Talk:Floral Magician Mary Bell/Archive 1

Needs a serious rework

I do not want to step on your toes here and hack away boldly – given I have not yet seen this series, I could not really write about it familiarly anyways – but it needs a serious rewrite. It does not come close to meeting NPOV or NOR, and includes a lot of superfluous information. For example, discussion on what constitutes a mahou shoujo series belongs on mahou shoujo, not here, and it has a standard episode length (and they always vary by a little), so it does not warrant a mention. There is also a lot of very obviously wrong information (eg mahou shoujo adding fanservice for otaku. While it happens, the vast majority do not). You also need to reference a lot more, and stick with better sources. I do not normally make comments like this, but I do not normally come across such a long article that needs so much removed/rewritten. Elric of Grans 05:55, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your interests in this stub. I'm fully aware that it needs a lot of rework, both in contents and style. I'd appreciate it if you would rewrite it boldly and totally. I would like to help to fill the gaps in articles about manga, anime, and related articles, but I would be very slow anyway. For now, I just created some stubs as place holders. This specific one is not good at all... writing this long was beyond my ability. The discussion about "fanservice" is simple, but the term "fanservice" may be confusing. I think your definition of "fanservice" is very strict, but that's not the point. The majority of otakus in Japan would soon understand and agree with what was meant here, that is, (1) Many magical-girl anime are more or less otaku-oriented. (2) Ashi Pro created Umimomo and MB at the same time, and Momo was quite otaku-oriented while MB was (almost) purely aimed at children (this contrast is clear). You can ask anyone who knows the history of magical-girl anime. But this part is not that important for now, so I'll remove it later. Again, thank you very much for your sincere comment. I'm still very new to Wikipedia and still need a lot of help. —Gyopi 09:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I am well aware of the definition of fanservice, so there is no fear of me restricting it to panty-flashes or whatnot. I would consider myself a mahou shoujo otaku too, being quite familiar with the vast majority of them, however, this is one title I know nothing about, so at the moment I would not be able to add anything. Besides, I was planning on tossing a coin to decide between the works of Tachikawa Megumi or the classic Studio Pierrot mahou shoujo titles for my next project. I shall move it up my list of things to get, but that will still be some time off.

As for mahou shoujo aimed at otaku, there is no question that they exist, nor is there any question that many otaku love the genre, but my argument is that the vast majority of mahou shoujo anime are not specifically made for otaku. Indeed, the vast majority of mahou shoujo anime (this is not the case with the manga) are vehicles for promoting merchadise targeting young girls (compacts, etc). If we want to look at manga, Nakayoshi is an example of a phone book entirely dedicated to titles aimed at young girls. For what it is worth, I have a large collection of Nakayoshi titles, but just because an otaku enjoys them does not mean they were made specifically to entertain that demographic.

As some general advice, I would suggest you do not include any content you cannot verify. For example, I am sure there were Mahou no Tenshi Creamy Mami movies, also, even though you note that Toei Animation are able to more easily make the movies, considering the vast majority of major mahou shoujo works are by them, you are downplaying that fact, and making this series seem a lot more significant than it should (to a layman it reads as if it were one of the two greatest titles of all time). Also, otaku does not imply adult. If you mean adults, you should say adults; if you mean otaku, you should say that. Also, Ashi Productions have continued to make shoujo and mahou shoujo pieces as there were more Minky Momo works after this, and the Ultra Maniac OVA was not that far back. You also need to remember to keep on topic. For example, if there is something to prove that Chiba Yuriko is a popular animator, it is about the person, not this series, so it belongs there.

I may look at reformatting a few parts of this page later today, but I cannot provide anything to verify any of your claims, so you will need to sort through that yourself. I would also suggest that you go through and identify what specifically belongs here, and what goes elsewhere. As I know nothing about the plot or the characters, I shall skip that entirely. I will also mark some things for you, so you know what needs to be done. Elric of Grans 23:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I'm sure you will be a great help. You even mentioned "mahou shoujo anime are vehicles for promoting merchadise targeting young girls"... Yes. That's it. If toys don't sell well, anime can be terminated or "modified" even if anime itself is popular. And I can see your point. You are talking about, for instance, Tokimeki Tonight, right? Tokimeki Tonight manga was purely for girls, and Tokimeki Tonight anime too. I agree there was such a show too. And when I said otaku-oriented, I meant, they are conscious of the existence of otaku fans, and accordingly more or less change the story (this doesn not mean, the show will be exclusively aimed at otaku people, like Komughi-chan). For instance, Hime-chan no Ribbon manga was purely for girls. But when they made it into anime, they inserted a bathing scene. This kind just happens, almost always. Shoujo manga is (at least was) purely for girls, but many magical-girl anime are not equally pure. (This is just a description, not a value judgement.)

