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Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Small aside: Many people in the Republic of Ireland describe the flag's coloInsert non-formatted text herers as Green, White and Orange (which is technically incorrect). I'm not sure why that is -- its probably because they are denial that the Orange represents the Unionist community.
If you are talking in technical heraldic terms you can't use terms like "blue" but have to say "azure" etc. I forget what "green" would be, but I'm pretty sure white and gold are "argent" and "or". PML.
That may be generally correct but in the Irish instance, the colors are always referred to as green, white and orange, just as the Union Jack is always referred to as red, white and blue. And the Irish presidential flag is always described as Saint Patrick's Blue, not azure. JTD 22:53 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)
Also, nothing rhymes with "orange" so if it's nationalist poetry you're writing, a bit of poetic license is called for. Joestynes 09:48, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Indeed. I don't see why the issue is with Gold in poems and songs. It is green, white, and orange, however nothing rhymes with orange so gold is used instead. Mullanaphy 17:37, 04 Dec 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.165.94.180 (talk)
Shouldn't this article go into to Red Hand flag that was used in NI before 1972-73? hoshie
The following has been removed from the article because a user has questioned its accuracy. However it sounds kind of like it might be so if someone knows it is accurate please provide a source and we can put it back.
Contrary to myth, however, it was not the actual flag of the Easter Rising; that flag was in fact a green flag with the words 'Irish Republic', written in orange with white shadowing. (This flag is on display in the Kildare Street branch of the National Museum of Ireland.) The tricolour in the Rising was in fact the flag of E-Company and as such was flown over the General Post Office, Dublin (GPO), the headquarters of the Rising's leadership. Unlike the official flag, the E-Company's tricolour caught the public imagination and became the de facto flag of the Irish Republic
Actually, I'm slightly less certain what the previous editor took issue with. The essential statement in the section listed above is still on the page, namely,
Contrary to myth, however, it was not the actual flag of the Easter Rising; that flag was in fact a green flag with the words 'Irish Republic'. It became the de facto flag of the Irish Republic (1919-22).
So I'll leave it as is for now. zoney♣talk 16:42, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I don't think his concerns were about NPOV. I think he was questioning the factual accuracy of the stuff about E-Company. Lapsed Pacifist put a note on my talkpage saying he deleted it because he wanted to see a source for the sentence. That's fair enough but to me the removed sentence doesn't sound like something someone would just make up. Iota 17:30, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Green white and yellow
An anon editor included some material in the Symbolism section which suggested that people were getting confused with the colours of Offaly (Green and Yellow). I reverted it correctly, though for the wrong reason. The correct reason is that is too detailed a point that would be lost on everyone except Leinster footballers. See WP:LPOV. --Red King (talk) 14:53, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Four provinces flag image
This is not the most important disagreement we'll ever have on Wikipedia but I want to say my piece anyway. Whether the four provinces flag should remain in its original position rather than be moved so as to be precisely alligned with the "Other flags" section is an aesthetic judgement call. Pictures don't have to precisely line up with section headings and often, for stylistic reasons, it is desirable that they don't. Certainly no-one is going to be confused into thinking the four provinces flag is the St. Patrick's flag or vice-versa. When I added the image to the article I put it in the position that I thought looked best. In the absence of any strong reason to move it I don't see why another user should be allowed to impose their own aesthetic preference over the status quo. I'll not make any change to the article for the moment. Iota 17:57, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well I agree it's all rather trivial. But I think putting a picture in the section where it's discussed is a "strong reason" for moving it. I'm guessing the thing you dislike about this aesthetically is that the image is longer than the text? While not perfect, this will be corrected if future edits augment the text. On the other hand, having 2 flags together is imperfect as compared to the consistency of having all images at the left margin. I agree that minor fiddling around fine judgement-calls clutters edit histories, but in this case 2 different users have preferred the lower position and only one the higher. Joestynes 07:34, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
A new flag for Ireland?
Latest comment: 15 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion
Does anyone else fell that we should have a new flag? I'm aware of what the tricolour represents and the emotiveness of even suggesting this, but we have older (and in my view, far better) symbols for our nation than the tricolour. Also - and again, this is just me - its way too similar to that of India, Cote d'Ivorie and a few others; plus the fact that green, white and orange clash for ****** sake! It looks terrible on our sports teams! Any suggestions folks? Discussion would be welcome. Fergananim
That's nonsense. The flag has a good history behind it and a good symbolism. As can be seen in the article it dates back to 1848 ( approx. ). It also represents a good belief - peace, which I believe nobody can argue against. I may be wrong but as far as i know the Irish flag is older than the India & Cote d'Ivorie. Finally i don't see how you can think the colours look ugly on the sports teams, i think it looks good.
Why in gods name would we in Ireland want to change the national flag? Just because its similar to another country and that it looks terrible in our sports teams doesnt justify why we should change it. This is just as silly as changing the national anthem.
I'm going to suggest something here. I think it is clear that we do not need to have a new flag now. No reason for it. But I can imagine needing a new flag in future. The current flag of the Republic of Ireland has negative connotations to many people, rightly or wrongly. So let us imagine an end to partition and a new 32-county Ireland. Wouldn't the formation of that expanded State be an opportunity for a change, to a new flag, a new look? In keeping with a multi-cultural tradition I came up with the flag and banner below. Green, white, and orange are kept, but instead of the unimaginative tricolour design popularized by revolutionary France, the northwest European cross motif is used. This also hearkens to Ireland's Viking heritage.
A proposed national and merchant flag for a United Ireland
A proposed state and naval flag for a United Ireland
I think it looks nice, anyway. And a long triangular flag streamer is often flown in Nordic countries. This design would facilitate that pleasant patriotic practice. Well. It's just a thought. Evertype 15:34, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Like it. And at least it would solve the problem of trying to work out who's supporting which team in Ireland v. Italy matches :) Vilĉjo 22:41, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok, that looks pretty cool but come on now. Although the tricolor has positive and negative connotations, it represents something greater than the Nordic-style flag. It's taken from the French Revolutionary style, and Ireland struggled for independence for years. Basing a flag on Ireland's Viking heritage seems a little ridiculous to me considering most of the inland Irish don't care too much for the Vikings. Besides, Ireland's hardly a Nordic nation. Our culture is connected more to Spain than it is to the Nordic states. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.56.198.114 (talk) 06:28, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
What colour is it?
Latest comment: 15 years ago6 comments6 people in discussion
The flag of republic of ireland is Green white and GOLD, and contrary to an other discussion which states that this is technically incorrect, is in itself technically incorrect. How could the person who wrote that possibly know wheteher it was right or wrong, Unless they were taught Irish history at extensive length in school. I admit that some Irish flags appear more orange than gold but this is most likely due to poor manufacture or over use of dyes. The green and gold panels of the flag don't represent any religous groups(Catholic or Protestant), but is instead supposed to present a free Ireland, free of rule from anyone other than those who are proud and love the whole of Ireland. Also the argument about the Offaly football team having the same colour jersey as the tricolour is also technically correct.
