Talk:Flag of Romania/Archive 1

To Do

• Collaborate with the Heraldry and vexillology project. There are special templates and markings that should be used. A beginning was done in the way the flag is presented, but perhaps more is needed.

• I haven't been able to get my hands on the text of Justinian's Novella XI, online or offline, and therefore cannot verify whether the text quoted here about the colors used to describe Dacia Justinianus is fact or fiction.

• Law 75 describes several special uses for the flag, such as an elongated vertical form used at special occasions. More info and perhaps pictures should be added to describe this.

Law 75 doesn't describe any alternative flag formats other than the official one. Nevertheless, I've seen pictures with such vertical flags, we should find and add some. --Wirespot 08:11, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

• Official representatives of the Army sections (Land, Air and Naval Forces) should be contacted to clarify the use of the War Flag versus the special unit-type flags, such as the red flag for the Land Forces.

For the moment the four identification flags are hoisted only indoors, at the institutions directly subordinated to the President of Romania (Army, Secret Services, Supreme Defence Council, etc.) ES Vic 21:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• Several pictures would be useful: a picture of a flag with a hole in the middle, from the 1989 Revolution, and perhaps a picture showing the War Flag used on a military occasion.

A picture of the flag with a hole in the middle is already added. I suppose it is from the National Museum of History of Romania. I've added three pictures showing flags used at military ceremonies; I haven't found one with the War Flag of an Air Force unit. ES Vic 21:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I was hoping someone could add a hole-flag picture taken from the streets during the revolution. It seems more appropriate. There are many such pictures on the Web but the copyright unfortunately is unclear. --Wirespot 12:13, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Important! Most of the pictures added by ES Vic are flagged for deletion due to unsuitable copyright. Please, clarify the copyright if you can so they can be kept, otherwise they will dissapear at some point, soon! --Wirespot 12:13, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

All the pictures I posted are from the picture galery of the Romanian Presidency, or the Romanian Minister of National Defence. I suppose that they can be used, withoutpaing for copyright. Those pictures can be used by the newspapers, for free! ES Vic 14:03, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

• A better version of the War Flag is badly needed. The one we have is a scaled JPG of horrendous quality. The one on the Ministry of Defence site is the same. We need a SVG.

Too much info, let's split it

We're starting to gather a LOT of information on Romanian flags in general. The Army flags section has grown quite a bit and new stuff is added all the time (such as war flags throughout history). I expect at some point there's be historical flags and so on. I therefore propose to move "Romanian Army flags" and "Romanian historical flags" to their own dedicated pages, and refer to them in a "See also" section. --Wirespot 21:10, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Any more thoughts on this? ES Vic, you seem to be particularly interested in the army flags, so I think the separate page wouldn't lack a maintainer. There's a lot of stuff that can potentially be added about the army flags and insignia. Do the names I proposed above seem appropriate? --Wirespot 17:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The meaning of the colors

Did the three colours of the Romanian Flag represent something, i.e. Yellow for Wallachia, Blue for ... and green for Transylvania ?

No. But is it possible, because the Romanian flag is the same one as that used in Chad, to have one unified flag for the two, probably named something like Romania_Chad_flag_large.png? Nazism isn't cool 13:19, 18 July 2005 (UTC) PS: If you agree, I'll save one of the pictures to my computer (which is one of those new iMacs with MacOS 10.4) and you can notify me on my talk page when you have deleted them, and I will upload the image under its new name (it won't work if the flag of Chad is using different hues - and if they are, it's probably to give its flag the totally uncool "ROMANIA SUCKS" image. :-))

Actually, the colors DO represent something. Their symbolism is related to a system of colours used in the late Roman Empire. So there it goes: Red is the colour of the Roman Empire. Blue and Yellow are the colours of the Roman province of Dacia. Blue means that the province was an imperial province. Green would have meant that it were a senatorial province. The French flag has its colours for the same reason. Red for the Roman Empire, Blue and White for the Roman province of Galia. Blue meant it was an imperial province, White was its colour. The colour of Italy was also White, only Italy was a senatorial province not an imperial one, therefore its flag is Green, White, Red. The problem is that I can't provide a source, as I know this from my Latin teacher and I have no idea where she read this. Anyway, personally, I'm sure it's correct, although I've heard other stories about theese flags, particularly about the flag of Italy.

