Talk:Franciscan University of Steubenville/Archive 1

Archive 1

NPOV problem, Cite references

The bulk of this article reads like a poorly written promotional brochure intended as an advertisement rather than an enyclopedic reference. In addition, references are not cited for any of the facts asserted in the main text of the article. I challenge those students, staff and alumni of Franciscan University who are contributing to this article to demonstrate an academic ability to properly document their work from reputable 3rd party sources. Please avoid original research and personal testimoniesDismasMama 08:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

All facts need to have cited references

The purpose of the {{Fact}} tag is not to make an allegation that the fact you have asserted is false, inaccurate or misleading. The purpose is to alert editors that no one knows where this particular fact came from. Please tell us with proper citations where we may look up the source ourselves and verify the facts asserted. It might help to review the policy on verifiable sources:

The policy:

1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources. 2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor.

3. The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.

Where did the information for the section on FUS's history? A book? An Article? The University's own self-published website? (This should NOT be the primary refernce for the bulk of the material in this article) Please give us the citation

This sentence has a big problem with no cited references:

Franciscan University has achieved national recognition from a variety of sources, including The Templeton Guide for Colleges That Encourage Character Development, National Review’s Guide to America’s Top Liberal Arts Schools, The Templeton Foundation’s Honor Rolls for Education in a Free Society, Barron’s Best Buys in College Education, and U.S. News & World Report’s list of America’s Best Colleges.

In order to verify these statements, the best SOURCES will not be the FUS website, but rather: The Templeton Guide for Colleges That Encourage Character Development-- include date of publication, page and authors National Review’s Guide to America’s Top Liberal Arts Schools-- include date of publication, page and authors The Templeton Foundation’s Honor Rolls for Education in a Free Society-- include date of publication, page and authors Barron’s Best Buys in College Education-- include date of publication, page and authors U.S. News & World Report’s list of America’s Best Colleges-- include date of publication, page and authors

Someone in the University's public relations department may have the information you need to complete the citations.

The "Household Life" section sounds like a personal testimony. Please avoid original research. Please present facts in a neutral point of view. And please give references that will allow others to independently verify every fact that has been asserted.

Newspaper Name: If someone would cite a real reference source showing the way that the newspaper's name was really chosen it might solve the edit wars on this sentence. Wasn't St. Francis called the "Troubador of the Great King"? Someone please look it up.

• "Troubador" finds its roots in both the French and the Arabic. It means singer, searcher/finder, and lover. It refers to a medieval poet who wrote or sang poems or such about love or a lover. It usually entailed either a forbidden love (as in another man's wife, a peasant in love with a noble, etc). Or it was in reference to a prearranged marriage. It was the name of a certain order of monks, under which Francis received his tutelage at a young age, but Francis himself was never once called "Troubador of the Great King" as you suggested. --Talhathier 17 December 2006.

Many of the people contributing to this article are college students or even college professors. I expect you to know how to present factual research relying primarily on reputable 3rd party resources and to know how to cite your references. It would be a poor reflection on your school if you failed to do so. Let's show the highest standards and the best quality work. I know you can do it! DismasMama 20:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

It is fine to list where things come from but keep the references up to date. The link on 19 is no longer there. This is referring to the fact that the smallest incoming freshman class occurred in the late 1970s as Scanlan searched for a way to make the college work again. Why is this important? I got here from a link on FaithCounts.com. That means for what ever reason, the Franciscan University of Steubenville has joined with Hillel, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and others as identifying the need to work across various religions on issues important to all of them. So have the Franciscan University of Steubenville create a historical section on their website that stays put. Whether they like it or not they have been thrust into the lime-light just exactly the same way that Calvin College has come to my attention. In Calvin College's case it is the positive contributions made by graduates working in the social sciences and to a lesser extent their dismissal of a professor who had controversial reinterpretations of the Old Testament (which in the Christian tradition is of course out of sync with the order used by Jews). hhhobbit (talk) 11:55, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

References

Weasel Words and Misleading Statements

I removed the following statements:

"None of this has been recognized or commented on by the Church's hierarchy"

It is a misleading commentary. The Catholic Church's hierarchy typically does not conduct such reviews of Catholic Universities. This statement is almost like saying: "Mr. Brown did not abuse his wife on Saturday." It implies that he usually does so on other days, but we don't actually have that information.

"It has received no recognition from the Previous Pope, John Paul II, despite having visited Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, only a half-hour away."

This, too, is misleading commentary. See above.

"However, some are concerned with the Households apparently cultish nature."

Though there are documented concerns out there in the published world, this statement has not cited references. Most imortantly, the weasel words "SOME ARE CONCERNED" and "APPARENTLY CULTISH NATURE" prevent this sentence from being a statement of fact and reduce it to mere gossip. Please state facts and cite references, but leave the rest to another website with a discussion forum.