I think it is indeed strange that this article fails to mention the "green, white, and gold". There are some who claim that the green is to represent Ireland, and the white and gold represents the Vatican. Some theories also suggest that the orange was added simply because gold was a difficult colour to print, and that the notion that orange is to represent the Williamite culture is a recent construct of political correctness. It is also quite noticible that observable Irish Tricolours have only recently seemed to standardise in recent years on the tone of orange that is used. In the past many shades from yellow to almost red were visible Jonto 23:44, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Who theorizes about the Vatican colours being a source for the Irish tricolour? Name names, Jonto, and dates. Do you have a source to cite about the difficult of "printing" gold? First, note the description in this publication of the Department of the Taoiseach where the colours are described as "uaine, bán, agus flannbhuí". Flann is an old word meaning 'blood' and buí means 'yellow'. Ó Dónaill's dictionary gives s.v. flannbhuí the definition '(Of colour) Orange.' Note the colour on the front of that publication by the Department of the Taoiseach. I don't know what colour you can call that but orange. Note the text from this Irish Government website http://www.irlgov.ie/aboutireland/eng/irstate.asp: "The National Flag is a tricolour of green, white and orange. The green represents the older Gaelic and Anglo-Norman element in the population, the orange the Protestant supporters of William of Orange, while the white represents a lasting peace between the two traditions. First flown as an emblem of the Young Ireland movement of 1848, the flag did not come into popular use until after the 1916 Rising." Note the Irish version of the same text: "An Bhratach Náisiúnta, is trídhathach í, uaine, bán agus flannbhuí. Ciallaíonn an uaine an chuid is sine den phobal, de shliocht na nGael agus na nAngla-Normannach, agus seasann an flannbhuí do lucht leanúna Protastúnach Liam Oráiste. Cuireann an bán in iúil síocháin bhuan idir an dá thraidisiún. Nochtadh an bhratach seo i gcéaduair mar shuaitheantas Ghluaiseacht Éire Óg in 1848, ach níor glacadh leis go forleathan go dtí tar éis Éirí Amach 1916. " In drafts of the Constitution, the first word chosen to describe the colour was cróchda 'saffron', replaced by órdha (órga) 'golden colour', finally replaced by flannbhuí 'orange'. (Source: Mícheál Ó Cearúil, Bunreacht na hÉireann: A study of the Irish text p. 3.) No mention of the Vatican, and no specifics about what órdha might have meant. Article 7 of Bunreacht na hÉireann states plainly: "An bhratach trí dhath .i. uaine, bán, agus flannbhuí, an suaitheantas náisiúnta. The national flag is the tricolour of green, white and orange." Facts, folks, facts. Evertype 14:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok, regarding the 'Gold' - citations please. Here's one to get the ball rolling re: 'Orange' (it's the oldest I could find on google print). It's a review of hearings to the US Congress Committee on Foreign Affairs regarding 'The Irish Question' in 1918. The last section of the page describes the colours of the Tri-Colour (Green, White and Orange) and makes a claim that it was created 125 years earlier by Wolfe Tone. Dbnull 15:10, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The "Green White and Gold" thing is a common misconception. The 1937 Constitution of Ireland is pretty explicit, as Evertype notes above. Further, the supposed link to the Vatican flag (which is in any case white and yellow), was in all likelihood introduced as Unionist propaganda. It would be interesting to include some of these misconceptions/myths in the article if anybody has any good sources. --Ryano 15:41, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The sentence about St. Patrick's flag "The flag was never accepted or popular by a majority of the Irish people, who saw it as a British invention" is not a NPOV.
FDR May 21 12:38 PM 2006 (UTC)
The "Green White and Gold" thing is NOT a common misconception. My parents are from Ireland and growing up my dad always told me the colors of the Irish flag are Green, white, and gold. In school my dad was taught it was green white and gold. Yes, the official colors may be green white and orange, but you will never hear an Irishman from the old generations say it's green, white, and orange. It's not a misconception, it's a matter of pride. It's worthy of being included in the article, depsite people saying it should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.56.198.114 (talk) 06:21, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Oh yes it is! Do you take pride in something being wrong? Ask any yob in the street and half them will say its Green, White & Gold, doesn't make them right. A group of friends (ten in all) went on skiing holiday to Stanzach in Austria in 1998. We were chatting away to some Austrians when one of them asked us what colour our flag is... a straight forward questiion one would think, the replies were embarrassing... seven out the ten said either gold/yellow, only three of us knew it was orange.
We laugh when we hear that many Americans don't know how many states are in the union or how many stars and stripes there are but this is just as embarrassing. I suppose you also believe that "Daddy Long-Legs" are "Horse Flies" as well. Check the facts.
Latest comment: 17 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Its a bit strange to place {{fact}} after "occasionally mis-identified as gold". Its of such common knowledge so as to make a citation a trivial matter and citations are not intended for these matters. I think the fact request should be removed. Ultimately if we need a citation then The National Flag, The Protocol Section, Department of the Taoiseach states:
Often different shades of yellow, instead of orange, are seen at civilian functions. This misrepresentation of the National Flag should be actively discouraged.
Gold is just a shade of yellow, and the text could be updated for this. Djegan 18:38, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
But the reference given says "Gold" it does not say "yellow".
Either give your reference or delete the entire issue ClemMcGann 21:04, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Folding
Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Anyone know the correct way to fold the Flag of Ireland?
"I am not sure if this is entirely correct but this is how I was taught to fold a Tricolour in the Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland.
Fold the orange section over on top of the white section.
Turn the flag over and fold the green section over similarly on top of the opposite side of the white section.
Fold the flag in half doubling the orange section in on top of itself, leaving the green on both sides of the remaining square.
The idea behind this specific folding pattern is so that the orange and green sections symbolically never touch. The orange section represents Protestant settlers in Ireland (there is a William of Orange connection but I am unsure as to what) and the green section represents the Catholic indigenous. Because of the conflict between the two in the past in the Republic , the white is included in the flag to represent peace, and to separate them when the flag is folded. Presumably the green section is left foremost as it is the National Colour of Ireland. I have seen the flag folded triangularly á la The Stars and Stripes, to my knowledge this is incorrect." -- http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1158607
Is this right or anyone have any other ideas? --Ablaze(talk) 15:05, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
No, it's wrong, and indeed quite against Irish Military protocol, which has the green and orange brought together. (The author also doesn't know that the national colour of Ireland is St. Patrick's blue). See section 9 of http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/eng/Historical_Information/The_National_Flag/The_National_Flag.pdf for the military tradition, though note that it's described as a tradition rather than a rule for all occasions. Generally folding the flag respectfully and with care to avoid it touching the ground is enough.
Changes
Latest comment: 17 years ago3 comments1 person in discussion
Someone reverted my recent changes on the basis that they were "BIG" and I hadn't discussed them here first. Okay then, who thinks this version is an improvement? Nobody reverted my separated-out Saint Patrick's Flag so now we have two pages discussing that. The separate one has quite a few inlinks now that I've moved them around. The other change I made was to augment the "green white and gold" info. Oh, and mention Northern Ireland flags issue which is where most of "Use in Northern Ireland" should really be. jnestorius(talk) 19:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I plan on re-adding my reverted changes in a couple of days unless someone comments otherwise here. jnestorius(talk) 23:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Latest comment: 16 years ago9 comments5 people in discussion
The image of the tricolour is used throughout Wikipedia, but are the colours, particularly the green, of the correct hue? I think possibly they aren't. Have a look at the discussion on the Flags of World website. Also, look the two versions of the image below (double-click the image). The SVG image is the one used in Wikipedia. I wonder whether we should change to the jpg image. Arcturus 23:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
The colours on the main page of this article are too dark. The green looks like a navy blue, and the orange looks like a red, which equates almost to the French flag. The colours in the image above are more correct. Can someone change the image on the main page to these colours please? I don't know how to do it. Thanks.
We shouldn't use a JPG for a flag. There might be a need to replace the SVG with another which uses the JPG colours. jnestorius(talk) 00:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
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i barely ever see a flag as pale as that?, maybe if it was outside for an age the green is taken from the leinster flag which was used as irelands flag in the past,
i would put forward this example as a much closer approximation just as seen in the heritage article [1]or on the new irish rugby jersey,
yes but look at every real! flag present in the article and compare it to the colouring pen version created(its just some civil servant numpty who wrote the article it is not by any means sacrosanct.
wikipedia should go by what flag colours are most used in the country even by the taoiseach look at the flags on the mercedes the irish EU flag etc they all correspond to the one i showed not the colouring pen version used in the that pretty poor articleCaomhan27 17:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I think the Irish Government has a right to specify the proper colours for the nations flag rather then what flag makers use.--padraig 17:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Do we trust the Dept. of The Taoiseach or a sweatshop in Asia? As to photos of flags here or elsewhere - forget it! Most photos need to be adjusted to be displayed properly on a computer screen. Sports jerseys? Show me where the IRFU or the FAI or whooever said they'd be basing their shirt colour on the flag colour? Even if they had - materials, sweat, etc., will all cause colour variation. In any case - changing the colours is original research. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 18:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
The government department article as stated is simply a GUIDELINE, in which a person/s in the department was asked to write a little article on the flag, it is not to be taken as gospel.
I trust what i see with my eyes which reflect the pictures i have shown and the colours used in wiki articles flag are not those which are the most used in ireland today
but even going by it The green should be PMS 347(dark green as stated), and the orange should be PMS 151.[1]
does the green look dark nope
Surely if you guys live in ireland you will agree that the version of the flag shown in wiki is virtually non existent thats what should really count, its far more important than a simply guidline article, , and this technical jargon is pointless
you wont see the flag portrayed as irelands in wiki anywhere on irelands goverment buildings vehicles etc the actual real life flag that flys over the government buildings and dont give me it looks different on the computer it does not i have seen it
The blue sky in that picture is very dark - what time of the day was the photo taken? Had it rained at all earlier? How long since the flag had been washed? Yes, I can, and have, seen "darker" flags than the wiki version flying in Ireland. But then I can, and have, also seen much "lighter" versions. Anyway - WP:NOR and WP:VER. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 11:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
yes the temperature was slightly elevated above norm aswell geesh..
