Talk:Freddie Brown (cricketer)

Controversy

"He was viewed as an "establishment" figure in view of his amateur status and connections at MCC, particularly his association with Gubby Allen. As England captain in 1950–51, he was liked by Australians but he was controversial and many leading English professionals despised him. He has been described by them as "stuck-up" (i.e. a snob) and as a rude, ignorant bigot with one leading player alleging drunkenness."

Only two players - Fred Trueman and Tom Graveney - have been cited as disliking Brown, which is hardly many even out of a 19 man touring team. Also Trueman was an outspoken figure who did not like many people, but then he did receive some poor treatment from the establishment. When Brown returned to the Test arena at Lords in 1953 he was still called Skip (skipper or captain) by the players even though Len Hutton was still in charge, which hardly sounds like they hated him. I am unaware of the controversy you mention, what incident were you thinking of? Philip Jelley (talk) 21:47, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

When I first started listening to TMS in the early 1960s, the two main expert summarisers were Brown and Nornam Yardley. Whilst Yardley made a very favourable impression on me, always seeming sympathetic towards the players and appreciating the problems that they faced, Brown came across as very negative and ill-tempered, and often sounded as though he'd had a few drinks too many. That's only my subjective impression of course, but it makes the criticisms that Trueman and Graveney voiced about him sound plausible. (It's rather ironic that, twenty or thirty years later, in Trueman's TMS appearances he had almost turned into a clone of Brown.) JH (talk page) 08:20, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I am expanding this article and have found Brown had a mutual antipathy with Trevor Bailey according to Keith Miller, but no other mentions apart from Trueman and Graveney, whose complaints I have placed in 'Australia 1958-59'. Regards Brian Close in 1950-51 E.W. Swanton said his duck on debut was the result of the worst stroke he made seen from a first class batsman and his youth was no excuse, so no wonder Brown was angry and dropped him. Philip Jelley (talk) 16:05, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Trueman famously got along well with the vast majority of people he met in cricket. The main exceptions were Brown, Allen, a character called Michael Ainsworth, and to some extent Len Hutton. Trueman had excellent relationships with Billy Sutcliffe, Ronnie Burnet, May, Robins, Bailey, Cowdrey, Dexter and a host of other amateurs. By all means expand the Brown article but do try to maintain balance without setting out to prove that Brown was "a jolly good chap" when clearly he was nothing of the sort. If he was, why did Bailey (one of the more down-to-earth and straight-talking amateurs) fall out with him and why did May, who was definitely pro-establishment, reprimand him? Please read WP:PEACOCK, WP:WEASEL and similar guidelines before going off on the "jolly good chap" route and reduce the number of pro-Brown quotes you are using, especially beginning sections with them: you are not writing a newspaper article. Finally, you have written above that "Only two players - Fred Trueman and Tom Graveney - have been cited as disliking Brown, which is hardly many even out of a 19 man touring team." Read Graveney's comments again: he confirmed that Brown was rude to several members of the team, not just himself and Trueman. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 18:03, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Trueman was also famously seen as a disciplinary problem by the establishment, the account of his argument with the unsympathetic Brown is in his favour and states that Brown could be bombastic, rude and combative. However, most sources call him jovial or big-hearted so clearly he was something of the sort, even is was not not jolly to everybody all the time, it is noted that he lost his temper with sensationalist journalists. Also May did not reprimand Brown as Brown was the tour manager and May's boss on the 1958-59 tour, but he probably smoothed things down. I have added the quotations as you were disinclined to believe that he was well-liked in Australia or by professional cricketers. You wrote "many leading English professionals despised him" but have named only two and that is not many. I have named two that did like him - Ted Dexter and Alec Bedser - and several quotations to saying that other professional cricketers liked him, so don't go down the everybody hated him route, the truth is some liked him and some did not, as stated by the article. I only know that Keith Miller wrote that Brown and Bailey argued with each other, he did not cite a reason. Anyway, you used WP:WEASEL by changing "he was well liked in Australia" to "he seems to have been well liked in Australia", which I reversed.Philip Jelley (talk) 19:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Ted Dexter was an amateur. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 19:25, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I never said he wasn't, but he was a member of the 1958-59 team. Brown and Trueman disliked each other, which is reflected in the article, but it is not the be all and end all of Brown's character. Looking through the sources; Fingleton, Kay, O'Reilly, Morris, Dexter, Synge and Swanton all praise Brown and only Waters (who I have not read) and Trueman are against him. It would therefore bit a bit harsh to discard the majority view.Philip Jelley (talk) 19:38, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

To quote Swanton exactly on the 1950-51 tour "'Fergie' the Australian baggage-master to every MCC and Australia side since 1905 said this was the 'easiest' and most contented side with which he had travelled" (p. 80) and Kay wrote "acts of kindliness helped Brown to create a feeling of team spirit that was never relaxed, and never once did I see a sign of trouble in the camp" (p. 32). I believe Trueman regards Brown's attitude to him, but this does not stop Brown being well-liked by other players, which would be as unjust as saying Trueman was always in trouble with management because he argued with Brown. Philip Jelley (talk) 20:05, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Brown famously got along well with the vast majority of people he met in cricket. The only exceptions we have found so far are Trueman, Graveney and Bailey. Brown was very popular with the Australian public and had an excellent relationship with his team in 1950-51, with the exception being an unsourced complaint on the Brian Close page. I have re-read the article, it is fair and reasonable and clearly states that he was disliked the three players above, but was liked by far more people. Do try to maintain balance without setting out to prove that Brown was villain when clearly he was nothing of the sort. Philip Jelley (talk) 21:07, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Reading what Alan Gibson has to say about Brown in "The Cricket Captains of England", it seems that his captaincy of the 1950-1 side was generally admired but that his management of the 1958-9 side was less happy. By that time he was eight years older, of course, and may have become more set in his views. Also the players would mostly no longer have been his contemporaries but a younger generation with whom he had less in common. If three members of that touring party publicly criticised him, that seems to me to be a substantial number. Players would naturally be very reluctant to criticise the manager while they were still playing, as that might well have ended their England career, so any criticism would have to wait till after they had retired. (Look what happened to Johnny Wardle and Jim Laker at around this time when they criticised Ronnie Burnett and Peter May respectively.) JH (talk page) 09:06, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Brown was a 1930s cricketer so was always a generation removed from post-war cricket, two generations by 1958. I think the difference was that in 1950-51 no one expected England to do anything so any success was lauded. In 1958-59 England were expected to win so their 4-0 drubbing, long list of injuries and adverse press interest did not make for a happy tour. I can also see how a manager like Brown bossing people around would ruffle more than a few feathers, but in 1950-51 he let his team socialize a lot and did not insist on net-practice, which would have made him popular. I think May was more disciplined in this area. Philip Jelley (talk) 20:17, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Journalism Portal