I'm looking forward to seeing more well-documented factual edits.DismasMama 20:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Faith households, small groups of students whose members support, recreate, and pray with one another, break through the isolation that frequently permeates dorm life. Up to 600 students join households that foster Christian values through mutual encouragement and development of positive peer support.

-The article cited for this particular entry does not present a neutral point of view, as any full reading will clearly indicate. The author writes with agenda-driven presuppositions, lacking objectivity. The school advertises only the good aspects of campus life, to attract customers: students. It's an advertisement. Not an encyclopedia article written by an outside source; it is written by an inside, biased position. Further, the article says: "Many of the students here drink... They date, but remain fully clothed ... And as befits their age, sometimes they feel torn between the secular and the spiritual." Fully clothed? The writer said nothing about chastity, just that couples may pray together often. Simply because I pray often and keep my clothes on does not make me chaste. This highlights the author's lack of objectivity, since he is using slanted wording to make a point. Yes, a number of couples pray together every day, and a few households have similar priorities as the "Knights of the Holy Queen." However, the author jumps to the rash conclusion that the majority of the campus is like that. Regardless of whether that is true or not, he does not provide specific, documented instances of his assertions. It's called a logical fallacy: "it may be the case in this instance, so it must be in the case of the campus as a whole!" Hence, this particular entry must be removed, because the cited source is not objective, and certainly does NOT hold a neutral position. 69.243.13.62 21:45, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

This next bit was added by me a couple of minutes ago. I want to be sure everyone knows it's not part of what the original poster wrote... Re: the "fully clothed" bit... I was a student there, and I can state from personal experience that I and my girlfriend had sex in Trinity Hall (one of the dorms, there) in the summer of 1985, and neither one of us had a stitch of clothes on, unless you count the condom I was wearing... And, no, we didn't pray beforehand. We were not unique in having had sex in the dorms. I could (but won't) name a large number of couples I knew who got it on actually IN the dorms, let alone off-campus.

The "Franciscan University Murders"

Though the events are factual, as far as I can tell, the term "Franciscan University Murders" is an invention of Stubbleboy. In terms of precedence, other crimes have been perpetrated on other college campuses without warranting a link from the College’s wiki article. The deaths of Aaron Land and Brian Muha are tragic, but are not significant enough to the school or its history to warrant this link.Comrade Nikolai 19:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I looked on the University of Miami's Web site, a school plagued with shootings and violence that frequently makes the news and there seemed no mention there. El Clarque 00:17, 9 December 2006

• Yes no doubt the decision of two either a.)sock-puppets or b.)inexperienced users, seeing as each of you has what about 20 edits a piece? The fact that the University of Miami has so many incidents and Franciscan University has this only one should even futher warrent a link to the page to futher educate individuals on the history of the university. This wasn't just a murder, this was an assault, robbery, kidnapping, gross sexual imposition, shooting murder. These crimes don't occur everyday, the crime itself received tons of media attention. I would however disagree a link if we were speaking in terms of university image, however this is an encyclopedia, not an advertisment. I will leave the link out, although I disagree with both of you. --Stubbleboy 16:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Further, Stubbleboy, University of Miami (as everyone knows) is an excellent parellel with Franciscan University in regards to its Catholic heritage and is equally on par in its Orthodoxy. I couldn't agree with the given example in its context of use, in terms of the experts' decision to that specific editing of the article. Hence I must defend these fine examples of erudite, obviously unbiased gentlepersons. They are both shinying, rare examples of presenting a neutral point of view. (There ARE two of them afterall, so they can't BOTH be wrong if they agree with each other). A good reading and research of the University of Miami will show you that not only was that given example the best example that could have been picked to defend their particular editing of the article, but also, it shows their extensive knowledge of the college campus of Steubenville (in regards to the importance of things mentioned in the article). So they must be right. 69.243.13.62 01:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Conferences

We should mention the Catholic Youth Conferences that occur there every summer, and their directly related conferences that occur around the Nation. There are around 30,000 youth that attend these every summer. Also, there are other conferences held there every summer. These were contributors to Fr. Scanlan's reforms, and so are essential to the University's history and current state. poopsix 10:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Claim made that UoS changed from "college" to "university" in 1985, in 1st paragraph,

This claim is NOT correct. I went to that school from fall '84 semester to spring '86 semester. It was the "UNIVERSITY of Steubenville" right from the start of my attendance. The change from "COLLEGE of Steubenville" had occurred several years before I attended. I cannot give a date, and I have neither the time, nor the inclination, to look for an on-line reference to when the name change occurred, nor to vet the reference for accuracy [fix your own damn "encyclopedia", it's YOUR project, not mine], but all the materials I got from them before I went there all said "University", not "College". The university's own website (referenced in the article) does NOT say the change occurred in 1985, but rather 1986, and the school's website is also worded vaguely, such that one can reasonably surmise that the 1986 "change" was when some legal "name-change" was finalized, rather than when their actual usage of their "name" changed.

