Talk:Gainax/Archives/2012

Standard for Japanese entries

Is there a standard for Japanese-related entries? Things like romanisation, name order and what case is used for various romanised words are pretty arbitrary. So much so that I found the last edit more of a nitpicking attempt than anything productive. I hope there is a standard so at least everything can be consistent. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mib (talk • contribs) .

You might want to look at Wikipedia:Manual of Style for Japan-related articles. Pyrop 02:41, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)

Not a parody

Genesis Climber Mospeada is not parodied in Daicon III. In fact, Mosepeda did not air until 1983 so it would really be quite impossible. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.55.76.189 (talk • contribs) .

Yeah, I saw that one..

I noticed the mention of Mospeada (which, IIRC, actually was released in 1984) and knew that it was way out of the timeframe of Daicon III, and went and deleted it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.52.210.36 (talk • contribs) .

Inline refs

This article needs some serious sourcing. I've done a couple as examples, and marked many of the places which need sources. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 01:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• God, I've heard of so many people use the term "Gainax Bounce" before, but I don't know of any "official" source for it, other than fan sites. There is a section on AnimeNation.com called "Ask John" where I'm sure he's identified it. He's kind of a go-to for information like that, maybe we could cite him? Shadowrun 16:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Order of information

This article has some serious problems with it. I thought the "tax evasion" bit was better off under company history rather than in the first paragraph. The sentence mentions Gainax's "history of financial troubles" yet only cites one recent incident. Regardless, I felt this was better off not in the introductory paragraph. Tried to adjust the grammar for simplicity, neutrality, and to remove the fanboyish tone in the opening sections.

--211.125.219.40 11:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Removed fan sites from External Links

Fan sites are generally not acceptable. Please see links to be avoided #13 if you have a question. Leebo⁸⁶ 04:42, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Removed GainaxBoy

Removed GainaxBoy mention. It's not related at all to the actual works Gainax has done.

Taiki 05:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

All-Capitals

Is "Gainax" normally in all capitals, "GAINAX"?--Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici

GAINAX Bounce

Was Top wo Nerae really the first example of the GAINAX Bounce? The Daicon IV video has a distinctive breast bounce at a point, and precedes Top wo Nerae by 5 years or so. ArchMageZeratuL 14:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

GAINAX didn't exist until they formed to create Wings of Honneamise. Xenofan 29A 01:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

That's taking way too narrow a view of things. Legally, that may be true, but everyone else (and this article) trace Gainax back to Daicon Film making stuff for Daicon III. --Gwern (contribs) 01:09 27 March 2008 (GMT)

The part of the Gainax article mentioning "Gainax bounce" was deleted a year ago, on April 11, 2008, when the whole section on "Reputation in America" was deleted. So this part of the talk page is moot, unless that section is reinstated, or a new Wiki article on "Gainax bounce" is written (if that topic is thought memorable enough). Meanwhile, the redirect from "Gainax bounce" to "Gainax" should be killed, since it leads to no information on this interesting topic. Giles Martin (talk) 21:31, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Found a reference on it, for Gunbuster.

From Protoculture Addicts #43, pg 52:

"Gunbuster, Vol. 1-3"

'GUNBUSTER, like all of GAINAX's productions, is classic that has not lost its charm with time. Haruhiko Mikimoto's character designs are still as beautiful and endearing as they were nearly ten years ago and the animation is just superb in its detailing and crispness (this is the animation that introduced the now famous GAINAX effect. Bounce, bounce!). The soundtrack is pretty good, although a little weak in moments that would have needed powerful music (except, of course, for the last episodes, with "Mars: The Harbinger Of War" playing during the last battle). The story is extraordinary, going from cottony sweet to heart wrenching, but never falling in the obvious cliches. Anno and the others wanted to do a parody, but the mood changed with time and it became a beautiful story dealing with love and loss (someone who does not shed a tear in the last two episodes is not human). The three volumes are available and should be bought together, for viewing this saga in one shot makes it that much more powerful. An undeniable masterpiece...'