You are right about Creamy Mami movies, and also there was actually Esper Mami movie. I'll make clear my point when I rewrite that part, that is, in that Natsuyasumi Manga Matsuri, they picked up Moomin+Little Twins+MB, when they could have picked up Momo instead of MB, since both are Ashi Pro's and the two shows aired at the same time. So it seems that they thought children would prefer MB to Momo. Plus, still, the existence of Phoenix no Kagi (and the 2 educational films) is notable. Such a thing is very rare. About Ashi Pro, I hope I'll discusss it in Ashi Productions. The point is, after the "end of the bubble" many things drastically changed, also in the anime industry, and MB is the last product before that catastrophe.

Thank you again for your proper guidance. I realized that I should show more evidences here. The nature of MB and Momo is just a fact and common sense among otakus in Japan, so I prematurely assumed that there was no need to strictly re-prove it. Also, since I presonally like those titles, it is somehow difficult for me to keep NPOV. Obviously I have to try to be more modest and keep neutrality.

Personally, I'd like someone like you to work on Minky Momo too. The current article for Minky Momo is not very satisfactory, considering its historical importance. I'd say at least we should distinguish 2 Momo's more clearly. —Gyopi 02:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe I see your point on otaku-targeted additions: I had thought you were suggesting most mahou shoujo titles were of the same ilk as Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha and Shin Cutey Honey. The level of this varies greatly between shows, however, and is probably not worth discussion, except where there is significant inclusion; in a more general sense (ie more than just Mary Bell), discussion of this topic belongs on mahou shoujo. The two educational films, however, are very notable, and the more information that can be found on them the better! If anything, I would consider them more significant than the movie.

As far as citation, whether it be an essay or a Wikipedia article, you need to cite any and all claims, even if they are common sense. On Wikipedia, you do not need to cite plot and character details that come directly from the source (eg "Mary Bell is a magical girl"), but any interpretation does require citation (eg "Mary Bell is based on Mary Poppins"), and opinions are right out (eg "The fairy is cute!"). Generally speaking, you should provide referenced for practially everything.

I would agree that Mahou no Princess Minky Momo is one of the most significant mahou shoujo titles around, but I have only actually seen the original series, so I cannot contribute very well. The Studio Pierrot classics are (mostly) completely absent too, so I intend to correct that soon. Elric of Grans 02:52, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I did a quick fix and removed many parts. In a few years, someone else might newly and independently add/enrich the similar information with “better” evidences, but for now, it is not easy to do so. The story about Studio Giants could be relatively easily proved, as it is written in the booklet coming with the DVD and it is also written in ja.wikipedia, but come to think of it it'd be meaningless to distinguish Ashi Pro and S.G. because almost no one knows Studio Giants anyway. Actually there wasn't even an article for Ashi Productions either in Wikipedia.

Thank you again for your warm encouragement =) I'll spend just a little more time for this article to check/adjust the details, and then I'll stop working on it for a while and maybe I'm going to write short "fact-only" articles about some overlooked manga/anime, including Minky Momo and Sweet Mint. And Star of Cottonland; I guess now it's easier to "show evidences" of its goodness, as there are now a few reviews about SoC written in English out there, unlike a few years ago. (EDIT: But probably we shouldn't try to talk about how good/bad it is...) I hope the similar will happen for other older manga/anime too someday. I am slow anyway, but writing short articles for other overlooked works is better than wasting a lot of time here. I learned a good lesson here. Thanks to you, my next contribution will be (hopefully) much NPOV. —Gyopi 14:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