I think this particular point has been rendered moot in light of the info now on the page. Following the appearances of the three colors throughout history I think we can safely say that the original assumption is correct: the colors were of special meaning within the three Romanian provinces and it was only natural to be united in the flag at some point. --User:Wirespot Sep 19, 2006

Major page makeover (October 2005)

• I'm the guy who added all the new info. I've checked the info in various sources all over the Web and I've taken care not to go into too much details when I found contradictions.
• I hope it's obvious why I've placed the history first, it's the first thing I'd be interested in about a national flag: how it appeared and how it evolved.
• The alledged dispute with Chad was a fabrication of Romanian scandal newspapers (former "Libertatea", for one) and was picked up by media channels rather well known for their sensationalistic hunts, such as TV channel ProTV. They had no base whatsoever, as it turned out eventually. I think it's pretty obvious that Chad would never get into such a ridiculous dispute, since I don't see how it has a leg to stand on, legally or morally. I also think it's rather silly to have several countries with the same colors, but that's how it is.
• I suspected that the account regarding the first use of the colors in Novella XI will be particularly important, that's why I provided the original Latin text, a translation and all those explanations. I can provide links if you want, but now that you have the Latin text they should be easy to google.
• I hope the timeline manages to explain how and why the flag changed and got where it is today.
• I read the thing about the different shades of blue between Chad and Romania a while back on a rather serious site dedicated to flags. I can probably dig up the link, if needed, but it was presented as speculation there as well. This is silly too, shouldn't countries have to use precise color codes or something, like we do with cars?

--Oct 19, 2005

Yes, they should have standard colours. Who was it that Romania registered its flag with? Try there. Also check official Romanian and Chadian flags. .. Also, the section on Chad needs to be cleaned up a bit. "In an case"... and ... "Chad/Romanian flag is darker" -- RealGrouchy 04:53, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Major page makeover (September 2006)

I've cleaned up and reorganized much of the info. Some of the changes include:

• Reformatting the flag template according to the guidelines of the Vexillological project.
• Organized the design and symbolism into their own detailed section, including a nice table with the colors.
• Moved the War Flag to its own section and added lots of information about it.
• Cleaned up the section of "army identification flags" according to actual documentation from the Ministry of Defence.
• Added details to various sections, including Sovietic flag propaganda during the Communist period.
• Added many references and links to back up the info everywhere.

--User:Wirespot Sep 19, 2006

RGB/CMYK color codes

Please leave the RGB color codes alone. I've done the conversion from CMYK to RGB both by hand, using these guidelines, and with a graphics editor. In both cases I got #0045e6/#ffe60d/#ff1926. Bogdangiusca, where did you get your RGB codes from? You probably color-picked the current image of the Romanian flag, which, by the way, uses the wrong colors. Either both CMYK and RGB are wrong, or neither. The CMYK codes listed tranform to these RGB codes, not any others.

Speaking of which, I move that we fix both the Romanian and Chadian flag pictures ASAP. As per the new info I added, there are now exact color codes available for both the Romanian and Chadian flags. The Chad blue shade is darker by one Pantone digit. Everything else is the same (ratio and the yellow and red shades).--wirespot 7 Jan 2006

The CMYK and RGB figures are wrong. The Pantone colors are corect, so I converted the Pantone color to HTML colour using this. 10:19, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

You can't simply dismiss the CMYK codes listed at FOTW based on that chart you found! The Pantone system uses a real-life swatch of actual colored cards. Converting such a card color to a digital color space is a very subjective process, which involves a color spectometer and certain lighting conditions. It is NOT a trivial process.

Let's compare sources: one one hand, we have a highly acclaimed book (Albums des Pavillions) which vexillologists refer to as "a milestone in vexillology" and "one of the most comprehensive and accurate database on flags". This book offers both the Pantone codes and their own conversion to CMYK (conversion which I assume they did properly, given the good name of the book).

On the other hand, we have a highly suspicious chart which attempts to directly convert Pantone to RGB(!!!), without giving any details as to how the analysis was done, and which declares, I quote: "The authors of this color conversion chart offer no guarantees as to accuracy."

Which source should we trust? Am I not reasonable in proposing that we take the CMYK codes listed by FOTW as the most likely accurate conversion from reality to digital color space? --wirespot 7 jan 2005

The flag image has been updated following various discussions. It has been agreed to use the CMYK colors codes as a better approximation, as the Pantone codes produced colors that are generally considered too dark compared to the real thing. Whoever wishes to challenge the colors in the future, please discuss it first, preferrably on the image's talk page. --Wirespot 07:03, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Flag of Chad

The shade of blue on the flag of Romania obviously looks lighter from the pictures that are here on Wikipedia so for now I have corrected the text to indicate that. Leftist 05:21, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Naval ensign

According to the Romanian Ministry of National Defence, naval ensign of Romania is same as the Romanian flag: "Pavilionul navei este identic ca forma si culori cu Drapelul Romaniei". Am I right? Cyon 20:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, you are very right! But you can see a lot of naval flags of Romania, eaven at official ceremonies, about wich you can't find information! Or, you find the information about one flag (like the one of the President or Prime-Minister) but they have NEVER been used nor seen in public!!!

