Talk:French Algeria/Archive 1

Archive 1

Initial Settling of French Algeria

There doesn't seem to be very much on the page about the initial settling of Algeria by the French (the French policies and passports issued and political discussion). I'm not sure where to add it, but it impacts the demographics, history, and government and administration. What do you all think? Feel free to move the section as I add it! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paige999 (talk • contribs) 10:12, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the non-military aspects (of this era in particular) could use more information and citations, especially given how important settlement and agriculture is to understanding the history of this region. Looks like a good start to me! Behemothing (talk) 13:34, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I expanded upon the section and looked more at "The land and colonisers" section and think that that section is a little unclear on the specific time periods that it discusses since it deals with the policies in the 1840s then much later on, perhaps this could be sorted according to the era it is discussing since the rest of the "administration" section is organized by time period and the policies shifted between different French governments.--Paige999 (talk) 12:07, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Post-colonial relations

I've removed this sentence: It also jeopardized the Franco-Algerian Peace Treaty, which Algerian President Abdelaziz Bouteflika refused to sign following the vote of this law.

Reason: It wasn't sourced, and as it is written, it doesn't make sense. The Evian Accords were signed fifty years ago - why would Bouteflika need to sign them. 24.131.255.12 (talk) 17:30, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect map

The second map is incorrect. Spain had never formed part of the French empire. It was ruled by Joseph Bonaparte and partially occupied by the soldiers of Napoleon, but only Catalonia was formally annexed to the Empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.26.42.106 (talk) 18:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

CIA Country Study

This entire article (France in Algeria, 1830-1962)is taken word for word from the CIA Country Study of Algeria!! No, the Country Study is not copyrighted information, but can Wikipedia simply "reproduce" someone else's intellectual work, verbatim, and under a different author's name? (That's a rhetorical question. The technical answer is YES - but the ethical answer is NO.) It's not sufficient to credit the Country Study of Algeria merely as a reference ("original text") if this Wikipedia article is indeed a word-for-word complete reprint. Anyone who's interested can compare the Wikipedia text with the Country Study text, from the Library of Congress website: http://rs6.loc.gov/frd/cs/dztoc.html At least the Library of Congress site clearly indicates the last update for the Country Study content - it hasn't been updated since 1993! At the very least, you should very clearly reference the fact that this entire article is a complete repackaging of someone else's uncopyrighted work from 1993, which is indeed already fully available to anyone on the web.

I agree, it's great information, but it doesn't have the same feel as a picked-apart, start-from-zero wikipedia entry. I say delete everything but the intro. Rhetth 18:47, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm an Algerian, nd regardless the relation that France/Algeria had before, I AGREE with Rhetth, the prove that the work of CIA is way far better than a work of any admin here :), nd if u keep a close eye, u'll find an update, in 2006 for the congress study.--لطيفة العمورية (talk) 23:18, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Somewhat biased?

"It was an inauspicious beginning to France's self-described "civilizing mission," whose character on the whole was cynical, arrogant, and cruel."

god bless the cia and its civilizing mission in cuba. Cliché Online (talk) 08:45, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

What does Cuba have to do with anything? And how could you possibly compare the two situations? HazelGHC (talk) 14:22, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Moved from Algeria