So it seems it all boils down to that guideline article no matter what,
again Encyclopedia Britannica' version [2]
FIFA's flag for ireland looks like such [3]
so many contradictions,
oh and please stop showing rules WP:IGNORECaomhan27 20:23, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Why so many flags?
Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Surely there should be a specific article describing the flag of the republic of ireland solely, and this should be linked directly from the republic of ireland page. A separate article should be used to discuss the various flags used throughout the island. As this page is linked from the Republic of Ireland page, it should only contain our national flag. Furthermore, the colours, particularly the green are blatantly incorrect.
User:Ali-oops created an SVG file (see above image) but I'm not sure if she merely converted the jpg or started from scratch. In any event, maybe someone should convert the jpg to svg while trying to maintain the colours as shown above. I don't have the s/w to do it, does anyone? I'm reasonably certain the above colours are correct and the version as currently used throughout Wikipedia is wrong. Arcturus 19:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
History
Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
I've done a bit of work on a separate history section and have included references to sources. However, they seem to contradict one another when referring to the Irish Free State period. I've left the following paragraph in the article but it is not satisfactory:
Associated with separatism in the past, flown during the Easter Rising of 1916 and capturing the national imagination as the banner of the new revolutionary Ireland, the tricolour came to be acclaimed throughout the country as somewhat of a national flag. To many Irish people, though, it was considered to be a "Sinn Fein flag".[11] It was used by the government in the Irish Free State, but not necessarily with the intention that it should become the national flag:[4]
The government in Ireland have taken over the so called Free State Flag in order to forestall its use by republican element and avoid legislative regulation, to leave them free to adopt a more suitable emblem later.[12]
It continued to be used during the period between 1922 and 1937. However, its use was almost entirely confined to the territory of the Irish Free State.[4] In 1937, its position as the national flag was formally confirmed by the new Constitution of Ireland.[7]
Maybe somebody else could have a look and reconcile the contradicting sources? Cheers. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 06:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Some things worth including
Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
I feel it would be worth including the following:
A protocol section. This outlines the main guidelines and procedures for those using the flag.
A photo. Surely someone has a photo of the flag.
Interpretations of the meaning of the colours. This should help. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 06:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
"Precise" colours
Latest comment: 15 years ago13 comments3 people in discussion
I think its misleading and inaccurate to state the RGB and CMYK values given in this article are "precise". The document specifying the colours from the Department of the Taoiseach here doesn't mention RGB or CMYK values and as the debate in Flags of the world (if link is broken try here )shows there are possible variations. And I don't think that Flags of the world can define the "precise" RGB and CMYK colours either if thats whats implied. The only "precise" colours are the Pantone colours given by the Department of the Taoiseach. I also think there isn't any need to use web safe colours when 'translating' the specific Pantone colours as given by the Dpt of the Taoiseach, as was the case when flags of the world came to their preferred colours--Trounce 17:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps for the RGB and CMYK colours it would be better to say something like "by consensus these are the prefered colours for use on Wikipedia" or something along those lines.
Also, if the "precise" colours were correct why are the RGB colours used in the SVG image of the flag in the flag infobox different to the "precise" colours as stated in the article? SVG flag green is 0-158-96 where as the alleged "precise" colour is 0-153-102. SVG flag orange is 247-127-0 where the alleged "precise" is 255-102-0. :---Trounce 11:45, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
The colour values given are incorrect for the, the pantone values are correct but:
Green pantone 347 is CYMK 100-0-86-3 and RGB Hex of #00f723
Orange Pantone 151 is CYMK 0-48-95-0 and RGB Hex of #ff850d according to this [4].--padraig3uk 19:19, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
According to Adobe Illustrator CS2 when the Spot Color option is set to "Use CMYK values from the manufacturer's process books"
it defines Pantone 151 (solid uncoated) as CMYK 0,48,95,0 (orange)
and it defines Pantone 347 (solid uncoated) as CMYK 100,0,86,3 (green)
It does warn that "the results will only give a reasonable match to the actual [Pantone] inks if printing under the conditions recommended by the manufacturer."
The Spot Color Option of Illustrator also give the choice to "Use the Lab values specified by the book manufacturer[Pantone]". It says "Use this to get the best possible match to the actual spot ink when spot colors are converted to process as part of a color-calibrated workflow."
which defines Pantone 151U (uncoated) as RGB 255,130,61 (which = Hex FF823D)
and it defines Pantone 347U (uncoated) as RGB 0,154,99 (which = Hex009A63)
As a result I think the most accurate 'translations' from the precise Pantone colours are:
ORANGE:PANTONE 151
For video dispaly use Pantone 151 = RGB 255,130,61 = Hex FF823D
for print use Pantone 151 = CMYK 0,48,95,0
GREEN:PANTONE 347
For video display use Pantone 347 = RGB 0,154,99 = Hex 009A63
With a reference to this discussion --Trounce 10:55, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I have one problem with that you have given the same CMYK value for both colours, the Green one is wrong.--padraig3uk 14:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Just testing to see if you were awake! ...Sorry about that. I have fixed the mistakes above. (The mistake was the green CMYK. It should have been 100-0-86-3.)--Trounce 15:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
RE:CMYK values. Just to clarify, the CMYK colours given here came from a different definition than the RGB/Hex colours (see above). If the RGB/Hex colours here were translated in an imaging application (like Illustrator or Inkscape) to CMYK the results would be different.--Trounce 19:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
For the record I changed the colors in SVG image of the flag to match the above RGB/Hex colors.--Trounce 20:09, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I noticed the post at the Commons Graphics Lab and followed the links here to see if I could "shed some light". No, there is no way of exactly translating Pantone colours into CMYK or RGB; the result of any attempt to do this would depend on the individual equipment used. The best bet is probably to go for the RGB values used by the Department of the Taoiseach at [5]. This gives RGB values as:
That link to the Dpt of Taoiseach doesn't give any specific RGB color information. It only gives Pantone info. I would be very hesitant to use the colors in the embedded flag image in the PDF as the production values in the document are pretty crap to say the least.--Trounce 20:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
For the record uncoated (pantone) is used because it is closest to mat fabric. (Coated is for glossy paper stock)--Trounce (talk) 19:17, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Wrong title for this page
Latest comment: 15 years ago62 comments16 people in discussion
Ireland is an island and this flag does not apply to the entire island. This article should be called Flag of the Republic of Ireland or Irish Republic Flag, or Flag of Eire. It is not the flag of Ireland, as such, and this is misleading. David Lauder 19:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I strongly agree, SqueakBox 19:37, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
And you two totally impartial editors have no axe to grind. You do know how ridiculous you sound. And before you get all offended, save it! Dose not work with me!--Domer48 19:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Attacking editors rather than focussing on content indicates you dont have an argument, pleasse do focus ont he argument and not on editors. The concern is that Ireland and RoI are clearly different entities, please address this, SqueakBox 20:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I have no idea who User:Domer48 is, nor do I have an axe to grind. What an odd accusation. I don't think I have ever edited a contentious page related to Ireland, Republic or Ulster, and you will note I have done nothing here other than make a valid point that this is not the legal flag for the entire island of Ireland and should not therefore be entitled as such. David Lauder 20:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Legal, valid, Verified and offical! --Domer48 20:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
No one is saying it is the legal flag for the entire island of Ireland it is the flag of a state named funnily enough Ireland --BarryobVigeur de dessus 20:17, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
No, in wikipedia its called the Republic of Ireland and Ireland refers specifically to the Island which contains 2 soveriegn states, if you want to change the names of the articles about RoI and Ireland please do so but according to our current naming the name of this article is clearly wrong, SqueakBox 20:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
This article is correctly titled, there is no reason to move, as it uses the legal title of the Irish state.--padraig3uk 20:52, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Well move RoI to Ireland then (actually I would dispute that too), SqueakBox 20:54, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I am not impressed that SqueakBox moved this page name without building a concensus and especially when there was an ongoing discussion.--Vintagekits 20:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree. A contentious move like this needed a better consensus than this. I'm putting it back meantime; please try to build a consensus before moving it again from a stable location. --John 21:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
IMO your first link absolutely confirms my belief that the article is badly named while the second article doesnt contain the word flag, SqueakBox 23:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
If editors read the following link, it becomes quite clear, the flag of Ireland is the tri-colour. Regards
I see SqueakBox has now tagged the article, dispite the fact that there is already a discussion here.--padraig3uk 22:35, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
The discussion and the tag should go together, they are not antithetical, lets keep the tag tillt he dispute is resoved please, SqueakBox 23:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Should I point out that most of this article refers to pre-partition when the Republic of Ireland didnt even exist so this whole argument is pretty redundant! If you want we could have a separate article on the Irish tricolour/Flag of the Repulic of Ireland.--Vintagekits 22:59, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I certainly wouldnt oppose a name change based on what you say, ie not to Flag of the Republic of Ireland but to another title such as the Irish tricolour, SqueakBox 23:05, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Precedent on Wikipedia would seem to be against that move. The names of articles on national flags are in the format Flag of (Name of country). And, for example, the French Tricoleur redirects to Flag of FranceFlowerpotmaN (t · c) 00:53, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