Just because we find it difficult in 2010 to dig up references doesn't mean it was far from common knowledge and no RS discussions of it existed back then. --Gwern (contribs) 21:38 20 March 2010 (GMT)

Here's another reference (and I note that more than a year later, no one has made use of the RS I dug up for them); from "The Return of the Otaking: The Studio Gainax Saga in Four Parts", Animerica volume 4, issue 3:

"GAINAX GIRL GUNBUSTER's bubbly yet determined heroine Noriko Takaya (above). OTAKU NO VIDEO's famous 'Misty May' (close kin to "bunny-girl" of the Daicon IV Opening Anime) aside, Noriko's brief but bouncy walk up the road (amply demonstrating her braless status) in GUNBUSTER's opening credits instituted a new phrase into anime jargon--the 'Gainax bounce'."

--Gwern (contribs) 22:59 15 August 2011 (GMT)

Third reference, Toshio Okada:

"Daicon IV" was deliberately made to be the same length and cel count as "Diacon III" - however, its particular theme was slightly darker, along the lines of destroy the old to create the new. It also played with the fun of half-losing one's sanity - the semi-insanity necessary to devote oneself to anime.

In this film, the school girl returns as a woman in a bunny suit who defies all the old anime characters (including glimpses of Western cartoon characters) as she surfs (on a flying sword) her way to victory.

But this film also generated waves.

For example, an audience member happened to ask about the "GAINAX bounce," a characteristic jiggling of the female cartoon character's breasts. This was apparently introduced in "Daicon IV" by Mr. Yoshiyuki Sadamoto, who added in the margin of the animation instructions: "Make this scene a little erotic (H)." The animation industry reacted with shock to this animation ("Is it OK to do this kind of thing?") and of course the technique was promptly adopted by other animation houses, including Cream Lemon's porn features.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080504115212/http://www.mit.edu/people/rei/manga-okada.html --Gwern (contribs) 01:29 22 August 2011 (GMT)

Fourth reference; The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction 3rd edition, Gunbuster entry:

Top o Nerae prefigures the apocalypse of the same studio's later {SHINSEIKI EVANGELION}, and in depicting humanity fighting on the "wrong" side, is one of the better anime allegories of WORLD WAR TWO. It is also a lynchpin of fan service (> {ANIME}), discarding the traditional square-jawed heroes of SPACE OPERA in favour of buxom girls in leotards modelled on the 1964 Olympics Japanese women's gymnastics uniform. Notoriously, the animators chose to present the last battle as a succession of still images, but allocated significant budget on realistic breast dynamics (now known as the "Gainax bounce"), a precursor of the following decade as anime pandered to an ever-decreasing audience of single adult males in JAPAN.

--Gwern (contribs) 20:10 10 October 2011 (GMT)

Have incorporated some of this into fan service. --Malkinann (talk) 06:59, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Reputation in America

I don't find this to be slander. Many articles have info on it's reputation, and about how they effected culture. If this is slander please explain how. (I do acknowledge the fact that it may need to be re-written a little bit, and the wording could be changed. BUT delete the whole thing? Nah...no reason. unless you want to go and delete every reputation and "how it effected culture" part in every article.) - Prede (talk) 01:08, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I think slander is a rather strong term (and incorrect as it's technically libel), but I still support the deletion. The content is weak. It's a description of a bunch of neologisms that is backed up only by blogs and public wikis. I've heard the term "gainax bounce" before, and I seem to recall representitives of gainax have actually commented on it in interviews (absolutely no proof, I could be very wrong). I think the content should be removed until it can be supported by a real article from, for example, an anime magazine such as newtype, or at least an article from a regular columnist on a site such as animenewsnetwork. -Verdatum (talk) 16:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Which one would you like? --Gwern (contribs) 22:28 25 March 2008 (GMT)