Moved from Algeria, this seems to belong somewhere in this article: - Mustafaa 08:34, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The colonial society of Algeria can be portrayed as a class-society, with extremely strong inequalities, but with the interesting feature that classes were not defined only by wealth or ownership of capital, but were above all defined by religion and ethnicity. At the top, wealthy colonists of French descent, then below were middle-class or poor pieds-noirs of French descent, then rich pieds-noirs of non-French descent (including Jews), then middle-class or poor pieds-noirs of non-French descent (including Jews), then still below were rich Muslim Algerians, and at the bottom were poor Muslim Algerians (until the 1950's there were very few middle-class Muslim Algerians). Intermarriages were unthinkable between these groups (although they were legal), even between the pieds-noirs of French descent and the pieds-noirs of non-French descent. However, the colonial society of Algeria cannot be compared with the segregationist society of the United States at the time, or the apartheid society of South Africa, in the sense that people were allowed to mix with each other, and to live side by side, and to go to the same shops, or cafes, or theaters, or even schools after the 1930's. But inequality of wealth and traditional mentalities kept the society extremely rigid. Although they were neighbors (as there was no segregation), and often in good terms with each other, Christians, Jews, and Muslims would not have thought it proper to be close friends. Poor Arabs and Kabyles were not forbidden to climb the social ladder, and there are many examples of Muslim Algerian who became doctors, lawyers, etc., but lack of money and contacts, as well as a general unwillingness of the European elite to facilitate their promotion or to grant them voting rights, meant it was very hard for the vast majority of Arabs and Kabyles to climb the social ladder.

Introduction

This article needs a proper introduction. It plunges right into France's motives without simply informing the reader, first, what went on from 1830 to 1962 in Algeria.

Feel free to edit one Wikipedia:Be Bold... Lapaz 09:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Napoleon's 1808 contingency plan for the invasion of Algeria?

The article mentions this without any explanation. Why did Napoleon plan to invade Algeria? Why did it not happen then? What made it a "contigency plan?" Funnyhat 04:57, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

It might be a good question

Algeria was not yet existing in 1808, was it?

There was a cease-fire/peace treaty in 1800/1801 fr:Traité_de_paix_franco-algérien

At that time, the European continent was French as part of the fr:Premier Empire/First French Empire until 1815.

Also Britain was an enemy of France at that time (Golden Cavalry of St George)

Of course, reliable source would be better to answer such a question.

Also, France did not declare war against the régence d'Alger, but the régence d'Alger declared war to France, according to the "Journal de l'Empire" (section Italie). https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k4186516/f1.item — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.136.214.38 (talk) 17:14, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Also there was yet issues in 1806. https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1254610q/f69.item

One rational was "piraterie barbaresque" according to the wording of that time. https://www.historia.fr/vincent-boutin-en-mission-secr%C3%A8te-en-alg%C3%A9rie

Other rational are explained here after: fr:Vincent-Yves_Boutin#Mission_à_la_régence_d'Alger

The report is also interesting by the conclusive sentence that France should « respecte (...) scrupuleusement les moeurs et usages du pays ».Preceding unsigned comment added by Contributions/ (talk) 17:14, 9 May 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.136.214.38 (talk)

Who painted the scene with Duperre?

Could the uploader, or someone else, identify the author of the painting concerning Duperre? (in the same occasion, both on Commons and on this page)? Thanks, Tazmaniacs

C20th

This article needs new sections on French rule in the 20th century.

• Before World War II
• World War II, which regime controlled Algeria when. Did government pass to a hostile army (Was it occupied by the Axis or Allied forces)?
• Post WWII, Before during and after the War of Independence.

--Philip Baird Shearer 12:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the subsection "Post-colonial relations" really should be included in this article, which focuses more on actual history than on remembrance issues. Maybe it could be merged to Foreign relations of France, where it would make a nice subsection? Tazmaniacs 15:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

"Austrian-Hungarian Empire"

I have changed a reference to this state to Austrian Empire, becuase A) It did not exist at the time of the reference and B) that term is incorrect, the future state being the "AustRO-Hungarian" empire. Just noting this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.41.241.163 (talk) 18:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

apartheid...

come on who wrote that bs? there was no arpatheid with white only buses like in the US or such things. FYI schools were mixed native-colon, etc. there were so called "villages nègres" in the city outskirts but some european lived there too. so this section is lies and propaganda. Cliché Online (talk) 08:43, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

The word apartheid might be misleading and not neutral. For instance, in apartheid there is a legal Prohibition of Mixed Marriages.

It would be clearer to provide the list of existing status, where they come from and how to change from one to the other.

