Talk:French Sudan

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Does anyone know why on earth it was called Soudan, when the British Sudan was thousands of kilometres away near the other side of the continent? It seems odd for two places so far removed to have the same name. --Saforrest 13:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, what he or she said! I was just about to add that exact question; instead, let me second it. I too am puzzled by this odd sharing of names--Rkstafford 14:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I concur! Mindman1 00:45, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Sudan and Soudan are generic European terms for the Savana climate belt that runs across Africa, just south of the Sahel (the semi arid zone south of the Sahara). The colonial territories were British Sudan and French Soudan. Someone should add this to Sudan. :T L Miles 13:22, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Flag

What is the person on the flag doing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.114.84 (talk) 22:55, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move. There isn't a strong consensus to do so, but, as noted by AbstractIllusions (the main opponent, in fact), even a no consensus should default to the original title of French Sudan. -- tariqabjotu 06:45, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

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French Soudan → French Sudan – Both French Sudan and French Soudan are used as the predecessor to Mali but I think French Sudan is slightly more prevalent for example BBC Tim! (talk) 06:26, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Oppose for now. See comments below.AbstractIllusions (talk) 13:32, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
• Support contemporary publications generally use "French Sudan".John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:17, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
• Support. I like AbstractIllusions' take on the whole thing--classy, classy, all the way through. But I disagree; I think the name "Sudan" should always be written like that in an English-language encyclopedia, just as we say "French Africa", not something awkward like "French Afrique". Red Slash 05:48, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

User:Red Slash can you present figures please on how many times French Sudan is used to refer to Mali and how many times it is used generally of all of French West Africa, because that is Abstract Illusions point. I ask because your contributions at a number of RMs are so badly researched as to be bordering on disruptive. I'd like to AGF but am not convinced you have grasped at all what Abstract Illusions is saying, nor does your "French Afrique" comment suggest you searched "French Soudan" vs "French Sudan" in Google Books before posting. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:12, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your honest words, I appreciate seeing your perspective. We have a word for "French Sudan" as he defines it (meaning all of french West Afrique--whoops, Africa. That term, unsurprisingly, is French West Africa). Whether or not the title is French Sudan or French Soudan, one will redirect to the other, so the "distinction" will not actually distinguish anything. In modern writing (NYT, etc.) we do not distinguish. "Soudan" simply doesn't exist outside of a very narrow strip of academia (in the English language).

I used my instincts because I am actually pretty good at using and understanding English, and have a reasonably good nose for what the common names for things are in my native language. Even though I've made mistakes before, I had a feeling this time that reliable sources in this language would not have used a spelling that I have never ever encountered in English before. Guess what? I'm right again! Not even close! There is no real evidence presented that this distinction that maybe a professor or two has tried to make ever actually took off in reality. I respect AbstractIllusions for trying their best to support the distinction (he/she was probably instructed by one of the few who did) but, umm, there's no evidence here or elsewhere that I see that this is the case in general, natural, common English, which prefers FWA for the larger area and French Sudan for Mali's predecessor. Red Slash 22:24, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

