 09:50, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I thought my advice sounded familiar, so I checked the page history, and discovered that you had deleted my reply to one of your numerous previous requests, so I have re-instated it above.
Do not delete or refactor others contributions to a talk-page, as this is considered vandalism, however, it proves that you read, and ignored, that previous advice.
I note that my latest response was remarkably consistent with my previous advice:-

"as your account should be autoconfirmed, you can edit the article yourself, and you should not be making edit semi-protected requests.
We are all volunteers, and work on topics that interest us, if no-one else is interested in completing this article, it is up to you SODOIT - if you make a mistake, it can easily be undone."

Having been warned about your incorrect use of the Semi-protected edit request template four times, any further use of it will be clear vandalism. Arjayay (talk) 10:13, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Liechtenstein

Could someone change the current state coat of arms of Liechtenstein to file:Staatswappen-Liechtensteins.svg. There are major mistakes in the current file. The law provides that:

1. on the second quarter the field should be barry of eight and not barry of ten (arms of the house of Kuering, not of the house of Saxony)
2. on the fourth quarter the head of the harpy should be argent and not proper
3. the mantle should be purpure and not gules and

See original text here : https://www.gesetze.li/Seite1.jsp?LGBlm=1982058 . Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.249.26.72 (talk) 14:51, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

 Done. SiBr₄ (talk) 14:55, 17 May 2014 (UTC)