Talk:Francisco de Vitoria

Relectiones

It is unclear to me the extent to which Relectiones XII Theologicae is distinct from the "notes of his lectures" referred to in the article. It was published over a century after his death; it clearly includes "De Indis" and "De Ivre Belli" (== "De Jure Belli", the distinction is only typographical for Latin), both listed among the lecture notes published in the 1530s. - Jmabel | Talk 05:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Vitoria's position on imperialism

I am a bit puzzled with the statement that Vitoria was used to justify Spanish imperialism. In _Relatos y Relaciones de Hispanoamérica colonial_ Otto Olivera says, “Vitoria, basándose principalmente en la Summa theologica de Santo Tomás, desde su cátedra en la Universidad de Salamanca, destruye todos los argumentos que intentaron justificar la conquista, esgrimiendo los principios de libertad, la guerra justa y el derecho de gentes. Sus discípulos habían de extender por América, España y Europa su prédica, de modo que por ella se le considera el iniciador del derecho internacional moderno.” So, if I take Olivera seriously (who is an authority on the subject), Vitoria did not serve to justify, but on the other hand, to criticize Spanish imperialism in the Americas. (Citation comes from the first page of the introduction, “I”). Dennishidalgo|Talk January 21, 2007

• For those who don't read Spanish, the quoted passage says, "Vitoria, basing principally on the Summa theologica of Saint Thomas, from his chair at the University of Salamanca, destroyed all the arguments that intended to justify the conquest, wielding the principals of liberty, the just war, and the right/law of peoples. His disciples had extended through America, Spain and Europe and preached, in a manner such that by this one may consider him the initiator of modern international human rights." - Jmabel | Talk 05:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The article could probably do with being more nuanced than it is. De Indis includes a long section on "unjust titles" which have falsely been claimed to give the Spanish a right to empire, but this is immediately followed by a section on "just titles." Vitoria then provides a number of circumstances in which Spanish empire would be justified. De Indis can be read, then, as a primarily a criticism of current Spanish practice in the New World, or as primarily a justification of the principle of Spanish conquest; the correct interpretation is a matter of scholarly debate. Anthony Pagden's Lords of All the World deals with this question in some detail, if I remember rightly. VoluntarySlave 19:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I am going to throw my 2 cents in here as well, the article as it stands now gives the impression that Victoria supported the Spanish conquest, when in fact he opposed it on all points (with the slight exception of one, the Aztecs - because of kidnapping and human sacrifice) - those points are stated well in the associated article. This section of the article may need to be updated to reflect that a touch better. Opinions? Charon9 (talk) 15:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

This issue goes beyond imperialism and when and when not to intervene in the lives of various peoples, but also concerns slavery. To the extent that Vitoria exemplifies principled opposition to slavery, analysis of his thinking could illuminate how enslavement flourished in the face of substantial moral qualms extant in the minds of people in a position to restrain the practice. The article certainly should be updated to describe Vitoria's positions in more detail and perhaps to include the topic of slavery. Myron (talk) 12:02, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I think that I can add something to this discussion too. I do not believe that Vitoria supported colonialism - this is a matter of opinion, but it is true that he was very critical of the way that Spain had handled its encounters with the natives in the New World. Secondary sources are a good introduction, but I suggest reading the relectiones themselves. User VoluntarySlave is right in that Vitoria writes on 7 unjust titles of occupation claimed by Spain, and 7 just titles that could be claimed; throughout the text he repeats that Spain had not acted in such a manner to obtain a just title. However, the very last part of the relectio 'De Indis' says: Thirdly, it is evident, now that there are so many native converts, that it would be neither expedient nor lawful for our sovereign to wash his hands entirely of the administration of the lands in question." That is, regardless of how unjust the King of Spain's title in America were, the fact was that there were now Christian converts that could not, by law, be abandoned. The two relectiones dealing with this topic - De Indis and De Jure Belli - are available online at WikiSource: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/De_Indis_De_Jure_Belli. Anthony Pagden also has a translation of the two in book-format: ISBN 0-521-36714-X. User:Endroth 21:26 CMT, 11 February 2010 —Preceding undated comment added 03:27, 12 February 2010 (UTC).

Was he a priest?

Was de Vitoria a priest or was he a lay brother of the Dominican order? 194.107.82.193 (talk) 11:10, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

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Inconsistent

How can his mother both be a converso and from a noble family? I'm pretty sure at that point people were required to have clean Old Christian blood in order to be considered for a noble title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HBBorges (talk • contribs) 00:33, 18 May 2018 (UTC)