User:Red Slash - you "used your instincts" and "I had this feeling"? Can we please ask that you do not "use your instincts" and your "feeling" in future. The ngram doesn't show "Guess what? I'm right again! Not even close!" instead it shows "French Soudan" increasing and "French Sudan" declining post 1990 to a point where the former is near to overtaking. When something is this close it then becomes an area of expertise, which is why you and I should leave this to experienced Africa editors. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:12, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? There seems to be a divide between "academic" and general (common) usage, and you and I both know which one we prefer at Wikipedia. It's no surprise that during Mali's push for independence, the common, normal usage (French Sudan) would have surged. But once the surge was over, again, the standard, normal usage receded while academic usage apparently stayed the same. Red Slash 03:11, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I think this has veered off the issue a little bit. The question is not academic versus general usage (both vacillate between spellings seemingly at random, see CNN using Soudan in August and Sudan in January of the same year!). The question is about clarity: "French Sudan" is used in both common and academic usage to mean multiple things (hence a reason the NGRAM should be treated skeptically, some of those hits aren't talking about the colony, as I show below). "French Soudan" is used only to mean the 50 year colony that became Mali, but is a far less used spelling than Sudan for the colony. I think/thought it wise to get a name that is the most precise and unlikely to lead to incorrect information being added to the page. Others believe we should go with the most common usage (in both academic and popular sources) or conversely could believe that the potential clarity problem is overstated. I have no problem with any of these arguments, and they all seem legit. Either spelling is a good option, but that's the issue (rather than some academic vs. popular split). If I could rephrase the question: although French Sudan is the more popular spelling, are there significant enough gains for clarity to justify using French Soudan? AbstractIllusions (talk) 19:14, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Question Abstract Illusions - can you present any source which distinguishes "French Sudan" (larger area) and "French Soudan" (more exact area)? I just did a GB for sources which use both in same text, but not seeing any distinction. But then I don't know the topic, evidently you and John Pack Lambert do.

• To Answer the very fair question, the clearest answer is No. Roberts is the closest we come to making a distinction between "Sudan" and "Soudan" and choosing "Soudan" for clarity reasons. Conversely, Peterson shows a similar attention to French and English spellings and goes with "Sudan" over "Soudan". I will say that the popular press has almost uniformly settled on "French Sudan" for current usage (they vacillated for contemporary usage) and regional academic descriptions of the colonial period typically use "French Sudan" for the colony. I also don't want to overstate the confusing usages, they are few and far-between. But once again, there are confusing usages: like here, here, here, etc. Hope that helps. AbstractIllusions (talk) 14:54, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, that was a clear and straight answer. I think then that leaves this User neutral, there seems to be little in it in terms of usage and some, but not very clear, advantage in disambiguation. Thanks for the answer. Pass. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:06, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• Disclaimer first: The page was at "French Sudan" and I moved it a couple months back. The problem is that "French Sudan" is often used as a shorthand for all of French West Africa (see here), while "French Soudan" is only used in English text for the former colony (Roberts books show this). The question then is this: Do we go with the more common term which may be confusing or do we go with the less common term that is clear. VIAF appears to prefer "French Sudan" in English(see here). I'm ambivalent--although I have a preference right now, if it goes back after deliberation, I'll be just as happy. AbstractIllusions (talk) 13:32, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

• Here is Robert's justification (see Note on Orthography): "The retention of the French ou is especially important in the distinction between Western Sudan and the French Soudan. I use the Western Sudan to refer to the precolonial space that eventually became Soudan under French colonial rule. These distinctions help underscore the historical specificity from the colonial period." The distinction between the colony and the region seems a good reason for ou. AbstractIllusions (talk) 13:37, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

• The Columbia-Lippincott Gazeteer, published in 1952 and the leading American gazeteer of the time, calls the place "French Sudan". This seems a popular enough source to indicate it was the general view.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:18, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

• Good point for sure. There's plenty of sources that use "French Soudan" also. A quick proquest search showed that "French Soudan" was used by the Washington Post (August 24, 1960), The Times of India (January 15, 1960), Boston Globe (9 September 1954), New York Herald (January 5, 1945), Pittsburgh Courier (March 9, 1940), New York Times (July 23, 1936), etc (Note, many of these publications went back and forth on usage- i.e. the New York Times has a dozen articles with "French Sudan" and a dozen with "French Soudan"). But the question isn't which one was more popular, "French Sudan" was and is the more popular name, the question is which is the most clearly specified name to avoid confusion and hopefully lead to improvement in this article. Considering that "French Sudan" is used in popular sources to refer to 1. the region of West Africa that the French took over, 2. The early establishment of the colonial structure and not specifically the colony that became Mali, and 3. the Colony, it seems there are good reasons to create a clear title for the page. "French Soudan" in English is only used to refer to the colony making it a clearer name. Even if less popular, the clarity of ou seems to be something that should be part of our decision. AbstractIllusions (talk) 17:44, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