Also the word discrimination is anachronistic and does not reflect the various existing status, and why it existed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.136.214.38 (talk) 16:24, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

lacks algeria and wwII

vichy rules and us invasion, then how algiers became the free france capital by becoming a military base for de gaulle. Cliché Online (talk) 15:45, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Chantiers de la jeunesse française

this overlooked article should be translated from the french wiki. Cliché Online (talk) 14:13, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Merge Algérie française to French Algeria?

I agree with the proposal. --Mistakefinder (talk) 10:26, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I also agree if the colony was ever actually officially named Algerie francaise. If the colony was named Algerie and is only referenced now as Algerie francaise to distinguish it from the modern state and Algerie francaise was a historical slogan, the pages should remain where they are. See below. — LlywelynII 10:58, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

infobox: FAKE coat of arms

real and sourced coat of arms used in august 1865

the coat of arms of (French) Algeria 1830-1962 was the coat of arms of France, the ruler of Algeria was the ruler of France. the unsourced "INFAMOUS" arab-style green with yellow crescent coat of arms is actually a fictitious one. i've replaced the arab-style fake coat of arms with the actual french algeria coat of arms used in 1865 (2nd french empire). Madame Grinderche (talk) 01:42, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

French name: Alger, then Algerie (may fransay)

The colony began as Alger and other cities and was officially renamed to Algerie in 1839. Was it ever officially known as Algerie francaise during its existence? It seems like a term of modern scholarship since prior to independence there was no other Algerie around to warrant the distinction.

If it's only a term of French scholarship, it has no real place on the English wiki article, where we should be limiting ourselves to the English usage, with notes of actual historical/official names. — LlywelynII 10:58, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Historic dates

I came here after noticing in the infobox of Rainilaiarivony that he died in "Algiers, Algeria" in 1896. However, since Algeria was considered an integral part of the Third Republic, shouldn't this read "Algiers, France (now Algeria)", or "Algiers, Algeria, France (now Algeria)"? I come here to ask because, if this is the case, a lot of mentions might need to be revised. If Hawaii were to become independent of the US tomorrow, I would expect a source for something happening yesterday to say "Honolulu, Hawaii, United States (now Hawaii)", or, "Honolulu, United States (now Hawaii)". From what I can tell, Algeria's status was identical. --Golbez (talk) 21:41, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Missing part

The section administration abruptly stops at the revolt in 1871 and then skips 70 years to the second world war. That ain't right 31.151.99.220 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:22, 6 April 2012 (UTC).

Algeria / Corsica ?

• cite: ...was administered as an integral part of France, much like Corsica and Réunion are to this day. - Why mix Algeria with Corsica and Réunion in one ? How to understand ? As far as I know, Corsica is regular part of french motherland (common département), - Réunion a overseas territory and so something different, but former french Algeria was propagated as being french motherland, but de facto colony. - What should it mean to mix especially Corsica in there ? - Thanks, --Oenie (talk) 21:08, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Lybian border

Is there any reliable source about a rectification of borders with Lybia in 1919? Thanks --El extranjero (talk) 14:38, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

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What is French Algeria

From an outside prospective (no knowledge of what this page is talking about), the first paragraph doesn't explain what French Algeria is or was. Is it a nation, a war, an occupation? The second sentence suggests that it was an occupation but it's never stated directly. I would think the first sentence would be the definition of what French Algeria was, not when it was. 72.48.42.70 (talk) 11:12, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Might be it is easier and more neutral to say when it was rather than what it was? The date says what it is talking about: a location and a period of time. How it was is (or should be) written in the full article. (how is it done on fr:Algérie_française)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.136.214.38 (talk) 16:03, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

