Talk:France–Morocco relations

Luigi Maio's comments about the CFA zone

The following quote has been removed twoce and re-instated twice by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%D8%A5%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%86

On January 19, 2019, Deputy Prime Minister of Italy Luigi Di Maio accused France of creating poverty in Africa and fueling the European migrant crisis, saying:
"If France didn’t have its African colonies—because that’s what they should be called—it would be the 15th largest world economy. Instead, it’s among the first, exactly because of what it is doing in Africa."[32][34][35]

There are three links that are used to back up the evidence, but points to a criticism of the CFA Franc zone (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFA_franc) The countries concerned are: Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Chad, Congo-Brazzaville, Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Guinea-Bissau, Ivory Coast, Mali, Niger, Senegal, Togo

Morocco doesn't not belong to the CFA franc zone and therefore those comments are irrelevant about the current French-Moroccan relationships

Let's analyse the refences:

No mention of Morocco

Di Maio himself refused to back down in the row, telling reporters late Monday that France was manipulating the economies of 14 African countries that use the CFA franc — a colonial-era currency which is underpinned by the French Treasury.
“France is one of those countries that by printing money for 14 African states prevents their economic development and contributes to the fact that the refugees leave and then die in the sea or arrive on our coasts,” he said. 

No mention of Morocco

But Di Maio went further than what L’Express magazine called “French bashing … à l’Italienne” and accused France of manipulating the economies of African countries that use the CFA franc as their currency, stifling their development.
The CFA franc – made up of two distinct but interchangeable currencies – is used in 14 central and west African countries. It is pegged to the euro at a fixed exchange rate and is guaranteed by the French treasury. To its proponents, it offers stability and control over inflation for the poorer nations that use it; to its critics, it is a symbol of French imperialism that hampers growth.

No mention of France.

Yabiladi is indeed a Moroccan news plarform, but the article has nothing to do with the quote.

It is a description of the state visit of Di Maio in Morocco (discussion about new partnerships between Italy and Morocco, agreements to fight illegal immigration together) — Preceding unsigned comment added by

You were incorrect about Sylvester II, but let's see about this point.

The cited statement, which addressed France's remnant colonial relationships with its former colonies, was made Saturday January 19, 2019. For context, Di Maio said: "If we have people who are leaving Africa now it’s because some European countries, and France in particular, have never stopped colonising Africa ... If France didn’t have its African colonies, because that’s what they should be called, it would be the 15th largest world economy. Instead it’s among the first, exactly because of what it is doing in Africa."

The singling out the CFA policy of came in a different statement on Monday, January 21, 2019. إيان (talk) 17:16, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

References

Pope Sylvester at the University of Al-Qarawiyyin

I would remove the section about the Pope Sylvester II studying at Al-Qarawiyyin because there is no evidence supporting this.

Sylvester was Pope, therefore extended studies have been written concerning his life. None of the sources mention such trips:

- https://www.britannica.com/biography/Sylvester-II - https://repository.brynmawr.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=history_pubs

Borrell, Count of Barcelona, decided to bring the young Gerbert to the county of Barcelona to study the quadrivium (mathesi) "under the direction of Atto", the bishop of Vic. He stayed there for 3 years, and got exposure to Arabic notations for number at Santa Maria de Ripoll and could have been exposed to foreign diplomats at Vic.

There are no mentions of trips to the rest of Spain, and even less crossing the Mediteranean to go to Fes.

I have tried to investigate the sources to support this trip, but unfortunately it isn't very convincing:

- The Champions of Change Dr. Allah Bakhsh Malik p.29ff: No references to support that claim

- "سلفستر الثاني..بابا الفاتيكان الذي تعلم في جامعة القرويين ونظَّر للحملات الصليبية", www.yabiladi.ma: References the link below

- دعوة الحق - جامعة القرويين ودورها في التواصل بين الشعبين المغربي والمصري". www.habous.gov.ma: No references to support that claim

The text mentionning the trip is the following

كما أجمعت كتابات المؤرخين والعلماء والمستتشرقين استقطاب جامعة القرويين للطلاب من مختلف الأنحاء والقارات، وخاصة مــن أوربا، ومن غير المسلمين. ونذكـر هنا واحدا منهم كان له شأن كبير في تاريخ أوربا بلغ أعلى درجـات الكنيسة، وهو الطالب (جبيربرت دوورياك) القادم من قرطبة، (ولد حوالي سنة 955 م)، والذي ارتقى إلى درجــة البابوية بعد دراسته بالقرويين، وأصبح يسمى البابا (سلفستر الثاني)، وكان له فضل نقل الأرقام العربية وإدخالها إلى أوربا لأول مـرة في التاريخ، وبما حمله من نظريات الفقه الإسلامي أدت إلى تطوير الفقه الروماني، والتأثير في العقلية الأوربية، وفي قوانينها، نظمها، وأعرافها.