--ES Vic 10:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

But naval flags flown on land and naval rank flags are something entirely different from the naval ensign. Cyon 05:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Army flags

I've cleaned up the wording and organization of the army flags section. AFAIK the situation regarding army-related Romanian flags is far by proven fact and badly needs some proof.

On one hand, the war flag is undoubtfully the one showed here, as stated by the Ministry of Defence. The flag of the Land Forces is also clearly depicted on their site.

On the other hand, I haven't been able to locate any proof that the General Staff, Naval Forces or Air Forces flags are indeed the ones claimed here. I have, however, found some conflicting data. As Cyon mentioned above, the Ministry of Defence info on the War Flag states that the Naval Forces war flag is identical to the Romanian flag. However, pictures such as this show Navy people using a flag that's almost identical to the War Flag, except for anchors at the corners instead of crossed swords.

The Romanian Army Flags section at Flags of the World doesn't mention any of these, but quite some other kind of flags. :(

--wirespot 18 Sep 2006

Your confusion is natural! You think that the Naval Forces Flag is identical to the Naval Jack. Well, it is not! The Naval Jack is the ship's flag, while the flag shown here is of the unit that serves the ship. This is the Romanian tradition. ES Vic 14:20, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I've added a picture where one can clearly see the four identification flags. One can find more pictures in with these flags appear at the Official website of the Romanian Presidency. Being new flags, it is hard to find information about them. ES Vic 21:20, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to clean up a bit, if you don't mind. :) The info you added is very good, but it could be better organized. There's no need for the thumbnails to be this big. Page breaks should not be used for formatting, since they produce different effects at larger font sizes; instead, use one break tag with a "clear" attribute if you need to. --Wirespot 11:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind at all! I would be glad if you could help me with the picture copyright. I really cannot figure it out, because on the sites I've taken them from, there is nothing about copyright. At the Government official site they say (in Romanian): Va rugam ca, in cazul in care preluati spre publicare aceste fotografii, sa precizati sursa: DAPP. that is: In the case you download this pictures for publishing, please cite the source: DAAP. I guess that is the same thing for the pictures from The Presidency and The Ministry of National Defence. ES Vic 14:20, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

FIAV dot code for the flags

As you can see, the Romanian War flag is quite diferent from the national and state flag. Someone should change-add the new FIAV dot codes (or how are they named).

You can get more info on the flag(s) and Coat(s) of Arms of Romania at the Ministry of National Defence of Romania website: (1), or at the following sites, also depenting on the MND of Romania: (2); (3); national flag; coat of arms; war flag (fight flag; drapel de luptǎ) --ES Vic 10:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

There's been a discussion about the Romanian flag these days on the FOTW list. It has been made apparent that considering what we have here a "war flag" is wrong and a common mistake even for vexillologists. You can see the argument here (Yahoo registration required). There is a distinction between a war flag per-se, as in "flag used during battle conditions" and "military colors" ie. flags specific to each unit type, used only during ceremonies and such. Indeed, as presented later in that thread, I too can't seem to recall seeing such a "war flag" used during actual battle conditions where Romanian units participated -- it was always the plain Romanian flag, both on camps and on vehicles. What we have here are military colors or "war ensigns" (see the FOTW clarifications and examples). --Wirespot 06:58, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

