Talk:France-Hayhurst family

Notability

Below is the content of a discussion between Salinae and Nishkid64 concerning notability of the France-Hayhurst family following a speedy deletion, which resulted in the page being reinstated.

You have deleted my article on the France Hayhurst family. I cannot find any reference to the deletion request in any AfD. Could you please clarify the reason why the article was deleted? Salinae 09:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the article under CSD A7 as I believed it was not a very notable family. I still do think the family itself is not notable in a more general respect, but if you disagree, I would appreciate if you could provide me with some references as to why the family is notable. Thanks. Nishkid64 17:16, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

The France-Hayhurst's were one of the major landowning families in mid-Cheshire from the late 18th century until the middle of the twentieth century (see for example http://archive.thisischeshire.co.uk/2003/7/9/168776.html and http://www2.valeroyal.gov.uk/internet/vr.nsf/0/C3845BE12FD7B0B28025715E004B3D13/$file/bostock.pdf, which were linked to in the original article). In the mid-nineteenth century the France-Hayhurst's were responsible for the redevelopment of Bostock Green (a model village like Bournville or Port Sunlight, although on a smaller scale). Again, this information was included in the original stub article. The France-Hayhurst's were so intertwined with the history of the area that it is extremly difficult to write a comprehensive history of the area without refering to them (for example vicar of St. Michael and All Angels, Middlewich, dedication of Middlewich cenotaph, foundation stones of many local schools and civic buildings). Salinae 22:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Given the above will you please un-delete the article. If you disagree will you please let me know why the France-Hayhursts were not notable? Salinae 23:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The article on the family did have references but I don't see how they are notable outside of Cheshire. I mean...if you just google "France-Hayhurst" you only get 350 hits, which doesn't really seem to justify the family's notability. Nishkid64 23:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The notability outside of Cheshire is irrelevant, under Wikipedia:Notability (people) allows for "Major local political figures who receive (or received) significant press coverage", and also "100 year test (future speculation) -- In 100 years time will anyone without a direct connection to the individual find the article useful?". In addition to the significant quantity of newspaper articles written about the France-Hayhursts (the most recent in 2003) I can point to at least two books published within the past 30 years which discuss members of the France-Hayhurst family who had died 100 years previously. Also your 'google test' doesn't work, since (1) the internet is relatively poor with information pre-1990, and (2) the family gave their name to significant numbers of local structures, but under the name "Hayhurst" (which has 517,000 hits). Please un-delete the article. If, for technical reasons, you cannot undelete the article, then let me know and I will re-create it. Salinae 00:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, good point about Google. I was thinking that, but I wasn't so sure. Anyway, you persuaded me to change my decision, so now I have restored the article. =) Nishkid64 00:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Salinae 07:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Notability - again

See notes above for reason for removal of deletion notice, in particular "The notability outside of Cheshire is irrelevant, under Wikipedia:Notability (people) allows for "Major local political figures who receive (or received) significant press coverage", and also "100 year test (future speculation) -- In 100 years time will anyone without a direct connection to the individual find the article useful?"."(unsigned edit made by User:Salinae on 3 June 2007)

I should say that you should be starting to take the hint, if the article is being repeatedly challenged for lack of perceptible notability. I don't agree with your above interpretation as applied to the F-H's: if it were correct then every land-owning family in England should have a Wikipedia article, which is certainly not going to happen.

However, if the article can be improved that would of course be much preferable to deleting it, so can I suggest the following:

(1) Please add (a lot) more information to the article to demonstrate adequately what is so noteworthy about this family - the present article is really thin on content; it reads like a genealogical piece, and is not adequate as it stands. (Actually, the Talk page is more informative than the article...).

(2) In particular please also add some more published and verifiable sources - most of the present sources are archives and original papers, or else genealogical websites. Surely if the family is as notable as you say there must be some books, histories etc that you can refer to, not just original papers and obits. As you seem familiar with the various Wikipedia rules and guidelines I will not paste in the link on how to source, but I'm sure you know where to find it. HeartofaDog 23:35, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with your reasoning as to my interpretation of notability. In particular none of the references I have given are primary sources, although they don't themselves cite their primary sources (since they are not in themselves scholarly works). And if the rules say that everyone in Burkes Landed Gentry is notable, then there are many more articles to write :-). However, I do agree with your analysis that the article needs more work, I just haven't had the time to get around to it. I'll give it a go over the next month or so. Salinae 22:18, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm quite happy to hold off for a reasonable length of time to allow for the article to be developed. There's no need to comment further on sources until you've added to the article, although what I had in mind was the link to the National Archives website. But I am puzzled by your comment that "the rules" say that everybody in the "Landed Gentry" is notable. Please would you unpack this a bit more? HeartofaDog 22:56, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I was being mischievous. The point I was making is that even if the notability guidelines give you an outcome which may appear on the surface to be unacceptable, that doesn't mean that the guidelines aren't applicable on an individual basis. Salinae 07:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, thanks - I have flu at the moment, which is making me a bit slow.HeartofaDog 08:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

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