I recall this quite well, because I wrote and posted a "Protest Poster" at the dining hall during the fall '85 "Parents' Weekend" that specifically made a negative comparison between the (several years past) "College of Steubenville" and the (then current) "University of Steubenville". If the change occurred in 1985 (as the article says) or in 1986 (as the on-line reference the article cites says), then how could I have been making a distinction in my poster between the better, (and some years) past "College" and the [then] present, and not as good, "University" in the fall of 1985?

I'm not willing to devote any effort to fixing your "encyclopedia" by doing online research to fix the errors I know from personal experience. However, if someone who is working on it wishes to access knowledge from experience as a source to tell him/her what to research, I am available to answer questions on this subject at <cheshirehuman@yahoo.com> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.141.93 (talk) 01:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:FUS Seal.gif

Image:FUS Seal.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 04:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

& Heritage Foundation

Franciscan University has a link with the Heritage Foundation (Republican partisan think tank) on it's job link section of its web site. http://www.franciscan.edu/home2/Content/main.aspx?id=613&cc=611

And your point is?????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.141.93 (talk) 19:58, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131204013812/http://www.franciscan.edu:80/chancellor/FrScanlanRetires/ to http://www.franciscan.edu/chancellor/FrScanlanRetires/

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Recent conviction of David Morrier

An unregistered editor is insisting that information about the recent conviction of David Morrier, a former Franciscan friar who was associated with the university and has pled guilty to sexual battery. This may be worth mentioning in the article - I'm not completely sure but it's worth discussing - but the manner in which the unregistered editor is adding this to article is unacceptable. This information does not belong in the lede of the article; it is not essential information about this institution in a lede that has to summarize the history, resources, accomplishments, and challenges of a university that is over 75 years old. Moreover, the unregistered editor is also inserting his or her own point of view ("The school does not follow the Church's teachings on rape or clerical abuse as intrinsically disordered as it may have ignored accusations of abuse against students by friars under the guise of mental health counseling." and "No apology was made to the victim, only prayers."). ElKevbo (talk) 19:25, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

I concur with @ElKevbo here. If this was the school's president, that would be one thing, but for a counselor, that warrants a sentence in the history section at most. I'd like to see evidence of enduring damage to the school's reputation before I'd consider any more than that as due. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:06, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

It's absolutely essentialy information as prospective students and employees should be made aware of how the school is run, especially in the context that it is a religious institution that leverages its clergy in professional roles.

Nothing in the edits are opinon, they are events that have happened.

Furthermore, as far as I can tell, what authority do you have over the pages of this article? 2603:7000:9F00:CF9:9085:C4C:15E1:133E (talk) 14:57, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

First, you must stop edit warring. This is a collaborative project and insisting that your version of the article must be in place and reverting the edits of multiple other editors is not acceptable; you are liable to be blocked if you continue this behavior.

Second, you may find it instructive to review our core policy of neutrality. In short, we do not make "prospective students and employees...aware of how the school is run." This is a general encyclopedia for all readers, not a warning guide. We also do not insert our own opinions into articles as you have clearly done with the statement "The school does not follow the Church's teachings on rape or clerical abuse as intrinsically disordered as it may have ignored accusations of abuse against students by friars under the guise of mental health counseling."

Please revert your edit until we can reach a consensus here in Talk. ElKevbo (talk) 22:42, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

If its collaborative then please explain what is the issue with calling attention to actual events that have happened at the university with citations provided. This has nothing to do with bias as there is no personal opinion. The university claims to abide by certain standards and moral principles but does not in reality abide by them.

How does it make sense to include the school's position on homosexuality but not its position on sexual abuse and its disregard for the principles they claim to abide by. 2603:7000:9F00:CF9:9085:C4C:15E1:133E (talk) 14:02, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

I added the content, with heavy revision, to the history section after undoing a deletion (which, in retrospect, I should have done manually; I wasn't paying attention and didn't realize from the diff that the content was in the lead, which is inappropriate — my bad).

We can only insert what is in reliable sources. It's an inherently flawed principle, because that means sometimes things that may be true are left out, but it's a principle without which Wikipedia cannot exist. To that end, the content has been restored. It does not belong in the lead section of the article, however; Wikipedia has norms about what does and does not go in the lead (see WP:LEAD for reference). WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 02:16, 26 March 2022 (UTC)