This a problem that has arisen, because in the past, some Irish editors, "went with" allowing the sovereign state of Ireland, to be named by it's political description, i.e. Republic of Ireland. ROI is a mere description of the type of politique that is operated in the sovereign state of Ireland. Give a mile, and some editors will want another 10 miles. Gold♥ 23:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Well open the discussion on the relevant pages. Where RoI to be moved, for instance to Ireland (state) or Ireland moved to Ireland (island) this article would then be well named, or better still move both articles and make Ireland into a disambig page. That would be a step towards resolving the dispute here, SqueakBox 23:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
The flag is commonly called the "flag of Ireland" - thats its most common name - alternatives like "Flag of the Republic of Ireland" (quite uncommon) or "Irish Republic Flag" (their has not been a state called "Irish Republic" for nearly a century, read some history!), or "Flag of Eire" (sorry this is the English wiki and "Eire" (sic) is an Irish name, in any case we are not in the business of manufacturing names!). Flags do not only relate to political systems, they are also cultural. But shall we, for the sake of slavish confirmance, also move President of Ireland to a new title? I think not. See talk:Republic of Ireland for a long history of this type of discussion. Djegan 23:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually, there is no such place called The Republic of Ireland. It's merely a political description of sovereign Ireland. NI has province status within UK Gold♥ 23:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Ireland is an island containing what we call RoI here (Eire etc) and NI, SqueakBox 23:44, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
SqueakBox The Tricolour was used before 1916 by Republicans, you edit is incorrect.--padraig3uk 23:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Well the current (ie previous) version doesnt make sense. The national flag of whom exactly? SqueakBox 23:52, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Very quick google (i am not saying numbers endorse - but they are a good indication of the usage before we move it because "i have nothing better to do than misinformed and wrecklessly press the "move" button"):
"i have nothing better to do than misinformed and wrecklessly press the "move" button", please remian WP:Civil, SqueakBox 23:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
That is not an aqusation. Djegan 00:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Fokes lets remember here, as well, the fundemental question is the name of the object discussed in the article (i.e. the flag) not the name of the state which it primarily represents! We ARE NOT in the business of contriving and manufacturing names that suite cultural, political, religious, etc beliefs and systems. The question is "what is the name of the flag", not "what is the name of the nation/state". Djegan 23:54, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Well there are number of flags of Ireland, SqueakBox 23:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
This article is called Flag of Ireland (note the singular), whilst "flags of Ireland" (note the plural) is entirely different thing. Do you understand the difference between singular and plural? Djegan 00:04, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Please calm down, SqueakBox 00:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I am very claim, its not like I am hitting out, come on now! Djegan 00:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Asking rhetorical questions that imply the person being asked is incredibly stupid are either not calm or made in bad faith, SqueakBox 00:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Since you mentioned WP:Civil, do you have a point to make on the content? Lets comment on the content not each other. Thanks. Djegan 00:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I support David's view that this article is wrongly named as it implies that the tricolour is the flag for the whole island of Ireland, SqueakBox 00:21, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
No dispute there, SqueakBox 00:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Just looking at the comments here. Polls don't count. (I seem to recall an awful lot of people polled in favour of a despot in Germany in 1933. Did that make them right?) There is no Flag of Ireland. That is a legal fact. You have to decide whether or not Wikipedia is a vehicle for personal opinions or those pushing a political agenda, or not. The flag spoken of in the article has been adopted as the nation-state flag of the Republic (or, if you like, Eire). And that, really, is it. The title of the page should reflect that, not a fiction. David Lauder 08:38, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
The Irish Government see the Tri-Colour the Flag of Ireland. [8] so what should the flag be? --Domer48 09:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
There is a flag of Ireland and it is very much legal Articles 4 and 7 of the Constitution of Ireland make this clear The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland. and The national flag is the tricolour of green, white and orange. --BarryobVigeur de dessus 10:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
The government of the Irish Republic (as it signed itself in the Anglo-Irish Agreements) have amended their constitution, dropping their claim of sovereignty over Northern Ireland. Personally I couldn't care less about all this Irish infighting. All I am saying is it is not legally or internationally recognised as the Flag of all of the island of Ireland and the title should reflect that. David Lauder 10:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
But David I think you do care about all this Irish infighting! [9]. Who created the discussion?I resent you characterisation of the participants in this discussion, and consider it validates my initial response! --Domer48 11:56, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Nobody is saying the flag is the flag of the entire island, however "Flag of Ireland" is the correct and legal name. We aren't moving President of Ireland to suit your whims as well, as like "Flag of Ireland" that is the correct name. As the article also covers pre-independence, Ireland is the term that must be used.--Domer48 12:08, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
"Personally I couldn't care less about all this Irish infighting." -- the editor is showing his true colours here, the editors choice of words here demonstrates that neutrality and evenhandedness, in this discussion, are not among his attributes. Djegan 12:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I have no Irish connexions at all. I am just stating the obvious. You are a little too touchy. David Lauder 12:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Of course Dave is fair and neutral when it comes to Irish republicanism....
Well I think that when you mention the birth of Nazi Germany and the Flag of Ireland in the same sentence your hardly convincing as "fair and neutral" -- rather its "absurd". Djegan 12:48, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Dave, "I seem to recall an awful lot of people polled in favour of a despot in Germany in 1933. Did that make them right?" - I also seem to recall an awful lot of people polled in favour of a despot in England in 1979. Did that make them right? --Domer48 12:55, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Dave, I resent the accusation and implication in your comment! [10] A bit of honesty would not go amiss here. While I consider our conversation here, [11], to be very amicable, I have grave differences with you one the Flag page. Two separate issues, two separate approaches. Do not misrepresent me in such a way. A bit of courtesy, respect for difference, and above all, a bit of honesty! --Domer48 14:17, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Just to re-state what seems to have been touched upon; the political/constitutional name of the state in question is "Ireland" (which also happens to refer to the geographical entity that is the island as a whole, but I do not feel that that is relevant here). The term "Republic of Ireland" arose, via legislation, as a description (and is not an official title) of the state. Thus, it would naturally follow that the flag's title is the "Flag of Ireland" and, similarly, the current title of the article is entirely correct. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 18:10, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
There is no need to change the title of this article. When SqueakBox says, in his posting on the Admin noticeboard, that the name of the state is Republic of Ireland and the name of the island is Ireland he is of course only referring to the names of the Wikipedia articles and NOT to the legal names, but maybe he forgets that. Ireland is in a curious and unique situation where the name of the state and the island, of which it is part, are one and the same word. This has caused some disagreements in naming the article about the state, but that argument does not apply here. The flag described is the one for the state and the official name of the state, in English, is Ireland and if you want to link to the state fo that flag, you will wikilink to the article named Republic of Ireland. Deciding to name the Wikipedia article for the state by its constitutional description as Republic of Ireland has no bearing here and in it very first sentence clarifies the naming issue. Just keep the current name of this flag article. It is accurate. ww2censor 23:11, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
The encyclopaedia is being hi-jacked by sectarianism, calling this "The Flag of Ireland". Besides the historical inaccuracy (the RoI no longer claims territory of another sovereign nation), we're making a fundamental mistake choosing the path that offends a minority. Supporters of calling it the "Flag of Ireland" have to work at getting consensus, not pretend it's been achieved, when it plainly has not. PalestineRemembered 16:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
The page should be moved. The Republic of Ireland is the soverign state, and Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom. They just happen to share an island called Ireland. The flag of the republic of ireland is only used for the republic of Ireland, which does not encompass the entire ISLAND of Ireland. Also, there is no need to move the president of ireland or national academy of whatever of Ireland to pages that have teh republic of ireland in their name. Only the Republic of Ireland is a sovereign state. Northen Ireland does not have its own political leader at the international level nor does it have any national academies since it is not a nation. Move it. --Patar knight 01:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
It says in the article that the flag was intended for the entire island. This was while the Republic of Ireland maintained a "constitutional claim" over the north. This claim was removed as part of the Good Friday Agreement. Therefore, before 1998, the flag was the flag of the whole island of Ireland. Since 1998, it is not so certain. The answer to one question will settle the debate for Wikipedia users: "Does the removal of the "constitutional claim" remove the flag's representation for the north?". Bear in mind that in 1998, Irish nationalists were given the right to choose if they were to have Irish nationality. 79.184.8.184 (talk) 17:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
See the more recent discussion at the bottom of this page (#Union flag). Scolaire (talk) 07:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Suggestion
Latest comment: 16 years ago15 comments6 people in discussion