• Closing Admin please take note Although I acted in good faith trying to improve the article with the move and did not think there was an objection, this discussion shows that there is a good faith objection. If the discussion closes as no consensus, the page should be moved back to "French Sudan" without the ou. That page should be the default page unless this discussion results in consensus to keep the 'ou'. Thank you. AbstractIllusions (talk) 17:48, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Tuareg Policy

I've added significantly to the page the past couple of days and it now at least includes the major parts of the colony for further development. However, I don't have time to delve into the complex and difficult Tuareg policy of the colony during the 60 years of existence. For any future editors, this is a key area for possible expansion. Cheers. AbstractIllusions (talk) 03:27, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:French Sudan/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Brigade Piron (talk · contribs) 17:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC) Hello! I'm happy to review this, if that's OK? It's always nice to see more high-class African articles! Looks pretty close to GA, with just some minor tweaks needed but I'll read it through properly and leave more specific feedback presently.Brigade Piron (talk) 17:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you for reviewing this, Brigade Piron! I notice that the original nominator, QatarStarsLeague, has not edited Wikipedia in nearly a month, and this nomination has been open a week with no activity. I would hate to see this fail to achieve GA status when it's so close to passing. So I'm volunteering to take over an nominator, and I'll gladly step aside if QatarStarsLeague returns. I'll try to address your concerns below as best I can. I hope to finish in the next day or two. – Quadell ^(talk) 18:33, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Thank you very much for that! It would have been a shame for it to fail on a technicality! I'm very happy to pass it, congratulations!Brigade Piron (talk) 14:06, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Body of the article (more-or-less chronological)

• First sentence; it's not quite clear what it is, relative to AOF. Could you perhaps rephrase it to something like: "...was a French territory and part of the colony of French West Africa from around 1880 until 1960."?
  • Well, the French West Africa article describes it as "a federation of eight French colonial territories". I reworded the first sentence here to be clearer and more accurate. Hope it's okay now? – Quadell ^(talk) 18:33, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

• "French Sudan originally formed as a set of military outposts as an extension of the French colony in Senegal" - link to the appropriate Senegal article. Cite too please.
  • Linked and cited. – Quadell ^(talk) 20:37, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

• "...governor of Senegalit formally..." Is this a typo?
  • The word "Senegalit" is sometimes used in other languages to refer to the territory, I think. Removed. – Quadell ^(talk) 18:33, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

• "...executed without civilian control..." What does this mean?
  • Reworded. – Quadell ^(talk) 20:37, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

• "In the "Administration and jurisdiction" section, could you put the French names for each of the names?
  • I'm not entirely sure which names you mean. I put French versions for the main colony names, but I didn't think it appropriate to include French versions of the names of modern countries. – Quadell ^(talk) 12:43, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• The French colonies named in the same section - could you wiki link to the article about the colony (assuming they exist) rather than the modern country?
  • Yes. There is unfortunately no article on Côte d'Ivoire under French administration, so I guess Ivory Coast is the best link for that one. But I changed Dahomey to French Dahomey. The others are, I think, already correct. – Quadell ^(talk) 12:43, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• Link to Burkina Faso please.
  • Done. – Quadell ^(talk) 18:41, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

• "At that point, a reorganization of the colony split 11 southern provinces to other French colonies like French Guinea, the Côte d'Ivoire and Dahomey." - cite please.
  • Done. – Quadell ^(talk) 12:43, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• "At that point, the colony of the French Upper Volta (modern Burkina Faso) dissolved, and the northern territory was added to French Sudan." - cite.
  • Done. – Quadell ^(talk) 12:43, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• "The colony supported mostly rain-fed agriculture, with limited irrigation for its first 30 years." cite please.
  • That's also covered by Becker, p. 375, which is cited at the next sentence. – Quadell ^(talk) 13:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• Link to Egyptian cotton (Gossypium barbadense).
  • Done. – Quadell ^(talk) 18:41, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