Which one would I like? Well, of the four real hits only one is a post by an actual columnist, and that article only mentions the term implicitly in passing. -Verdatum (talk) 14:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I only scourced it with those "bad" websited becuase all this was here before, so I figurered it was better to scource it with websites like that, then leave it with tho refferences at all. I am sure all this stuff is true. Gainax bounce and Gainax endings are two new terms due to this company. Like I said before I support a re-wording or editing of this section, and adding better scources, sense I know there are some ^.^ . Don't delete this whole section. - Prede (talk) 23:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I have just re-made the whole section on "Reputation in American". It could use better sources (which are out there I know) and a bit of a re-write/re-wording/editing. But please don't delete this whole section. It is not slander(well libel) nor is it orginal research. If you do want to delete it please state so here and the reasons, don't just delete it :( . Also the rest of that section could use a bit of an expension, focusing on how Americans veiw Gainax more then what "words" and "terms" they coined/created. - Prede (talk) 02:17, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that the whole section is, quite frankly, outdated and obsolete. This isn't the dark ages when hardly anyone knew what anime was and fansubbed videotapes were traded in dark alleys - now the anime industry is big in America, and fansubs are widely available due to the growth of the internet, so things like "bouncy breasts" and "strange endings" are no longer regarded as unique to Gainax, and have not been for many years. Gainax is now just another anime studio, with a particular reputation for quality due to the number of highly popular animes they've been responsible for. Evangelion's uniqueness is now identified mainly with Hideaki Anno rather than Gainax as a whole, confusing endings are now fairly widespread and are no longer closely associated with Gainax, and bouncing breasts are now commonplace in anime while the term "Gainax Bounce" is twenty years old and refers to an anime that is no longer widely known. The unreliability of the references for that section only supports my point - when you can't find a better reference for "Gainax Bounce" than a fifteen-year-old newsgroup post listing someone's favorite made-up terms, it's safe to say it's no longer known in American culture. Your sources for "Gainax Ending" are just a blog and a wiki, neither of which are considered acceptable sources for Wikipedia. I'm removing "Gainax Bounce" from that section for now (while leaving it on the Gunbuster article, where it's more relevant), and I'll leave "Gainax Ending" up pending debate of these points on the talk page. In my opinion, though, the whole "Reputation in America" section should be removed because it's no longer relevant due to the evolution of the American anime fandom, though the part about fanservice should be kept somewhere on the article, since it's still relevant and well-sourced) 146.201.133.75 (talk) 03:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but Anime News Network is nobody. No one. They have zilch, zero, nada authority over anything whatsoever. Triangulate a popular opinion using multiple bona fide journalistic sources, get an interview with someone in the GAINAX staff, or else it's just cheeseball nerdfan JUNK (preferably, get an opinion of the GAINAX staff of JAPAN, too--speaking of which, what's with the scam resume of Lea Hernandez and Shon Howell smothering the blatantly overhyped "further reading" section?) I particularly like how anime fans not understanding the end of Evangelion means Gainax should be embarrassed. Maybe we should all go toilet paper David Lynch's wikipedia page since no one understands his work either? Do you think it's likely there's a shortage of cheap blog rants about that? Try going there and writing "Lynch endings came to be known as abrupt, stupid and impossible to grok". Can we as anime fans try to be just a little less trashy, please? Mistertruffles (talk) 07:17, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I still support having that section there. anime news network is useble in this situation, I can't see why not? I think the user Gwern agrees with me that it is not there to "harm" the company, it is just the companies rep in America. This is not written as libel, stop acusing it as such. Many articles have info on their repuataion in a certain country. I agree the section needed to be re-written/re-wored, BUT not deleted. Can't we re-write it, in a non "trashy" way? Let's think fo a way to write this in a way that does not take sides or make the comapany look good or bad. All I feel is needed is to discuss certian words they helped populize and some Repuatation in America. It could use better sources through. The section was not written to "embarrass" Gainax. Comments? - Prede (talk) 20:00, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Mistertruffles, ANN is not nobody, they are an established commercial entity with a history of attributed sources, fact checking, and the publication of errata notices when they learn they have misrepresented a story. While individual articles should be judged on a case-by-case basis, for a topic such as this (the perceptions of an anime production company by Americans) they certainly could quality as a Reliable Source. However, since we don't even have that, it is a moot point. -Verdatum (talk) 19:57, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right, they're not complete and utter dreck. I do agree with you that a stray American columnist pontificating aloud is sketchy, but moreso there really shouldn't be a "reputation" section based on one columnist from one site. As it turns out, it's kind of irrelevant anyway -- the links i removed with the section were all from blogs and complete junk. In fact, none of them even argued that Gainax coined "fan service" as far as I could tell; they just said what fan service is. Mistertruffles (talk) 22:19, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Here's the problem. What we're essentially discussing is the right of the fan community to have their opinion known. But the fan community doesn't have that right. Just because some fans popularized the word "Narutard" doesn't mean the Naruto page should have a section discussing how fans of the show are perceived overwhelmingly as idiots. This is the same. The only way "Narutard" would be discussable is in the context of an overwhelming journalistic acknowledgement of it, and even then it would be in the context of a public debate over its cultural significance. Just because something is largely perceived as base, or sarcastically received by portions of the populace, doesn't mean Wikipedia should be home for their beliefs, or else Paris Hilton's page would say "she is popularly thought of as a dick-sucking money-grubbing whore". However, it is possible to do things like report on a major news outlet's poll, as they do on Hilton's page where the public voted her "Worst Celebrity Role Model of 2006". At any rate, there is no widespread public or journalistically acknowledged acceptance that Gainax endings are cheap or confusing. Hell, 90% of the shows they've done have utterly reasonable endings, and for the most part the studio is critically acclaimed. As for the bounce, that whole thing is a little silly if you ask me. Noriko's breasts bounce in Gunbuster a lot during the first episode, and after that it really isn't that big a deal. The whole thing is overinflated fan junk to make a few people feel clever. Similarly, the end of Gunbuster isn't considered cheap just because they ran out of paint; it's very well animated. The end of KareKano by comparison is a blatant junk ending, production-wise. But that's just one series - it's not fair to make Gainax sound like shoddy worksmen and breast-obsessed idiots, especially since they've been heralded as home to some of the most ambitious animation in the history of the medium. Especially not based on a couple nobody, know-nothing bloggers! And ultimately that's the problem with Anime News Network. It's just hacky fan nobodies. Mistertruffles (talk) 07:45, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