Irish Tricolour- flag in the context of Irish history, Irish nationalism and republicanism, use by Celtic FC fans etc etc etc
Rationale: splits the two topics to acceptable limits and areas
Precedents: Union Flag and Flag of the United Kingdom
Other: ensures we have a Flag of X for every country
On reading WP:NPOV#Article_naming that (two articles, a pov fork) would be forbidden. Djegan 15:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Precedent: UK example Astrotrain 15:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Astrotrain the name of the State is 'Ireland' not Republic of Ireland which is only a discription of the form of government, the article as it stands is correctly titled.--padraig3uk 15:08, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely not Astrotrain. Flag of Ireland is the correct and legal name ;)--Domer48 15:10, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Why don't we consider the proposal without the name implication, which is partially redundant because the country is already at Republic of Ireland. I don't really care to be honest and I generally use Ireland (eg I created List of Irish flags) Astrotrain 15:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Well personally I am not bitter at all and am not sure what bitterness has to do with this, SqueakBox 15:18, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I have considered the proposal, and it has no merit, the article is correctly titled, as for the Republic of Ireland article that should be moved.--padraig3uk 15:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Their is a lot of merit in that (moving Republic of Ireland). Too many arguements have been made here that "Flag of Ireland" is a made-up term, forced here by a minority, even when the constitution of a soverign state gives very clear endorsement of it by naming the state, in English, simply "Ireland". Djegan 15:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Sounds okay to me as I would have thought that the state is more notable than the island but you cant get consensus here, only on the talk RoI and Ireland pages, please make the suggestion there and then if that gets agreed to I'll remove the POV tag here, SqueakBox 16:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Proposal
Latest comment: 16 years ago7 comments5 people in discussion
That's an idiotic idea, dragging the encyclopaedia into a violent sectarian mess. It's never very easy to think of exact analogy - but consider an article on a subject that includes both Mexicans and citizens of the US, but then entitling it with something likw "Americans believe XXXXX". That would be highly offensive to patriotic Mexicans. The project must not go down such a road towards madness. PalestineRemembered 16:43, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
This is the fourth place that you have either called this "sectarian" or based on a "terrorism worse than 9/11" - can you please explain what these comments have to do with this discussion or stop using such emotive language as I consider it bordering on uncivil and trolling!--Vintagekits 16:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Agree Vintagekit. The language is disproportionate. Djegan 16:51, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Ireland is the name of the island, not the country. --Patar knight 01:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Ireland is the name of the Island and the 26 county state.--padraig3uk 03:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
What I meant to say is that Ireland should be the name of the article for the island, not the country, for POV reasons. --Patar knight 23:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Someone has been messing around with it, appearing a question mark throughout a multitude of articles. Londo06 14:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Meaning of the flag
Latest comment: 16 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion
Thomas Francis Meagher stated "The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between the 'Orange' and the 'Green', and I trust that beneath its folds the hands of the Irish Protestant and the Irish Catholic may be clasped in generous and heroic brotherhood."
Saying that the colour orange in the flag is to do with William of Orange is not true. Protestants are not all supporters of William of Orange.
Thomas Francis Meagher stated "The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between the 'Orange' and the 'Green', and I trust that beneath its folds the hands of the Irish Protestant and the Irish Catholic may be clasped in generous and heroic brotherhood."
Really he means peace in general for the Protestant and Catholic community. I don't think using William of Orange as why he choose the colour orange for the flag is fair.
Latest comment: 16 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
I just checked out the source for the Pantone colours, and it seems terribly vague--- are the colours referenced, coated or uncoated? Not that it should be using print specs for what is a TEXTILE artifact, but still. ButterStick (talk) 11:11, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I was just wondering why are you taking Pantone uncoated colours instead of coated?? They give very different results.
Uncoated: #009A64#FFFFFF#FF823D
Coated: #009543#FFFFFF#FF7300 Xagasi (talk) 12:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Is the Flag of the Republic
Latest comment: 16 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
This is the flag of the Republic of Ireland - given the ambiguity of the word 'Ireland' the article in its current state is not meeting NPOV credentials, as to suggest that it is the flag of the entire island is highly controversial indeed, and would not be agreed by by the majority of the Northern Irish population. Jonto (talk) 23:10, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
What piece of land is symbolised by the flag is ambiguous. What piece of land is denoted by the term "Ireland" is also ambiguous. The ambiguities and attendant controversies parallel each other: to my mind, that makes the article's current title appropriate. "Ireland" is the official name of the state, so the title is not technically inaccurate. I agree that Unionists may well dislike and disagree with the terminology; however, by the same token, "Flag of the Republic of Ireland" would offend many Nationalists and represent the opposite POV, even though it is also accurate. jnestorius(talk) 16:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Union flag
Latest comment: 15 years ago9 comments5 people in discussion
I fail to see why the entire paragraph about the Union flag on Local Government premises in Northern Ireland is there. How is a section of such length on the Union Flag Germain to an article on the Tricolour? Its a matter for Northern Ireland flags issue.Traditional unionist (talk) 21:35, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I would suggest Flag of Ireland, (republic of) which would help clarify the point that it is not and never has been, the flag of the whole island. The only flag I know of which has been is the Cross of St. Patrick. Acorn897 (talk) 02:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
How about moving to Flags of Ireland? Seeing as there is no single Flag of Ireland. Christopedia (talk) 09:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Those two suggestions in conjunction with eachother make good sense.Traditional unionist (talk) 09:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Please remember that any move request should be firstly confirmed by a WP:RM. Djegan (talk) 10:22, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be controversial and a formal move request would be required. Djegan (talk) 10:29, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
You know what I meant. What do you think about the issues discussed?Traditional unionist (talk) 10:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Nothing in Ireland is straightforward. Just about anything you can say will be opposed by one section of the community. Certain conventions have grown up on Wikipedia, some by agreement, some by default, and by no means all favouring one POV, and it's wise to leave things as they are unless you can put a compelling reason for changing them. One example, alluded to by jnestorius above, is the use of "Republic of Ireland" for a state whose official name is "Ireland", and parallel to that, the piping of "ROI" to "Ireland" in certain cases.
In the case of the flag, I think it's true to say that the great majority of the people of the Republic see it, not as the flag of that state, but as the flag of Ireland, and a very large minority in Northern Ireland see it, not as the flag of a neighbouring state, but as the flag of Ireland, a sentiment that has been officially recognised in the Good Friday Agreement and since then. To call it by any other name would therefore be seen as wrong by just about everybody who gives their allegiance to that flag. I would therefore strongly favour keeping the status quo. Scolaire (talk) 14:13, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Intro
Latest comment: 15 years ago24 comments6 people in discussion
It highlights its the state its talking about while also keeping the accuracy of using the right name.ThatsGrand (talk) 15:52, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
I favour retaining the current wording. The title of the article - which is the most prominent usage - uses "Ireland", so it is reasonable to disambiguate in the intro by clarifying that it is actually only the flag of the Republic. Mooretwin (talk) 12:51, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Ok fair enough.ThatsGrand (talk) 13:03, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
No dab is required, just google flag of ireland and look at the images. It is the commonname. ROI is not a name.78.16.192.160 (talk) 23:09, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
You've just broken a consensus. The title of the article says "Flag of Ireland" - it's essential therefore to clarify that the flag does not represent Ireland, but only ROI. Otherwise misleading. (Also, get a user name). Mooretwin (talk) 23:11, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
What consensus? Two editors doesn't equal consensus. The intro clarifies everything. Changing the name of the state in this case is wrong and inaccurate.Watchlistac (talk) 23:14, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
The consensus that you see above. Two editors with opposing views came to agreement. Your intervention (assuming you are the Anon.) doesn't make a consensus either. The intro clarifies nothing - it is ambiguous as it does not explain that the flag is not, in fact, the flag of Ireland, but merely that of the Republic. Changint the name would neither be wrong nor inaccurate: it would be correct and accurate. Mooretwin (talk) 23:17, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
One of those, looking now, was a sock, his opinion is invalid imo. It is the flag of Ireland as thats the name of the state it represents. The intro clarifies everything in the second paragraph, changing the name of the state is wrong.Watchlistac (talk) 23:27, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
The "name" of the state is a misnomer, better therefore to use "description" of state, which is unambiguous. Mooretwin (talk) 23:54, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
The fact that you find the name of the state is a misnomer is your problem and your POV. There are many names which are misnomers yet we still use them. This is no different. This is an encyclopedia of fact not personal opinions.Watchlistac (talk) 23:56, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
The name is a misnomer (it's called Ireland yet has jurisdiction over only part of Ireland). It's not my problem, nor is it POV. Wiki policy is to use Republic of Ireland. The name of the article is even called that. Mooretwin (talk) 23:59, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Wiki policy is to pipelink to show the correct name. I just checked there.So don't give me that.