It claims (without any evidence or reference) that Gerbert went there to study. However, it also claims that he was coming form Cordoba, which is another unproved claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EH-IDTBR (talk • contribs) 21:47, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

EH-IDTBR The source is right there: "جامع القرويين" by Abdelhadi Tazi. إيان (talk) 22:03, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Robert Prazeres, do you happen to have any further information on the question of the attendance of Gerbert (Pope Sylvester II) at al-Qarawiyyin? إيان (talk) 22:09, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Gaudio's book on Fes mentions this story as being reported by a European Orientalist (Fès: joyau de la civilisation islamique, p. 138). This source is also cited affirmatively on the French wikipedia page for Sylvester II. The claim is also cited by scholars in another relevant book (see here). And then the claim is also repeated in various less scholarly sources such as news stories and guidebooks (e.g. here (English translation can be found here), here, here, and here). (Note: a lot of the sources are French but that's unavoidable given the subject matter, sorry.)

That said, another relatively reliable web source at qantara-med.org (here) mentions that the story of his visit to Fes is probably a legend originating from reports of his visit to Cordoba. I haven't found more sources which specifically debunk this claim (which could also just be a limit of what's available to me), but in sum it's possible that this is a story that has existed for a long time but that it is not accepted by all scholars today. My recommendation would be to include the claim (using the sources cited above) while noting that it is (presumably) not accepted by some modern scholars. And yes, it could be one of those things where some writers have an interest in promoting the claim while others have an interest in being skeptical, but in that case Wikipedia policy requires that you discuss or mention both views where reasonable. Robert Prazeres (talk) 23:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

• Another reliable source is Messier (2010) The Almoravids and the Meanings of Jihad who mentions in p:45, "The Qarawiyin Mosque, established in Fez in the ninth century...Its fame spread beyond the Maghrib, and its university attracted scholars and students from....Among its students was a Christian scholar from France who had been studying mathematics and astronomy in Spain from C.E. 967 to 970. How long he stayed is unknown, but some time after he returned home, he became Pope Sylvester II" In his Commentary on Sources (p:202) he said that, "The source for Pope Sylvester II’s study at the Qarawiyin is Moroccan author Abd al-Hady al-Tazi." -TheseusHeLl (talk) 23:52, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Robert Prazeres and TheseusHeLl: Hello friends, thanks for chiming in. It seems that all sources ultimately point to Abdelhadi Tazi's book جامع القرويين, which. It seems the best solution is presenting both claims, as Robert Prazeres suggested. What do you think? إيان (talk) 16:36, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I've already updated the University of al-Qarawiyyin page with a short example of how this story can be presented while noting that it is not accepted by all writers. I didn't have the full reference for Tazi's book, but you could add that as a first reference and then add the other French/English references as additional support. And if we really want to be specific in the future someone can also add a further footnote (e.g. using Template:Refn) discussing the story from a bibliographical/reference point of view. PS: I'm not familiar with this page much, but while you're at it you could also mention that Gerbert of Aurillac was apparently one of the first to bring Arabic numerals to Europe, which makes the exchange a little more meaningful. Robert Prazeres (talk) 17:05, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

There seems to be no real evidence of this trip. It is most likely a conflation of his contacts with Al-Andalus which fed into the legend of him as a magician and a seeker of exotic knowledge. This article here states that the first to suggest a trip to Fez was Jousé Ponteleimon Krestovitich in the 19th century, but the citation is in Arabic and i cannot read it. Unfortunately, it seems to be one of those claims that snowballed out of control, especially in Arabic sources, and now is taken as fact without a shred of evidence. The life of Sylvester II is well documented, and a trip to a different continent would have certainly be noted in the medieval sources.--Eccekevin (talk) 06:40, 1 September 2020 (UTC)