You can talk about how good/bad something is if you are specific (eg "the animation was exceptional for its time", or "the series was axed after 20 episodes") so long as it is not your own opinion/research. For good/bad, you generally need to reference recognised critics (ie some guy on 2ch is not good enough), and you need to give both the good and the bad. Check Boogiepop series#Critical reception for an example of how I have been doing it. As an extra point, remember you should be writing prose in articles, not dot-points. Elric of Grans 23:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I could write how good/bad something is, but... Maybe someone else will write it when there are recognised critics several years later. What will be written will be about the same (especially, the things about Sakuga are too obvious) but for now, I can't show any evidence. For instance, MB's Sakuga was exceptionally stable while Sakuga was quite problematic in Sweet Mint (the 2nd Ashi Pro m.g), which is (for otaku) just obvious, "if you see it, you know it" kind of thing, but still, it would be difficult to prove it by citing recognised critics; when the anime itself is not recognized here, how could we cite recognized comments? Someone like Machibari can't be called "recognized" here either, because he is not recognized here, really. I do not know well about 2ch. There should be threads contributed to Momo as it is very popular, but I don't have the logs. Maybe they don't have any threads for Mint, Yumi etc. —Gyopi 00:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Your example is not really an example of something being 'good' or 'bad'. You should include a section on critical commentrary on the series (it is one of the core topics that every anime article needs). The critic need not be English-speaking either, and if you can have at least some Japanese commentary, even better. I am currently trying to find some good Japanese reviews on the Boogiepop light novels, for example. Elric of Grans 01:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

You said "The critic need not be English-speaking either, and if you can have at least some Japanese commentary, even better." but on the other hand, you said "please verify the credibility of this source" for what Kusaka etc. said. What I wanted to show at that time was simply "Some of magical girl anime otaku highly appreciate this series" so I assumed that it would be enough to quote from some general magical-girl related web sites. As another (technically unrelated) note, Kusaka is a devoted Emi lover, so what he is saying about Emi may be quite biased, but he is talking about Mary Bell just normally as it was in the history of magical girls. A personal web-site is not qualified to be cited as a source of information, even when what we want to say is simply "one of magical-girl fans says this, and another fan says that..."?

If anything, first, we should make a proper entry for Minky Momo; Second, distinguish and compare 2 Momo's properly. And then we will be more or less ready to talk about the situation back then, when Umimomo and MB were broadcast at the same time and how avarage otakus and non-otakus reacted. Now I don't really think that we should include the fact about popularity. What I originally tried to record was that it was not very popular among anime otakus, even though there are a few dedicated fans even now and it was loved by children. But that's probably not important here, now I rethink. —Gyopi 03:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I am talking about a specific section on critical opinion: a critical opinion section can only come from reviews by recognised reviewers. It does not matter if the reviewer is writing in English, Japanese or Esperanto, as long as they are a legitimate critic, their opinion carries much weight. Agreed, a childrens show with no English release has little chance for suitable reviews, but with that many other languages it has been released in, there is a chance.

This is quite different to a section on the fan response to a series. Generally speaking, fan sites should be avoided as they tend to be significantly biased towards specific serials, but not always: that is why I marked that it needed to be verified, rather than just removing them altogether (it would have taken me quite some time to check myself, as I do not know many kanji yet). If it were a site where they went "Yeah, Mary Bell is the best! Forget the rest: it's all about the fairies!", it would be no good. If it were a site where they balance the good and the bad of several serials, it may be useful for discussion on fan reception. Generally sales figures or other concrete data are better for such topics. See RS for more details.

As for Mahou no Princess Minky Momo, again, I have not seen the second series, so my efforts would be minimal. I am currently working on getting Mahou no Tenshi Creamy Mami up to scratch, but once I get it going I shall take a looksie at it. 04:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, so the bottom line is, let's not add a critical opinion section now. —Gyopi 06:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll contribute to other articles first (maybe 4 or 5 Pierrot magical-girl anime, and other Ashi Pro m-g anime). Many other anime have "otaku-oriented" elements (both creator-side and audience-side) that are not aimed at children, and that is not limited to erotic fan-service. Although these elements are really obvious and nothing difficult, since I'm not good at writing, it'll be easy for me to explain one by one specifically for each anime (though it may take some time). Possibly it might be useful information generally. Maybe not. If it's useless we can just delete it later. —Gyopi 16:31, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