= Bias

Arabic version of name in lead section and infobox

As an Arabic speaker, I couldn't help but notice that the Arabic name listed in the lead section (الجزائر المستعمرة Al-Jazā'ir al-Musta`marah) translates to "Colonial Algeria" (or "Colonized Algeria" or "Algeria the Colony", depending on how you interpret it) rather than "French Algeria." I find this odd, since while it is definitely true that Algeria was a colony during this period, the done thing is to use the word "Colony" in the name of a geopolitical entity in its infobox and lead section only when that is part of its official name (e.g. Colony of Aden). Otherwise, the tendency is to use official or at least common names from the period, which for colonies in the 19th and 20th centuries usually meant <Imperial power adjective> <Colonized territory name> (e.g. Italian Libya, German East Africa, Japanese Taiwan). Also, it's needlessly confusing and inconsistent to use Algérie française ("French Algeria") for the French name, and then الجزائر المستعمرة Al-Jazā'ir al-Musta`marah ("Colonial Algeria") for the Arabic. Thus الجزائر الفرنسية Al-Jazā'ir al-Faransiyyah) would be better given the article we have. (For the record, Arabic Wikipedia calls the article and the entity الجزائر (المستعمرة الفرنسية) (Al-Jazā'ir (al-musta`marah al-Faransiyyah)), which roughly translates to Algeria (French colony).) Lockesdonkey (talk) 18:12, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Why would it translate to "French Algeria" (which is nothing more than a slogan that was used by the French settlers in Algeria and their supporters to affirm their belief that Algeria was French)? Would anyone honestly believe that the natives (the Algerians) used or would such an emotion-laden, pro-colonization slogan? Of course not. A simple search on Google Books would tell you that they only referred to it as 'الجزائر' (Algeria) and that nowadays, they use a variety of expressions to refer to that period: الاستعمار الفرنسي في الجزائر, الاستعمار الفرنسي, فترة الاحتلال, فترة الاستعمار الفرنسي, الجزائر المستعمرة, just to name a few. M.Bitton (talk) 23:45, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

This is true and I sympathize. But in that case, the term in the lead and infobox would simply be "الجزائر Al-Jazā'ir"--no different from today's independent Algeria. That's a defensible position in general, but in the context of the article it runs into the issue of confusion, since the terminology used on the page is "French Algeria" in English (which is also the WP:COMMONNAME in English) and Algérie française in French. The inconsistency between English and French on one hand and Arabic on the other would have to be explained. Perhaps a way to thread the needle would have the lead section and infobox use the "الجزائر الفرنسية (Al-Jazā'ir al-Faransiyyah) locution, with a section on the various names in a section at the beginning (i.e. after the lead but before the History section) explaining that Algerians at the time consistently refused to use the "French Algeria" terminology and only ever called their country "Algeria", so "French Algeria" at most would be seen in translations of French documents. The infobox might even include a note to refer readers to the relevant section. (I am not suggesting this is an ideal solution; it is late where I live and I am tired.)

I should note that this is a common issue for other colonies--no doubt the inhabitants of Taiwan did not call their country "Japanese Taiwan" during that period--but the issue for Wikipedia is consistency within the article. A normal reader would expect that foreign-language terms in parentheses in the lead section after the initial statement of the topic should be direct translations of the bold term in English, and if they are not it would be noted. As it stands, the Arabic term is not a direct translation of the English, and the difference is not noted. This is possibly confusing and is definitely misleading. Again, I do not doubt that the Arabic terminology at the time would not have reflected French usage, but we need to be clear with what the terminology is for people who do not understand the linguistic issue. Lockesdonkey (talk) 05:23, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

In the light of morning, I think I have an idea. Rather than the parenthetical after the bold main topic, we could rephrase the first line along these lines:

French Algeria or Colonial Algeria was the colonial rule of France over Algeria.

And then have a "Naming" section that would list the French and Arabic terminology at the time along these lines:

While commonly called "French Algeria" in English today, the French-language equivalent Algérie française was only ever an unofficial term. Officially, the French government only ever referred to the region as Alger ("Algiers") from 1830 to 1839, and as Algérie ("Algeria") from 1839 onwards. Meanwhile, Arabic writers at the time also generally referred to the region simply as "الجزائر Al-Jazā'ir" ("Algiers" or "Algeria", there being no distinction in Arabic). The term "الجزائر الفرنسية" ("Al-Jazā'ir al-Faransiyyah", literally "French Algeria") would have been used, if at all, only in translations of French works.