But they also helped populize the term "Fan service" . That was a word coined by them. The Gainax Ending could be RE-WRITTEN in a non-negative way, same goes for the bounce...sigh... - Prede (talk) 20:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Nobody says "fan service" in Japan as far as I know. There's a term "saabisu" that's obviously "service," and means "fan service". But that's just me being a stickler. At any rate, if we have evidence that they coined the term (and by evidence I mean a Japanese interview or, failing that, journalistic proof outside of hack websites), I'm all for putting it up as a piece of trivia. I don't see that proof anywhere on the web and I can't read Japanese. The stuff about Gainax endings I'm unilaterally opposed to, because their endings are either ordinary or poetic for the most part, and anyone who wants to be made aware of Evangelion's ending being considered "weird" or "ambiguous" can go deal with that on the Eva page. Mistertruffles (talk) 06:04, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

They helped coin the Term in AMERICA thus, being in the "Reputation in America" section. Also Due to their work on endings (useally "weird" and/or "ambiguous") the term "Gainax Ending" was created. As well as the popular "Gainax Bounce" from their early work. There is nothign negative about these terms. Unless you want to go and delete every reputation and "how it effected culture" part in every article, there is no reason this needed to be deleted. I still can't see why we can't remove any negative wording and still have the section?.- Prede (talk) 18:52, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) I fail to see how this section is notable at all – the term "Gainax ending" *could* be gotten away with, assuming you could find some good, reliable sources for it beyond blog and fansite posts, which aren't noteworthy sources anyways. However, as has been stated above, there don't seem to be any noteworthy sources whatsoever that discuss "Gainax bounce", and no, a passing mention in what amounts to a blog post doesn't qualify. As for "fan service", this is hardly unique to Gainax and has been around since before their time. Unless you can demonstrate – once again, through reliable sources – that Gainax has had a significant influence on how fan service is presented in anime or perceived and received by the general public, it merits no mention in this article. And the section in general should be titled "Reputation" (or, probably better, "Reception") instead of "Reputation in America". I'm really wanting to assume good faith on your part, Prede, but you seem to be on a personal crusade to get this information included in the main article at all costs. You may want to step back from this one and contribute elsewhere for awhile. —Dinoguy1000 19:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Just to correct some of your invokations of guidelines, notability is specifically in relation to the existence of articles, not content. For more information, read Notability is not content. However, your intentions still seem to hold true. Content should come from "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Since all the article has is the comments of non-reputable bloggers, all it can say is, "according to some bloggers..." which I believe converts the claims into facts that are too trivial to include in this article. -Verdatum (talk) 19:57, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Aah, thanks for the catch. As you may have been able to tell, I haven't really taken the time to read the notability guidelines in detail, rather just skimming through them as necessary and picking up the major points based on other discussions. I'll definitely try to remember this in the future. ;) —Dinoguy1000 23:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm agreeing with what Verdatum said ^ . AND by the way I am not on some "personal crusade" or anything. If I was I would probally keep editing the artcile, putting back the stuff that you guys don't think should go there.(that would be pretty jerky of myself too...) I am just talking about what "I" think should be on the artcile. If everyone else disagrees with what I am saying, then of course I won't put it up there. But some other section should be up on this page imo. - Prede (talk) 22:52, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course, I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything... I was just expressing my feelings towards the whole thing – which, in retrospect, probably would have been better kept to myself. If you'd like, you can have a free shot at me... Seriously, I used to get it all the time on other sites. ^^; —Dinoguy1000 23:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