That would count as trivia, which is generally not welcome on Wikipedia. Trivia of that level is definitely not appripriate. Things like "Erika's broom is named Chappy, after Mahoutsukai Chappy" for Hime-chan no Ribbon may be appropriate, but "In episode six, at five minutes and twenty seconds there is a panty-shot, and in episode seven at..." would not. Elric of Grans 23:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your advice and sorry if I confused you. I should have been clearer (I am not a good writer...) I said "not limited to erotic fan-service"... for instance, one episode of Minky Momo is a so-called robot anime; do you think ordinary girls at that time wanted to watch such a robot anime? That parody was aimed at otaku. And let me make one thing clear here; I'm not an anime otaku. I watched those girls' anime in Japan as an ordinary girl, as a non-otaku fan. Many girls did like Mary Bell, which is a primary information that I experienced myself even though I can't prove it. On the other hand, 2 Minky Momo's were both about to be terminated (technically once terminated) even though otaku fans seemed to love them. —Gyopi 00:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I knew you did not mean just that kind of fanservice, but it is the most common. The point is still that a list of fanservice elements is not desirable, unless they are really significant. I recently did a minor clean-up at Fancy Lala if you are interested in where cross-overs are OK. Elric of Grans 01:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I think now I realized the problem. Maybe my phrase "one by one... for each anime" confused you. What I meant was not making such a list of fanservice elements, but that I'd like to create a (now missing) article for each of those (less-known) anime, where we can discuss about notable things about each specific show. And what I meant by "it may take some time" was not that I was going to make such a silly list, but generally I'm not a fast writer and creating several new articles, even stubs, will take me some time. —Gyopi 03:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

So, starting an article like List of fanservice elements in magical girl anime? That would not be as bad, but it still more fansite than encyclopedic. It would be better to get the ones that are significant (eg Daiichi referring to Himeko as Akko-chan, Giant-Shiine-chan's pendant blinking when his transformation time was almost up, etc) and insert them into the article. Again, this should be as prose, not as a list (see Boogiepop and Others (novel)#Allusions/references to other works as an example of how I have done this with a light novel). Elric of Grans 04:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

No, I'm saying I'm goint to start articles like Magical Angel Sweet Mint, Magical Emi etc. (if they don't exist yet). Because it is practically impossible to tell what is unique and what is not unless you know each of those magical-girl anime from around 1980-1995. As you pointed out, it is not a good idea to write "Unlike anime X where... or anime Y where... this anime is..." I should make a seperate entry for anime X, anime Y... —Gyopi 06:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

A few comments on the current state of the article:

• "a group of characters having a wonderful time with Mary Bell, a magic user who looks like a little girl, and fairies." I wanted to make this read better, but without seeing the series I do not know how. "and faries" needs work: is it "and her fairy friends", or "and a group of fairies"?
• The overview needs to be worked into a paragraph or two. I tweaked the content a little. Too much information about other titles (this article needs to stay on topic), and some wrong information (eg Slayers is not mahou shoujo).
• "These four supervised about 80% of the 50 episodes." It is better to give exact figures on Wikipedia. In this case, say exactly how many episodes it was. Also, something like this need not be referenced --- it would be like referencing that Maron transforms into Kaito Jeanne in most chapters of Kamikaze Kaitou Jeanne.
• Internationalization needs to be worked into prose. Any dates you can add (for first released/aired) would be a great addition too, but the information is much more appropriate now.
• "“Mary Bell” should be two words, although it is often spelled as one word (“Marybell”)." Perhaps too trivial. Discussion about different forms of the name should only be included if there is some significance to it (eg Aa! Megami-sama!).
• With your references, I would recommend using Citation templates: they come out much better looking.

Things are generally looking much better now. Closer to NOR and NPOV, with the information getting more relevant too. Elric of Grans 01:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! I'll think about those points. As an ESL speaker, sometimes I may sound confusing or even rude, even though I don't mean to, but I'm really thankful to you. I'd like you to know that. I hope you are not feeling that you are wasting your time here...

By the way, what is the plural of otaku? Should I say otakus (I usually say so)? Or can I say "two otaku" "many otaku" like "fish"? —Gyopi 03:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

No, I can see the page improving. If you kept adding more OR and POV I would have felt I had wasted my time. Japanese words are normally pluralised in English like sheep: it does not matter if there are one or many of them, they are the same (otaku, shinigami, tsunderekko). 04:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

• I like each of these anime, but because I like it, I want to only record the truth, and I don't want to lie. I removed the things for which I can't provide good evidences for now. Someone else might restore the similar information when (for some good luck) those anime are officially translated into English and released, and reliable critics write things about them. Another possibility is, someone reliable in Japan will publish a book titled "History of Magical Girls" when we can quote things like "rare, beautiful anime", "Chiba's high-quality drawing" easily from the Mary Bell chapter, without letting others suspect it's just my own opinion.
• You said "Slayers is not mahou shoujo" but that's disputable. I did a quick check, and found that ja.wikipedia listed it as a magical-girl anime until around 2006-02-11 [1], when a certain editor suggested that what is obviously an magical-girl anime should be listed. If you read their Talk page, their conclusion is not that Slayers is not m.g anime, either. Generally, no one in Japan would say that clearly it is not mahou shoujo. Rather many would agree it's a kind of mahou shoujo, in a broader sense. But the definition of magical girl is different from person to person, so what you said is not wrong either. Mahou shoujo (ja.wikipedia) currently lists Mahoujin Guruguru, and I guess it's against your definition too (because you removed Guruguru too). On the other hand, I disagree with "the de facto definition of a magical girl" written in Magical girl, and that's why I first wrote "Mary Bell is a magical-girl anime in its original meaning. Note that..." Yes, I know I should have discussed it in Magical girl. But I was (and still am) too new to Wikipedia to know exactly what I should and what I shouldn't. —Gyopi 06:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I know people have done postgraduate studies on mahou shoujo anime. Getting your hands on a thesis would be difficult, but that would be your best bet for getting the kinds of things you want for the article. Reviewers are also likely to comment on more superficial aspects (the looks, the sounds, etc), but will be no easier to find in this case.