The "Naming" section could also discuss the alternate Arabic terms in a second paragraph. As for the infobox, since the official French name was only ever Alger or Algérie, we could simply have the infobox use the names "Algeria/Algérie/الجزائر", perhaps with a footnote directing readers to the name section. The same footnote could be attached to the first line of the lead, as well. Lockesdonkey (talk) 14:15, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't see any particular issue with the guideline compliant, proposed changes to the Infobox. Per MOS:FORLANG, the first line of the lead is easily dealt with by translating the official name French: Algérie (whose Arabic equivalent Arabic: الجزائر happens to be the native name). The naming section, already present in the article (buried at the bottom of the page), could be renamed and expanded with relevant and properly sourced content. M.Bitton (talk) 00:21, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

"Resistance of Lalla Fadhma N'Soumer" section

The "Resistance of Lalla Fadhma N'Soumer" section is very badly and choppily written, and lacks sources. For example, we don't know what "Soumer" is. And, why doesn't the section START with Fadhma, the putative subject of the section? I suggest a rewrite, using the French wikipedia article on "Lalla Fadhma N'Soumer" as a start. (I don't have time right now to do this myself, but will attempt it if and when I can.) Acwilson9 (talk) 19:46, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

False and inflammatory edits on this page

Andulu Agency from Turkey and some unkown sources have made this page heresay rather than acedemic. i.e. 10 million algerians were killed, is 20 times more deadly than the Syrian civil war, for the entire duration of the 130 years rule. 10 million is a completely false figure with no real source stated anywhere from Andulu news agency. The french version of this page by native Algerians and French is more precise and academic, quoting demographic studies and academic studies of the casualties which are no where near 1 million or half of that generally. Also note that atrocities are only listed for French against Algerians, but the Algerian Liberation Front bombed, slit throats, cut testicles off, mutilated children, poured boiling water, and other abominations which receive no coverage, this is biased and are a bit puerile academically, more characteristic of a news propaganda system. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lifeinthetrees (talk • contribs) 19:41, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

I removed the 10 million claim since the source is not reliable. As for your attempt at creating a false balance, the unreliable source and the fact that you injected OR in the middle of a sourced quote aside, you'll find that no self-respecting historian would dare to compare what the FLN did (to defend their land and basic human rights) during the Algerian war to the atrocities committed by the French during the same period, let alone to the genocidal massacres and other unspeakable atrocities that were committed by the French during the 130 years. M.Bitton (talk) 00:58, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Turkish government propaganda additions in response to French recognition of Armenian Genocide

The Turkish government seems to be adding lots of distorted information to this page, figures like 10 million deaths in Algeria, a figure 10 times higher than demographic pyramid and other fact-based studies have put forward. Also The introduction is very keen to mention atrocities and the use of chemical weapons on civilians... Combattants in a cave were expelled with smoke after failed negotiations by Pelissier, and allegations of tear-gas used in other caves have surfaced, facts which are poorly represented in the English version of the article. Atrocities were committed by both sides, and the ramparts of Algiers had spikes to impale people in public, the moral standards of the war were often medieval.

Very few Algerian historians speak English, and the French version of this page is much more in depth and methodical, and reads more like an encyclopedia article, whereas the English speaking page seems to have be written with more inflammatory intent and less factual basis, more like a news site. It also contains quotes from Andulu Agency with is owned buy Turkey's government. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lifeinthetrees (talk • contribs) 08:29, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 3 January 2021

Change "Turkey accused [ France of having committed genocide against 15% of Algeria's population." To "Turkey accused France of having committed genocide against 15% of Algeria's population." Werner Zagrebbi (talk) 20:34, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

 Done — xaosflux ^Talk 17:29, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

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