It's not. That policy relates only to placenames. Mooretwin (talk) 00:12, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Read the talk page at ROI, its where I looked.
Northen Ireland is an inaccurate name too, you don't see people trying to change its name to s description. Names are names. Drop this POV and acccept the facts.Watchlistac (talk) 00:07, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
There is no other entity called Northern Ireland other than ... Northern Ireland. SO there's no ambiguity. The same can't be said for Ireland. That's fact. Not POV. Mooretwin (talk) 00:11, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Since when is an island an entity? If an island is why can't an area be or a peninsula etc.
The name is Ireland not ROI, it is explained in the intro who it relates to, there is no confusion, you are trying to change the name which will just confuse people more. There is consensus to change it to your pov. You are fighting a one man battle. I'd put your efforts elsewhere.Watchlistac (talk) 00:20, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Islands have been entities since the formation of the continents, I guess. And I'm sure areas and peninsulas can be entities, too. Using Republic of Ireland will not confuse people (how could it?), whereas the risk of confusion by using "Ireland" to mean the Republic in an article about the whole island, is surely obvious. Mooretwin (talk) 08:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Areas are entities too? Then you've proved NI is a misnomer of a name too. There goes that argument. Republic of Ireland will confuse people because its not used internationally the way Ireland is to be the name of the state. ROI is not a name and should not be presented as such. That's that imo.78.16.22.33 (talk) 09:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid the above comment doesn't appear to make sense. Mooretwin (talk) 22:27, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Could someone change the intro so that it says ROI - I tried, but a sock reverted and I'll end up getting banned if I change it again. Mooretwin (talk) 22:55, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
The sock(s) are at their work here. Mooretwin (talk) 19:01, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
How many times in how many places do we have to say this. The name of the state is Ireland. It has been so for over 70 years. It is accepted as such everywhere in the world except in the UK (though HMG accepts it - see Belfast Agreement). Islands do not have flags, only states do - so there is no ambiguity. The fact that many editors keep repeating these simple facts does not mean we are sockpuppets. Look at my edit history. --Red King (talk) 19:42, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
How many times in how many places do you have to be reminded that no-one's disputing that the "official name" is "Ireland" - the point is that the "official name" is a misnomer and disambiguation is required because "Ireland" is misleading. Mooretwin (talk) 19:50, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Anons/socks are at work reverting to "Ireland", even though the title of the article requires clarity in the intro that the flag relates only to the Republic. I've been targeted in the past by socks and goaded into 3RR, so I'll let it lie for the time being. We know the official "name" is "Ireland", but it is amiguous and the official "description" is therefore more appropriate. Mooretwin (talk) 13:09, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Anon/sock has reverted again, yet I have been effectively banned from editing. Seems if you stay anonymous you get to "edit war", but those who are registered get punished. The anon/sock wins.
I leave it to the integrity of other posters to fix this article. The title is "Flag of Ireland" - it is only reasonable that the intro clarifies that it relates only to the Republic. What's the big deal?
Mooretwin (talk) 20:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
1st Requested move (succeeded)
Latest comment: 15 years ago20 comments14 people in discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please leave it alone. Please just leave it alone. Ta. -- Evertype·✆ 20:00, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Do not move. I have never, ever, heard anyone call it the Flag of the Republic of Ireland. Moreover it is not ambiguous; Ireland is the official English language version of Eire and is what the country is known by; Northern Ireland, or Ulster, is not confused with Eire and is never referred to as Ireland. Ex nihil (talk) 05:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Exnihil's personal hearings are irrelevant, and "Ireland" is ambiguous as it is an island, only part of which is inhabited by the state calling itself by the same name. Mooretwin (talk) 16:36, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Get over it. There will not be consensus for moving this article. -- Evertype·✆ 20:52, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose the flag is more than a flag of a state; it is the flag of a people. Djegan (talk) 23:02, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, Ireland is an island, not a people, so maybe you want to change the title to "Flag of the Irish nationalist people"? Mooretwin (talk) 07:13, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
That is almost impossible to prove to wp standards. Abstract theories generally are.Traditional unionist (talk) 23:10, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Support move: As this is the flag of the sovereign state and not of the island, I support moving it to the Flag of the Republic of Ireland (which is also a perfectly valid and recognised title for Ireland). I can understand some of the opposes, but I believe that this article should conform to the decision already made at Republic of Ireland. I do not know where User:Ex nihil hails from, but where I live, RoI is in standard usage, as it is necessary to disambiguate between the two countries sharing the island. (Btw, Mooretwin, you placed a comment stating "I agree" beneath a "Do not move" comment. It was not until I read all of your comment that I realised you were actually disagreeing. Perhaps you would like to make your position more clear?) Maedin\talk 17:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Support - the name is ambiguous given Ireland generally refers to the isle which traditionally has used the Saint Patrick's Cross. 71.106.182.162 (talk) 21:31, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Support. "Ireland" may be shorthand for "Republic of Ireland" in some contexts, but in others its innate ambiguity prevents such usage. Anonymous's reference to Saint Patrick's Cross is especially apt here. After all, what Irish flag was it that was incorporated into the Union Jack? Srnec (talk) 05:24, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Not productive comment: The Fedral Republic of Germany (my now not longer seperated home country) is called Germany, former West Germany in wikipedia (never an official title). I think in this debate is an awful great portion of POV. This will not be resolved, as long as there are so different positions. <irony on>My opinion is to put the same article under both names</irony off>. Greetings Sebastian scha. (talk) 05:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Even so, "Germany" has only one referent today. Ireland has at least two: a country and an island. Srnec (talk) 06:01, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Hm, there will be some poeple who disagree with you. Germany is sometimes referred to all German speaking areas ... but back to the flag of ireland, the template {flags in europe} states Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Personnaly I can't see a reason not to name the article flag of the repblic of ireland, because it's a national emblem. But I do't want to see myself involved in such an issue, so I only commented. Sebastian scha. (talk) 08:00, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose instead rewrite the intro. The article already covers several flags of Ireland. 70.51.8.75 (talk) 05:35, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Right decision
Latest comment: 15 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
We should remember that the official adoption emerged in our 1937 Constitution; and the English-language preamble of the Constitution referred to "We the people of Eire" - whether as state or island or both (or just aspirational). Since 1948 Eire has been given the "designation" in English of "Republic of Ireland", to distinguish itself from Northern Ireland, and this is the English-language part of wikipedia.