Slayers is a standard Fantasy series, in the most common sense: Swords and Sorcery. Whilst mahou shoujo is probably a sub-set of fantasy, and as such all mahou shoujo serials are also Fantasy serials, not all Fantasy serials would be mahou shoujo (eg Juuni Kokki). Slayers often gets termed mahou shoujo because the main character is a girl who happens to use magic, but it uses the standard formulae and cliches of Fantasy serials. I have not seen Mahoujin Guru Guru, but my understanding always was that it parodies Fantasy RPGs, and as such would fall into the Parody and Fantasy genres. I have never seen Mahoujin Guru Guru classified as mahou shoujo anywhere before, and Slayers is rarely considered it either. I just checked that talk page you mentioned too, and someone there also pointed out that Slayers falls under High Fantasy or Heroic Fantasy, not mahou shoujo... Elric of Grans 06:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, several universities in Japan seem to be teaching anime/manga now. So not only postgraduate studies, but there should be anime professors and their papers, and if I looked really hard, I might find something. But I think there are more urgent gaps to fill than proving a small thing like "Chiba is an outstanding animator." For instance, Shingo is not in the manga list by Kazuo Umezu. I'd like to contribute to Yumiko Ōshima too.

I'm fully agree with you about Slayers (and Guruguru). As you remember, I said that there were only 2 non-Toei, magical-girl anime that turned into movies, and you said that was not true, naming Mami, and you also said it was not fair to exclude Toei things. So I tried to be as fair as possible by naming every possible title there. Mami VS Momo is a kind of commercial (or a parody) to promote anime. Technically, it's not a mahou shoujo anime, but a joke movie about magical girls. But I agree, it is a movie, not an OVA. And if we have to count it, maybe we have to count everything that might be a magical-girl anime. To strengthen my statement that it is rare that a magical-girl anime is made into a movie, it's a good thing that that list gets shorter. So, for the record, I am not the one who removed Slayers and Guru Guru trying to unfairly make that list shorter. Also we have Kiki's Delivery Service and Esper Mami, but I'm not sure if we should call them magical girls, and since we are saying "other examples include...", I think we are fair enough.

One more thing. You seemed to be interested in those educational films, and I didn't reply properly. Yes, it's more or less notable. Here's a link to an English article I found: Goku's Traffic Safety Toei makes this kind of film quite often. The full list (in Japanese) is here: ja:防災アニメ. As you can see, the list is longer than the first list, so being made into educational films is relatively less notable.

Thanks again for always helping me, Elric. In return, I'll try to contribute to articles about Pierrot's anime (seems your favorite) too. Please don't hesitate to re-edit my edit if it is not appropriate (contents, style, grammar, wording, anything). —Gyopi 15:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Really, the only way to correctly make the statement that "mahou shoujo are rarely made into films" would be to find a statement to that effect by a "reliable" source. Even if you listed them all in a note, that just means that there have been X films (it would be more efficient to simply state that there have been X films than to list them, but that's not my point). What is that comparing to though? You would also need to list all the mecha movies, all the comedy movies, (...), all the anime movies ever, calculate percentiles, do a lot of excess things... the end result would be OR, and would not belong on this page anyways (probably more of a 'Mahou shoujo anime movies' article). It is not a good path to follow, which is why it should either not be claimed (claiming there was a movie is good, claiming that it is exceptional is not), unless there is someone who has stated its significance.