As you can see from this link (to a Ministry of National Defence site), the flag about we are talking is a war flag. Scoaterea drapelului de lupta pentru diferite activitati si depunerea acestuia la locul de pastrare: 1) Drapelul de lupta se scoate la: solemnitatea prezentarii Drapelului de lupta; festivitatea depunerii juramantului militar; paradele trupelor; revistele de front; predarea (luarea) comenzii unitatii; darea onorurilor militare la funeraliile militare; alte ocazii, cand se ordona acest lucru. 2) Pavilionul navei se ridica zilnic la bastonul pupa la ora 08.00, iar in zilele de sarbatoare la ora 09.00. Cand nava se afla in mars, acesta ramane arborat permanent la pic la catarg. Ridicarea pavilionului navei se executa, de regula, in prezenta intregului echipaj. Coborarea pavilionului navei se face, de regula, fara adunarea echipajului, cand nava este in stationare la cheu, la ancora sau la geamandura, zilnic la ora apusului soarelui. That is in english: Taking out and re-depositing of the war flag for diferent activities: 1) The War Flag is taken out for: the solemnity of presenting the War flag; the ceremony of military oath; the troop's parade; (troop) front inspection; unit command handing-over ceremony; military honor at military funerals; other ocasions, when it is orderd to do so. 2) The Pavilion of a ship is hoisted daily at the pupa at 08:00, and in hollydays at 09:00. When the ship is at march, it remains hoisted at the main mast. The rising of the pavilion is done, usualy, in the presence of the whole crew. The lowering of the pavilion is done, usualy, without the crew, when the ship is stationary, in the quay, at anchor or at gemandurã. need help translating the last word;). Due to the war tradition, that says to guard the war flag with your life, it is not common to se the war flag everywhere the Roamnian military camp! Not to mention that, as the previous link shows, there is only one war flag for each unit. So, if you see a tank unit, you won't see on each tank a war flag hoisted! Furthermore, the war flag is not a hoistable flag. It is a flag carried by hand by a group of six solders (forming the flag guard), as it could have been seen from all the pictures I've posted and have been removed. I must admit thet the term used in Romanian is not "war flag" ("drapel de război"), but "battle flag" ("drapel de luptă"). ES Vic 15:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I've read that page myself. Nowhere in it do they mention actually using the flag during combat. I hope you'll agree that, while there's always a chance that the flag may fall into enemy hands, this doesn't prevent military units from using it! There has to be a flag used in combat. That flag will be called the war flag, and it doesn't look like this is it. Besides, the misconception of considering the "battle flag" a "war flag" has been pointed out by people who seem to know what they're talking about. I'd like to ask you to join that mailing list and ask for yourself. Otherwise, neither you nor I are experts and personally I'm willing to believe a vexillologist over an amateur. Again, the distinction is rather academical and it makes sense that it took a specialist to point it out. It doesn't matter what the "battle flag" is called in Romanian, since such names can often be misleading. Anyway, I won't edit the FIAV code anymore because I don't want to get into an edit war, but I'd like you to consider all the evidence and tell me what you think. I'd appreciate it if you didn't let this issue drag. --Wirespot 17:53, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to contact some Army Officials that could tell me what's the flag's status, and also if they could help me with some information about those identification flags as well.ES Vic 08:41, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Ask about the vertical position too. I can't remember ever seeing a battle flag actually hanged vertically, it's always on a vertical hoist. (Dipping the flag at ceremonies doesn't count.) --Wirespot 10:46, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I've send the request for the information before reading your answer, so I haven't asked them explicitly for the vertical hoist. After reading the text at this site I dear to assume that the battle flag is not vertically hoisted, at any time, due to the reason that the hoist (hampă in Romanian) is part of the battle flag. It should take no longer than 30 days to get the answer. Also I found some information here in Romanian (the last paragraph) about the national flag and the military flags/flags of the military units. I hope it is helpful! :) ES Vic 20:00, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Flag protocol

You may notice that the section of flag protocol is a copy&paste from FOTW. No reason for alarm. I have contacted the original author of the translation and obtained permission to do so. Furthermore, this is the text of a law, so according to Romanian copyright law it is automatically placed in the public domain. --Wirespot 08:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Removed Paragraph (from Army flags)

I removed the paragraph cited below, because it is untrue; The coat of arms on the yellow strip pf the Battle flag does not change with the tipe of military unit it represents. Only the emblems in the four corners change! The Coats of arms of the General staff, Land Forces General Staff, Naval Forces General Staff, and Air Force General Staff are used only on their identification flags. * The coat of arms changes the symbol and field color. The symbols are the ones described above. The field color is light blue for the Air Forces, dark blue for the Navy, red for the Land Forces. The General Staff crest is a combination of the other crests. ES Vic 20:20, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Army Identification Flags and copyright status of information from www.mapn.ro

I recieved an official answer that clarifies the description and use of the four Army Identification Flags, and the copyright status of the pictures that have been removes from this site, due to it's uncertain (at that moment) copyright. I reproduce bellow the answer recieved from the Romanian Army Public Relations Office:

in Romanian:

La solicitarea dvs.din data de 26.09.2006 va informam ca Directia Relatii Publice a intreprins demersurile necesare si a primit urmatorul raspuns de la structura competenta, Sectia Traditii Militare si Educatie Civica, pe care il punem la dispozitie mai jos:

Steagul de identificare reprezinta simbolul care promoveaza spiritul de corp si de apartenenta a structurii militare la un grup militar distinct.

