Talk:Flight of Poles from the USSR

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Source for Statistics

LUDNOŚĆ POLSKI W XX WIEKU chapter 11-2 has quite a lot of stats-

• Andrzej Gawryszewski LUDNOŚĆ POLSKI W XX WIEKU POLSKA AKADEMIA NAUK NSTYTUT GEOGRAFII I PRZESTRZENNEGO ZAGOSPODAROWANIA IM. STANISŁAWA LESZCZYCKIEGO

I hope this helps--Woogie10w (talk) 19:54, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

• The above link is dead. Page has been archived by Wayback at https://web.archive.org/web/20100722010327/http://www.igipz.pan.pl/wydaw/monografie_5.htm with only some of the links still working.

Rewrite

The article needs a lot of attention. There were no expulsions from the USSR during the Great Purge. Only the Genocide of Poles in the Soviet Union. By the same token, Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939 was followed by deportations to Siberia, not the "expulsions" from the country. The title of this article misleads, because there were no expulsions. In 1945 the governments of People's Republic of Poland and the Soviet Union agreed to Territorial changes of Poland immediately after World War II. The "expulsions" covered only the ethnically German, formerly Polish and Soviet citizens at that time. Poeticbent talk 12:26, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 28 June 2016

{{requested move/dated|Flight of Poles from the USSR}}.  Done.

Flight and expulsion of Poles from the USSR → Flight of Poles from the USSR – The dramatic decrease of ethnic Polish populations in the USSR from October 1917 to the post World War II period did not involve decisions that would warrant the use of such a phrase. There were no expulsions. See my comment right above. Poeticbent talk 12:42, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Comment. Despite the usage of the term in some article names, we do not have an article on Expulsion of people. Expulsion, a disambig, only lists Deportation, defined in its lead as "expulsion of a person or group of people from a place or country". Since the deportation of Poles to Siberia was done within confines of one country (USSR), it is mostly outside of scope of this article. What this article covers is voluntary migration (pre-WWII), and Polish population transfers (1944–46), and few other topics. It is primarily unreferenced, and frankly seems like WP:OR. User:Poeticbent, I'd suggest that you abandon this AfD RM/C that take this mess straight to WP:AFD. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:08, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

• @Piotrus: I fully realize that this is a POV FORK. The title was borrowed from the "Flight and expulsion of Germans". Meanwhile, the actual subject of resettlement of Poles is already covered by several articles including:

1. Polish population transfers (1944–46) article which needs work
2. Soviet repressions of Polish citizens (1939–46) ... and finally:
3. Polish civilian camps in World War II article about evacuations from USSR (which has totally misleading title at present), but could be merged with Flight of Poles from the USSR, before possible option of deleting this.

I looked around to see if there's anything in the same vein that could warrant saving this entry.

1. Iran and the Polish Exodus from Russia 1942 by Ryszard Antolak
2. General Anders Polish army leaves the USSR by Franek Rymaszewski
3. "Exodus of Poles" by Josef Litvak in Norman Davies & Antony Polonsky: Jews in Eastern Poland and the USSR, 1939-46 ISBN 1349217891.

I will get back to you on this, but more feedback would also be appreciated. Poeticbent talk 15:38, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

 Done. Page moved. Please note that the phrase 'exodus' used by Litvak (as oppose to 'flight') would not fit our purposes well, considering all Poles who remained in the USSR. Poeticbent talk 12:53, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

@Poeticbent: Do you still think this page is salvageable, and shouldn't go to AfD? Or we could just be bold and redirect this to Evacuation of Polish civilians from the USSR in World War II. Aren't both articles essentially about the same topic now? Except this one has a wider time scale. Through I guess the wider topic of" the dramatic decrease of Polish presence in the former Soviet Union in the first half of the 20th century." seems encyclopedic, and the article, while bad, is probably not bad enough to WP:TNT... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:45, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Please think of it as a work-in-progress for now; although, in my view, the article puts a wrong spin on the return of Poles to newly reborn Poland in 1919. Yes, they were fleeing Bolshevism, but that was not the purpose of the journey. We don't have an article about the return of Poles to sovereign Second Polish Republic before and after the Peace of Riga. The subject was described in the Polish novel Przedwiośnie (The Spring To Come) by Stefan Żeromski where the Polish political exiles in Siberia escape back from Baku to the newly formed Polish state. Poeticbent talk 00:02, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

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Scope, title

Years later, this does not have an article on pl wiki. I am still finding the title problematic. What is the scope here? From the lead: "the dramatic decrease of Polish presence in what is now the former Soviet Union in the first half of the 20th century". That's not exactly "flight". Maybe this should be just merged to Poles in the Soviet Union? Ping User:Nihil novi, User:Dreamcatcher25, User:Marcelus. Side note: ru wiki has an article on ru:Депортация_поляков (Deportations of Poles - about USSR only, no pl/en wiki; pl wiki has a related article about pl:Wysiedlenia Polaków podczas II wojny światowej (which I is about the deportations of Poles during WWII by both Nazis and Soviets, no interwikis). Lots of stuff to translate everywhere... _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:18, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus: I also find this article problematic. While I do not consider myself an expert on these issues, I haven't yet found any reliable source that confirms that the term "Flight of Poles from the USSR" is used by Polish or international historiography. Furthermore, I am not sure what the scope and main topic of this article are. To describe the gradual depolonisation of the lands that once belonged to the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth? If yes, it should start from the time of the tsars rules. Maybe forced or voluntary migrations of Poles within and from the USSR? In that case, at least the title should be changed. Plus, why did the author(s) also mention "Ukrainian nationalists", if the ethnic cleansing of Poles occurred on lands that were not part of the USSR at that time? To sum up, this article is problematic, and I would rather not translate it into Polish or another language.Dreamcatcher25 (talk) 06:21, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

@Dreamcatcher25 Right. Given the confusing scope, I'd opt to merge this to the Poles in the Soviet Union article. Some (most?) content here seems reusable, it's just the scope of this is messy. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:58, 29 June 2023 (UTC)