Most of my work actually goes into the Boogiepop series related articles, but while there is little happening there I am filling in a little time bringing some stubs up to scratch. I actually like Hime-chan no Ribbon a lot more than Mahou no Tenshi Creamy Mami, but that article was not as desparate for some help ;) Elric of Grans 23:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Even if it is true, you can't write it unless it is "Verifiable". But how about yours? Strictly speaking, many articles include your edits many edits (including yours) are against the rule. We are suggesting that Mami was popular because two sequels exist; we can state that there are 4 OVAs of Mami, but we shouldn't interpret that fact (that would be OR). There are many other anime that have more than 4 OVAs, and some anime are very popular but have no OVA versions. We are now suggesting that Mami's popularity is seen in many music-related product too, which is again the same thing. Who said so? Also, we have to be careful not to confuse Ohta's popularity with the anime's popularity. Ohta was a popular idol singer, and her dedicated fans must have bought Mami-related products too to listen to Ohta's songs, even thought they are not anime fans.

We are saying Mami is the first of five magical girl anime by Pierrot, which may be "Verifiable" (maybe Pierrot itself states so on its official site) but this indirectly means that we refuse to call TMM a magical-girl anime. True, people do not usually call Sailor Moon and Tokyo Mew Mew "mahou shoujo anime" (at least in its narrow sense) in Japan, but the definition of the english word magical girl might be different. We must not define new terms (WP:NOR#What_is_excluded.3F), still we are discussing about "the definition of a magical girl". Some even say one definition is "de facto" without showing any good source. And you agreed that some anime are often termed mahou shoujo, but you are excluding them according to your original definition. Personally I fully agree with your definition, but that doesn't justify the definition.

But I'm not very sure. Maybe we don't have to be too strict, especially when discussing about subculture. Otherwise, we can't say almost antyhing. Many other arcicles don't seem to be strict anyway, although that does not mean such a thing is advisable.

Hime-chan :) I was a Ribon reader back then. I enjoyed Hime-chan too, but only mildly, feeling it's just a fake Tokimeki Tonight, so, I don't remember well about the original version. I still have the old RMC (comic) version, but it's already modified and Oda Kazuya (an important character only appeared in the first Ribon version) doesn't appear anymore. Mizusawa changed the story a bit radically for some reason. Kazetachi is Kunitachi. If you visit Kunitachi, even if it's your first visit, you'll find the scenery familiar :) (Scenery may have changed now. I don't know the current situation.) Morisawa Yu lives near Tachikawa (that is, next to Kunitachi), so the background of Hime-chan and Creamy Mami is actually the same area of Tokyo.

I'll see if there is anything I can help in Boogiepop series later. But now I have to go back to study... —Gyopi 04:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

They would not make the fifth OVA if the TV series and four previous OVAs were not popular, so something like that is pretty well a given. It is like referencing that a series that we have already said is available in 10 languages had international exposue: if it is availble in 10 languages, then it obviously has international exposure, without requiring an expert to prove it. However, tou are correct that I should have cited Mahou no Tensi Creamy Mami as the first Studio Pierrot mahou shoujo. I can provide a reference, but forgot to. Shall do now!

As far as defining things, Sugar Sugar Rune, for example, is not a mahou shoujo title created by Studio Pierrot, even though they made the anime: it was a manga by Anno Moyoko. Mahou no Tenshi Creamy Mami, Mahou no Yousei Persia, Mahou no Star Magical Emi, Mahou no Idol Pastel Yumi and Mahou no Stage Fancy Lala were all originally created by Studio Pierrot, and are regularly referred to as 'the Studio Pierrot mahou shoujo titles', so it is an easily verifiable statement. I am not deciding that Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon or Tokyo Mew Mew are not mahou shoujo (in English, they are what most people term 'mahou shoujo', as the 'true' mahou shoujo titles are almost never available in English): they are just not Studio Pierrot's mahou shoujo titles.

Many anime/manga articles are in pretty bad shape, but they are also a long way off GA assessment, let alone FA. I want to see these mahou shoujo titles eventually get there, though they will easily be a lot more difficult than the more popular articles.Elric of Grans 05:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's theoretically true to say that TMM anime is not by "Studio Pierrot", because (1) it's based on manga, and (2) the company name has changed from Studio Pierrot to just Pierrot. (2) can't be a true reason; maybe (1) is a better reason. Although, many magical girls are based on manga. Among others, Sally, the Witch was based on manga, but is known as the first Toei's mahou shoujo title. It would be not easy to insist that TMM anime is not a Studio Pierrot's title, and it would be not easy to insist TMM is not a mahou shoujo anime; still, what you pointed out is true. The five titles you listed up are often referred to as "the" Studio Pierrot mahou shoujo titles. —Gyopi 03:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)