Steagul de identificare se compune din hampa si flamura si are urmatoarele elemente de identificare, specifice fiecarei categorii de forte:

Steagul de identificare al Statului Major al Fortelor Terestre are flamura de culoare rosie si sustine pe avers insemnul heraldic al Fortelor Terestre, iar pe revers pe Sfantul Mare Mucenic Gheorghe, patronul spiritual al Fortelor Terestre;

- Steagul de identificare al Fortelor Navale are flamura de culoare albastra si sustine pe avers insemnul heraldic al Fortelor Navale si pe revers ocrotitoarea marinarilor – Sfanta Fecioara Maria;

- Steagul de identificare al Fortelor Aeriene are flamura de culoare bleu-albastrui si sustine pe avers insemnul heraldic al Fortelor Aeriene, iar pe revers patronul spiritual al categoriei de forte, Sfantul Mare Proroc Ilie;

- Steagul de identificare al Statului Major General are flamura de culoare galben deschis, care sustine pe avers insemnul heraldic al Statului Major General, iar pe revers patronii spirituali ai celor trei categorii de forte.

- Steagurile de identificare pot insoti structurile militare constituite din categoriile de forte amintite in tabere de instruire, aplicatii, misiuni externe si interne.

Sectia Traditii Militare si Educatie Civica nu detine imagini despre steagurile de identificare ale categoriilor de forte, altele decat cele existente deja pe site-ul Ministerului Apararii.

Referitor la statutul copy-right-ului imaginilor de pe site-ul www.mapn.ro, va informam ca, se pot reproduce materiale de pe site dar fara modificarea/trunchierea continutului si precizandu-se sursa.

in English; approximate translation:

With respect to the petition you sent us on September the ninth 2006 we inform you that the Public Relations Officie recieved from the entitled structure, The Section of Military Traditions and Civic Education, the answer provided bellow:

The identification flag represents the symbol that promotes the military corp spirit, and the belonging os a military structure to a distinct military group.

The Identification Flag is made of hoist (mast) and cloth and has the following identification elements, specifric to each force category:

- The Identification Flag of The Land Forces has the field red, charged on the front the heraldic symbol of The Land Forces, and on the reverse Saint George - the spiritual patron of The Land Forces;

- The Identification Flag of The Naval Forces has the field blue, charged on the front the heraldic symbol of The Naval Forces, and on the reverse the defender of saylors - Saint Virgin Mary;

- The Identification Flag of The Air Forces has the field light-blue, charged on the front the heraldic symbol of The Air Forces, and on the reverse the spiritual patrton of the force category - Saint Prophet Ilie;

- The Identification Flag of The General Staff has the field yellow, charged on the front the heraldic symbol of The General Staff, and on the reverse the spiritual patrons of the three forces category.

- The Identification Flags can acompany the military structures made up by the above forces category in instruction camps, military applications, axternal and internal missions.

The Section of Military Traditions and Civic Education does not have images with the identification flags of the forces category, others than the ones already existing on the website of tThe Ministry od National Defence.

Regarding the copyright status of the images on the website www.mapn.ro, we inform you that the materials on the website can be reproduced if the content is not modified/fragmented, and the source is specified.

ES Vic 14:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Flag colors

The picture is wrong, according to the numbers in the article colors should look like this:

While the colors in the current picture look like this:

It's a big difference! -- AdrianTM 13:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't say that we need to use one over the other, but the flag colors are not consistent with the numbers in the article so either the flag or the numbers are wrong. -- AdrianTM 12:31, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Not different any longer. — AdiJapan ☎ 18:04, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

6th century reference is pure fiction

The claim that the Romanian flag colours have first been mentioned in the 6th century (535 to be more exact) is clear fiction. This goes back to one single article (Tricolorul romanesc peste veacuri; in: Magazin istoric 9/1970: p. 50-51) that does not even cite its main reference properly, namely the Novella XI (11). The article's author (Marius Bizerea) claims that he has found this in the Vatican Library, but does not say exactly, if this was a manuscript (and if yes, which) or a printed edition (and if yes, which). It is pretty easy to go into a well-sorted library and find one or several printed editions of the Novellae there. Go to number 11 and read the Latin text: you do not have to understand it, you just have to search for the text mentioned ("scutum rubrum" etc.). You will not find it, as it is not there! --82.135.74.57 (talk) 11:59, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Heraldry in the form in which it is traditionally known in Europe didn't really exist until the 12th-century A.D., almost 600 years after Justinian. The first famous tricolor flag of three plain stripes (the Dutch Prinsenvlag) was adopted in 1572. And until the 18th-century, most flags were mainly used at sea or as military banners, and the concept of "national flag" as such wasn't very well developed... AnonMoos (talk) 22:14, 20 February 2008 (UTC)