As most Irish Protestants have had nothing to do with the Orange Order since 1795, who asked them to accept orange as "their" colour?86.42.210.255 (talk) 12:43, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
I've written a clarification on this previously on the Talk:Republic of Ireland page, with the correct facts. What you've written above is seriously inaccurate. --HighKing (talk) 21:59, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
2nd Requested move (succeeded)
Latest comment: 15 years ago271 comments48 people in discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result was move. As I always do when closing contentious discussions, I started with a raw !vote count, which came us as 27 in favour of the move and 14 opposed. I then took a look through the discussion to see if these totals appeared to be skewed by puppetry or canvassing, and found no evidence that they were. A 2/3 vote in a discussion not skewed by any untoward tactics is very close to a consensus, but I still had to consider the quality of the arguments. First of all I provisionally disregarded the !votes that weren't attached to any kind of argument at all, not even a "per X". There were not many of these on either side, and taking them out of the equation didn't change the proportions appreciably. The final step was to analyze the merits of the arguments that were made, and I believe that neither side had a monopoly on either coherence of nonsense. To begin with those favouring the move: it is not appropriate to use the government of Ireland as a source for a flag of an island when that government only exercises sovereignty over a portion of that island. It may well be that this flag is "the flag of a country and nation; it is the flag of a culture and people", but if you're going to maintain that you'll have to provide a source that is authoritative on the subject of the Irish country, nation, culture, and people, which the government of Ireland is not. As for those opposing the move, please note that a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. I presume that we can agree that the proper name of the island is Ireland, and that the proper name of the state is also Ireland. Obviously both cannot occupy the same article space, since they are distinct topics, so the former has been relocated to Republic of Ireland. So far so good. A major argument of the anti-move camp seems to be that we should use the state's page location, Republic of Ireland, as the starting point for the location of this article. I cannot accept that; consider what would happen if the state's article were (quite reasonably) located at Ireland (state). Would we then be obligated to locate this article at Flag of Ireland (state)? I don't believe that any reasonable person would argue that that is so. Instead, the starting point should always be some combination of the most technically correct name and the most commonly used one. In this case, both the most technically correct name of the state and the most commonly used name for it is "Ireland", so our starting point should be Flag of Ireland. The follow up question is then whether there are any other articles that might compete for that location, with a greater or approximately equal claim to prominence under that name. There are no such other articles, so I am persuaded by the arguments of many of the pro-movers that Flag of Ireland should also be our ending point. I don't believe that there is any reasonable chance of confusion as to which "Ireland" is being referred to, and if there is it should be solvable by a hatnote with a link to St. Patrick's flag. Of course, it's quite possible that some Irish nationalists will choose to interpret this to mean that this flag is a flag of the entire island and/or good portions of Boston, but the sources and the text of the article are quite capable of making it clear otherwise.
As a final note, in case I've yet to sufficiently upset everybody involved in this discussion, I should advise you that many of you are coming across as histrionic and a little unreasonable. While it is undoubtedly the case that the Anglo-Irish conflict is a major one with serious consequences, such conflicts are not immune from birthing sub-conflicts that are candidates for WP:LAME. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 03:31, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose There is ambiguity over the term Ireland. The government of the Republic claim the name of the island for themselves. Wikipedia have found an Irish made solution to this misleading anomaly which is reflected here.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Support The information above is both verifiable and reliably sourced. We must deal with the information according to our policies and not our opinions. --Domer48'fenian' 18:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment This request should surely be ignored. A decision has already been made. (See above). Mooretwin (talk) 18:45, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment Would Mooretwin please read WP:CCC and strike the above comment. Lucian Sunday (talk) 22:14, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Where have I canvassed anyone?; Where has anyone canvassed me? Lucian Sunday (talk) 08:15, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Did you make the request? I was replying to the fact that you had pointed to WP:CCC by pointing you, in turn, to policy about 'forum shopping'. --Setanta747 (talk) 10:25, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Support per wikipedia poilcy WP:V and WP:RS. BigDuncTalk 18:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose: I was pointed here by Domer48, the user requesting this move, which I felt was very fair as I supported the move to Flag of the Republic of Ireland. I do not have a hard and fast opinion on this subject, but I do have a few ideas and would like to point out my disagreement with some of the supporting reasons already posed. Using the name Republic of Ireland is also verifiable and also reliable, and holds just as much weight as Ireland does. In addition, it has the added benefit of not being ambiguous, of not marginalising the other part of Ireland, fits with common British usage, and falls in line with the Republic of Ireland article. As I already stated in the previous requested move discussion, RoI is used in the UK to distinguish the two nations occupying the island. There isn't much argument that the Republic of Ireland shares a very strong identity with the name Ireland, but it is fact that the name/island is shared by another nation, who do not take the flag in question, and that, just as Northern Ireland have done, the Republic of Ireland have officially taken on another name to clear up this change in borders. I understand that this is a tricky subject and that there are polar opinions to be considered, but I don't believe there is much back-up for the supporting opinions already given. Using the name Republic of Ireland makes just as much sense as the other option, and even more. Maedin\talk 19:34, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment: You say that it fits with common British usage and that RoI is used in the UK. This is not the British wikipedia - the name of the state as given by the state should outweigh the name a foreign country gives it. --HighKing (talk) 13:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment: Unfortunately, it is as incorrect as, for example, moving Flag of the United Kindgom to Flag of Britain (which exists as a redirect). It's the difference between the legal and correct name of the country/state, and other names that may also exist. The article *should* be at the legal and correct name. --HighKing (talk) 22:30, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment: To distinguish the two nations occupying the island, why not us "Ireland" and "Northern Ireland." Ireland being its official name likewise Northern Ireland? --Domer48'fenian' 19:11, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose - first, we just went through this; second, the Republic of Ireland may refer to itself as "Ireland", but given that the Republic only holds sway over part of the island, and that the rest of the island does not officially recognise the tricolour, we should effectively disambiguate, as "Ireland" and "Flag of Ireland" are ambiguous terms. BiruitorulTalk 19:43, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment - yes, we did just go through this, but it seems that an editor with a clear COI moved the article in the absence of a consensus. --HighKing (talk) 13:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment Thanks for that Maedin and Biruitorul, the only thing I would suggest is that the rational is based on our policies and not opinions. The Irish Government has not "officially taken on another name," having read the Constitution, but I may be wrong. It also states that "The Constitution can be changed only by a referendum in which every citizen of Ireland, over the age of 18, is entitled to vote." and there has been no referendum to chang the name. Thanks, --Domer48'fenian' 19:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Support (strongly) a return to flag of Ireland. This flag is not just the flag of a state, it is the flag of a country and nation; it is the flag of a culture and people. This flag was adopted by the Republic of Ireland, it was not created by the Republic of Ireland. It has a history and usage beyond the state that it represents. Djegan (talk) 20:08, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Strong support as per Djegan Gnevin (talk) 20:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment A "people" and "nation" as you define them cannot adopt a flag. Only a state or other incorporated body can. That state has an ambiguous name which it has helpfully provided a dab for.Traditional unionist (talk) 20:14, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
With respect I think that line of though is extremely rigid and inflexible; and largely academic. I assume you will be raising your protests at talk:ethnic flag? Djegan (talk) 20:25, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps you could point me to the point in time when the Irish people adopted the flag? Of course you can point to lots of sources for votes in the Dail and other places when the Irish state adopted it, but not the "people". I'm one of them and it ain't my flag. You accuse me of being rigid, I'm afraid you are being far too loose with indefinable arguments.Traditional unionist (talk) 20:30, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment The article was at Flag of Ireland for nearly 6 years since 15 of jan 2003 with out the need to DAB . Only a RM in which WP:IE wasn't even informed was used to generate a "consensus" Gnevin (talk) 20:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Fully agree with Gnevin this move was done without notifying any interested editors. BigDuncTalk 22:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose - first, we just went through this; second, the Republic of Ireland may refer to itself as "Ireland", but it only represents part of Ireland, and the flag only represents part of Ireland; third, the St Patrick's Cross is considered by many to be the flag of Ireland. Mooretwin (talk) 22:16, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
The Tricolour is the flag of Ireland only in sense that the "official name" of the Republic is "Ireland", and it is the flag of the Republic. It is not, however, the flag of the whole island (or at least it is not universally considered to be so). As I said above, the St Patrick's Cross is considered by many to represent the whole island (as is the Four Provinces flag). Aside from the GAA, and other nationalist organisations, the Tricolour is not used to represent the whole island. The confusion arises because the ROI state has confusingly named itself "Ireland" Mooretwin (talk) 13:09, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