eh that's alright. No need to take a shot at ya. It might look like what your saying anyway. Just be assured it's not ^.^ What you said didn't bother me or anything, just saying it's not true... - Prede (talk) 23:40, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad that's sorted; I don't think Prede is being rude, just trying to preserve something he finds amusing or notable. In the interest of being constructive, I do think there is room for a section discussing how ambitious GAINAX is, and their subtle relationship with anime cliches, and the section could encompass certain notable eccentricities. Unfortunately, however, there isn't much access to Japanese journalism or GAINAX interviews. They are obviously pivotal in the history of anime, and do have an esoteric attitude toward their work, but I would like acknowledgment or dissection of this to come from a combination of GAINAX-related and journalistic sources. Maybe something will come up. I'll look. I do think the page is kind of dull right now, considering who they are. Mistertruffles (talk) 21:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Well that is something I can agree with you on^ . I am a Gainax fan after all. - Prede (talk) 23:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Hideaki Anno/Studio Khara/Neon Genesis Evangelion leaving Gainax; predictions of doom

See http://www.japanator.com/rumor-gainax-and-evangelion-remakes-splitting-up--15139.phtml

No smoking guns yet, but it's a mess of small details and statements by various involved people. Needless to say, this would be a big deal since NGE is one of the iconic Gainax properties and probably its biggest moneymaker ever, even if we don't credit Shunji's prediction that Gainax will be bankrupt in 2-3 years. (It's true that Gainax seems to always be on the edge, but then, they have a lot of options available to quickly scrounge cash.)

I suggest that everyone do their best to keep an eye out and not let our various articles get outdated. --Gwern (contribs) 08:05 6 July 2010 (GMT)

Tenchou

In case we ever get an article on it...

AQ Is there any chance that they (Gainax staff) are going to voice act any characters in their own series? Mr. Yamaga No, I'll never do that. Mr. Akai There is an animation shop chain called Animate and they have a character called 'Anime Store Manger', a shopkeeper. The illustrator who is doing the drawings for the character is also doing the voice acting for the commercials. He is actually a friend of theirs from college. He actually did voice acting in Royal Space Force. He did a soldier very far away saying 'Attention' in a fictional foreign language. He (Mr. Yamaga) actually did the breath, 'huff huff', of the main character. The noise made by the main character throwing up was done by the character designer. {Laughter}

http://web.archive.org/web/20040101025405/http://www.anime-tourist.com/article.php?sid=299 --Gwern (contribs) 22:39 13 August 2011 (GMT)

Manga Impact

Manga Impact: The World of Japanese Animation, 6 December 2010, ISBN 978-0714857411; pg 60:

In 1981, Anno Hideaki, Sadamoto Yoshiyuki and Yamaga Hiroyuki were part of a group of students with a passion for anime. They got together to make two acclaimed short films, and founded Gainax in December 1984.
Their first professional project was a feature film, Oritsu Uchugun Honneamise no Tsubasa (Wings of Honneamise, 1987, dir. Yamaga Hiroyuki). As science fiction and anime fans themselves, they made works with wide fan appeal, and their dynamic, original style has made a huge impact on audiences all over the world. Even when adapting existing manga, as in Re: Cutey Honey (2004), Gainax brings their own unique qualities to the work. They are widely considered one of Japan's most original anime companies.
This originality shines in titles such as OAV series Top o Nerae! Gunbuster (Gunbuster, 1988) and TV series Fushigi no Umi no Nadia (The Secret of Blue Water, 1990). TV series Neon Genesis Evangelion (Shinseiki Evangelion, 1995) is probably their greatest success worldwide, and is often described as a turning point in anime history. Other works include TV series Kareshi Kanojo no Jijyo (His and Her Circumstances, 1998), Abenobashi Mahoh Shotengai (Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi, 2002), Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann (Gurren Lagann, 2007) and the OAV Otaku no Video (1991).
H.M. Helen McCarthy

--Gwern (contribs) 19:49 23 December 2011 (GMT)