• "Starting in 1921, significant irrigation projects around Koulikoro and later at Baguinéda-Camp and the Ségou Cercle began to bring water." cite please.
  • Done. – Quadell ^(talk) 13:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• Links to Kingdom of Egypt and the United States in the same section.
  • Done. – Quadell ^(talk) 21:09, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

• "The Office du Niger was founded in 1926 as the main organization facilitating planned, irrigated agricultural projects." Italics on "Office du Niger" and cite on this sentence and the following one.
  • I italicized, and added a source to the first sentence. The next one is covered by Becker p. 383-385, which is referenced at the next sentence. – Quadell ^(talk) 13:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• "Arabic language and Islamic law" - links to each (and Islam and Christianity!) please.
  • Done, and Traditional African religion as well. – Quadell ^(talk) 13:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• Personal hatred of mine - please change "impacted" to "affected"! (Non-obligatory, of course)
  • I agree! Done. – Quadell ^(talk) 13:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• link to Tuareg (Tuareg people) please.
  • Done. – Quadell ^(talk) 13:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• Link to Madagascar (in this case, the Malagasy Republic)
  • Done. – Quadell ^(talk) 13:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• Italics on République Soudainaise
  • Done. – Quadell ^(talk) 13:42, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

References

• There's an error on one of the bibliography entries.
  • Fixed. – Quadell ^(talk) 18:41, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

General

• Overlinking to Niger river, Dahomey and possibly others - once in lead/body only please!
  • Thanks, all overlinking is now fixed. – Quadell ^(talk) 13:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• I know its a colony, but if you could find any other language variations for "French Sudan" in any relevant local languages, that'd be good!
  • Thank you for adding Arabic! The most significant relevant indigenous language would be Bambara. I tried in vain to find out how to say "French Sudan" in Bambara. [1], [2], [3], etc. Ah well. – Quadell ^(talk) 13:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Sources for article expansion

The article as it exists now clearly shouldn't've passed GA. It claims to represent a continuous French territory while admitting such an entity didn't exist: it didn't just have different names; it also had different administrations, borders, &c. It's possible that the material could be reworked into a treatment of a generic "Upper Senegal" area but better to just divide the content among the actual entities that actually existed, instead of making it look like the 1920s French Soudan was anything like the 1890 version. This page should deal with the precursor to the modern state of Mali; the early administration of central French West Africa should have a separate page or be treated in a similar fashion with the French article.

Sources for expansion of period treatment include

• "Upper Senegal and Niger" in the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica
• Slavery and Colonial Rule in French West Africa, for more on the wink-wink-nudge-nudge continuation of slavery under other names and the involvement and importance of the French administrators' local lovers in the practice

 — LlywelynII 03:14, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not sure I understand this objection. There was a continuous French territorial administration over an area that is approximate to the current country of Mali. This page is about the French colony which became Mali, whether the borders changed or they changed the name or governor. Just because New Spain changed borders and had different administrations doesn't mean we should break up that page into each different administration, does it? There was a French administrative category from the 1880s until 1960 which went by many names. Breaking it into a separate, small article for each name change seems to only serve the interests of stamp collectors--but not general readership. (Of course, those other pages were maintained for stamp collectors, but with a good foundational article to put the administrative names that only lasted a few months into a more general context.) But most importantly, RSs (including the Klein book you link to and which is already used extensively in the article), often refer to the 'space which had various colonial names' which mostly became Mali as "French Sudan/Soudan". For the clearest and simplest example of an RS which treat "French Sudan" as a continuous entity from 1880 until 1960, see The Historical Dictionary of Mali.AbstractIllusions (talk) 04:55, 13 April 2014 (UTC)