Why does this page have a Journalism Portal? Brown probably wrote for a newspaper at some point, but it is not mentioned and was not his main employment or claim to fame. Philip Jelley (talk) 20:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Tags added

As currently written, the article breaches WP guidelines per the tags inserted. The main editor is seeking to make a WP:POINT about someone he admires and is trying to drown objective criticisms of the subject in a deluge of quotations and subjective views including the use of peacock terms like "big-hearted", "jovial", "gutsy" and the laughable phrase "the large, happy-go-lucky leg-spinner". The style is completely at odds with WP:MOS. It is not objective and the article is effectively a hagiography which grudgingly admits that some people who had personal and professional contact with the subject do not agree with the views expressed by the editor. Inline citations are a mess because the main editor does not comply with the standard approach (e.g., "Waters, p.150." is standard; "p219, Trueman" is not). The article needs a complete copyedit, potentially a rewrite, to enable it to comply with site guidelines. Ideally, it should be rewritten by someone who will take an objective approach. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 06:47, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Re the "deluge of quotations" I mentioned, read WP:QUOTEFARM and WP:LONGQUOTE. The blockquotes used to introduce sections should especially be removed with any pertinent points they express suitably merged into the narrative. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 07:33, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree that this article has issues as BlackJack is trying to hijack it. This is supposed to be an article on Freddie Brown, but he is biased due to Brown's antipathy towards Fred Trueman and there is more to Brown that whether Trueman liked him or not. Brown was mot perfect by any means, but he was well-liked, especially in Australia, and BlackJack and refuses to accept the evidence to contrary to his POV. His excessively long list of issues expresses his own lack of objectivity on this subject. Philip Jelley (talk) 07:46, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

This is the second time you have made a WP:PA against me. If it happens again, I will go to ANI. I am not trying to hijack the article as I have not edited it recently apart from adding the tags after I reviewed it this morning. I first came to the article when it was little more than a stub. I had seen the points made by Trueman and Waters and decided to add those to the article under a personality section. While I was there, I copyedited the existing content which did not comply with MOS, especially the overuse of quotations. Since then, you have made a substantial expansion and this morning I decided to read and review it, adding the tags and the views on this page to summarise my findings. I am completely at liberty to do that and I have not criticised you personally as everything I have said is about either the subject or the article.

You are quite correct to balance Trueman's and Graveney's views with those of Fingleton and others but if you study the tags I have added you will see I am pointing out deficiencies in the article which is, frankly, very poor especially the undue weight given to the "jolly good chap" argument. You need to narrate Brown's career objectively and leave out all the "jovial, happy-go-lucky" stuff. I would then advise you to restore the personality section (perhaps under a different title) and discuss the differing views about Brown's character there. The whole thing needs a thorough copyedit too to comply with MOS in its finer details.

Re your "hijack" comment, I would suggest you read WP:OWN as I am entitled to edit the article providing I do so objectively using correctly formatted and verifiable inline citations and comply with MOS. If you read the former personality section I created using material I found in the books by Trueman and Waters, I think you will have to agree that this is what I did. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 08:08, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Quotes

Here are a couple of quotes from Waters confirming points that you have effectively removed: "(Brown) gave Brian Close such a torrid time (1950–51 tour) that the teenager admitted contemplating suicide" (p.148); "Trueman complained to May about Brown's behaviour (as a result of which) May ordered Brown to give Trueman a wide berth and told him to act in a manner more befitting someone with managerial responsibility" (p.149). Would you like to include these quotes and restate the context? Your sentence about May "smoothing things over" is misleading and you have dismissed Close's serious problem with Brown by inserting a disparaging comment by Swanton about one poor shot. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 08:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

You never mentioned that he contemplated suicide, and I did not remove it. Are the words in brackets yours, in which case do you have the full quotation? Did he contemplate suicide solely because of Brown, or did the adverse press comments on him making a pair also have an effect? Did Close told anyone he was contemplating suicide at the time, if not when did it come out? The comments on Close made me look up what my sources said, to quote Swanton (pp.75-76) in full; "His third ball, of good length around off-stump or outside, he crudely smeared at, and the ball lobbed gently to backward short-leg about fifteen yards from the wicket. Jack Fingleton called it 'an awful stroke', and all in all I never saw a worse played in a Test by a reputable batsman at such a moment. It was not easy at the time to accept Brian's youth as an excuse". Philip Jelley (talk) 20:49, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

If you didn't remove it, who did? It's like you not saying Dexter was a professional. There's no point in continuing the discussion, especially given the latest childish outburst in the article edit summaries. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 03:09, 22 May 2013 (UTC)