The official name of the country is Ireland. The official flag of Ireland is the tricolour. Ireland / Northern Ireland were is the confusion? Donegal is the most northern part of Ireland, so Northern Ireland can be confusing? Ulster has 9 counties, not 6 so that can be confusing. --Domer48'fenian' 13:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Support - first WP:CCC; second, the Flag of America represents an even smaller part of that Continent; third, I'm sure the Union Flag should be the Flag of America by Mooretwin's reasoning. Lucian Sunday (talk) 23:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Nonsensical comment above. Mooretwin (talk) 07:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Strongly Support - it can't be ignored that the internationally and legal name for the state is Ireland. --HighKing (talk) 22:30, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose yet again. Firstly, I think creating perpetual argument on this matter so soon after discussion on it was closed may amount to disruptiveness. Secondly, Flag of America actually redirects, as it should, to Flag of the United States (although perhaps Flag of America should properly be a disambig page). I know of not one person who thinks that the Union Jack is the flag of the US or of America. --Setanta747 (talk) 00:30, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Support.Sidenote: It is a pity we cannot just call the country Eire and be done with the whole tedious debate. It is also a shame, if there has to be debate, that there is no technical way to leave it up to the Irish to determine how things should be called. (I'm not Irish by the way, I am Oz of Scottish extraction). Having worked in the UN it was very uncool there to translate other people's countries. Much as I love Wikipedia I am a little embarrassed at our lack of grace in decreeing "You shall henceforth be known as Cote d'Ivoire but you lot shall be called East Timor even though you don't want to be"; country naming is not one of Wiki's proudest activities. It is a shame we can't be a little more cosmopolitan about all this. The tyranny of the majority is very scary when you are small. Ireland is Ireland, the Irish flag is the Flag of Ireland Ex nihil (talk) 01:02, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose. This issue is simple. So long as Ireland has other flags, the term "Flag of Ireland" is ambiguous. What of the Cross of Saint Patrick, which every schoolchild in the Anglosphere knows was incorporated into the Union Flag? Or what of the green flag with the harp? The top links at GoogleBooks when I search "Flag of Ireland" seem to be referring to this one (technically a naval ensign). Tricolours in general are republican symbols. That is why the Irish republic has a tricolour where no previous Ireland did. And part of Ireland still does not: it still has Saint Patrick's cross, albeit joined with those of Andrew, David, and George. That the Irish republic calls itself just Ireland is irrelevant: if France started calling itself Europe, would we all just jump on? It's not a shame we can't be more cosmopolitan, it's a shame the majority of Irish (those in the Republic) try to dictate what it means to be Irish, so that only their flag is. It's the appropriately-named "no true Scotsman" fallacy. Srnec (talk) 02:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment You've answered your own point. None of those flags are actually called the "Flag of Ireland" now, are they? If they were, I would expect those flags to appear in the article "Flag of Ireland" instead. --HighKing (talk) 13:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Did you read what I said about GoogleBooks? They are all called "flag of Ireland". Their other names stand to them as "tricolour" stands to the Republic's flag. Srnec (talk) 01:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Ireland does not refer only to the Republic and its constitution is therefore irrelevant. See France/Europe in my previous comment. Srnec (talk) 01:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Very, very strong support. There are no credible arguments against Flag of Ireland. The protests about ambiguity seem to me to be bedrudgery from some unionists or sympathizers. (I am neither unionist nor republican.) Totally irrelevant. Srnec's "argument" about France calling itself Europe is absurd. I agree with Gnevin above; this article and its name was stable for 6 years. "Ambiguity" of the name "Ireland" is handled easily. I surely wish people would grow up and get over their POVs about articles like this, and British Isles and so on and on and on. Please move this article back to Flag of Ireland permanently. -- Evertype·✆ 06:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment My France/Europe point is quite rational. It goes to show that what a nation calls itself is not the final word. And the only POV here is the one that refuses to believe that all Ireland is not part of the Republic of Ireland and never was. Srnec (talk) 01:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose. for reasons already stated.--Rockybiggs (talk) 08:33, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose per reasons for the previous move, i.e. consistency and disambiguation. If Republic of Ireland is moved to Ireland, then I'll support it. пﮟოьεԻ57 10:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment I intend to do that next. There is no disambiguation needed between Ireland and Northern Ireland. --Domer48'fenian' 13:33, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Support Articles should have correct names. Pierre67 (talk) 12:32, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Conditional Oppose As long as the country article is called Republic of Ireland, we shouldn't be making these page movements. GoodDay (talk) 13:26, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Support, due to the fact this article was moved October 5 without a consensus. 4 to 3 infavour of 'Flag of Republic of Ireland' is not, a consensus. GoodDay (talk) 15:21, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment see above comment.--Domer48'fenian' 13:33, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Move country article first, then others will fallow. Don't put the carts ahead of the horses. GoodDay (talk) 13:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I’ll focus on this first, but if you want to go ahead please do so. It would be a great help. Thanks. --Domer48'fenian' 13:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Nay! Too much of a headache. Nailing jello to the wall, would be easier. GoodDay (talk) 13:56, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that Juliancolton, see my comments above. --Domer48'fenian' 13:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Support Agree with Domer and HighKing above. Also agree that no consensus existed for the original move. 83.71.251.205 (talk) 14:10, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Support as per mom 62.40.32.14 (talk) 16:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
::Comment [ I don't know who turned my opinion, in opposition to the move, into a "comment", but don't. This is an oppose.Angus McLellan(Talk) 11:59, 30 October 2008 (UTC) ] This is about the Flag of the Republic of Ireland, and not the Flag of Ireland, so I can see no reason why it should be moved. Ireland is a large island antispinward of Britain, an island with a millennium and a half of recorded history, and not an ephemeral political entity which controls only part of the island and has claimed the name for less than a lifetime. I doubt that presentism will ever reach such ridiculous heights that the Ireland article will be moved, so no what-iffery, thanks all the same. It's been demonstrated often enough that WP:V and WP:RS have no bearing on page naming. Angus McLellan(Talk) 22:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Thinking again, a dab page with two entries is a nonsense. That's what all those hatnote templates, {{for}}, {{this}} and the like are for. No, I think I'll have to support this. Curses! Angus McLellan(Talk) 00:30, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Picture the scene. England decide they want to leave the union, but a small corner of northern England decide they want to remain part of it along with Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland. Would anyone object to the much larger part being called England or having their chosen flag being called the flag of England? Would London allow anything else? I wonder what the consensus would be then? I'm not too bothered to be honest, but it seems to me that if Ireland (republic of) want to call their flag the flag of Ireland they have every right to, that is their name after all. Titch Tucker (talk) 23:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
That's what the Macedonians said. MickMacNee (talk) 03:17, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Support. There is no scope for ambiguity when you consider the phrase as a whole. Flag of X in common usage and on wikipedia is invariably describing the flag of the country of X. There are no cases where X is reasonably expected to be either an island, or a historic/defunct country, or any other entity, when there already exists a current country called X. Ignorance in some quarters as to the fact there exists a current country that calls itself X should not be used as a reason to dictate the name of the article that describes the flag of X on Wikipedia. The higher goal should be education not accommodation. The paradox is, what has been said about the assumptions stemming from the phrase Flag of X is not an argument that translates well for moving ROI to Ireland. MickMacNee (talk) 03:17, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose, as far as I can tell (and even being a committed Irish nationalist), the article title as it is is accurate and precise - the tricolour flag only applies to the parts of the island of Ireland controlled by the Republic of Ireland. Saying that it is the "flag of Ireland" implies that it covers Northern Ireland, which is just not correct. Lankiveil(speak to me) 03:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC).
The very page you linked to (Ireland) holds the answer. "Flag of Ireland" implies that the tricolour is the flag of the geographical entity "Ireland", rather than the political entity "Republic of Ireland". Since this is not the case (the geographical entity of Ireland, in fact, has no official flag), it would be inaccurate to name the article that. For the same reason, the article on the political entity is at Republic of Ireland, and the article for the island is at Ireland. Lankiveil(speak to me) 10:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC).
I should have thought that was obvious: Northern Ireland is part of Ireland (the clue's in the second part of the name). Mooretwin (talk) 08:21, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
and San Marino is not part of Italy; and Monaco is not part of France and Gibraltar is not part of Spain - we had better change them and more as well!!
there is no reason why you cannot have a Flag of Ireland and a Flag of Northern IrelandClemMcGann (talk) 09:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Apparently we cannot have the Flag of Northern Ireland as the flag that represents Northern Ireland appears to offend the sensibilities of some editors. Similarly, the usage of the title 'Republic of Ireland' for disambiguation purposes also seems to offend the sensibilities of some editors. --Setanta747 (talk) 16:21, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't really work that way Mooretwin; if you live in Europe everyone understands that Northern Ireland is Ulster and is a part of the UK and that Ireland is Eire and a country in its own right. The flag of Ireland is not confused with Ulster any more than the flag of England, (George Cross) is confused with New England, or S. Africa with the continent of Africa or Petite France with France. And if the reader really doesn't know what's going on a quick look through Wikipedia will fix that. Ex nihil (talk) 09:30, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
"Everyone understands": Quite a grandiose claim! Mooretwin (talk) 10:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
what a bizzare retort; Monaco, San Marino !? No they are not part of France, Italy they are part of continental europe--Rockybiggs (talk) 09:30, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Support There is I believe a precedent for allowing Flag of Ireland to be used on wikipedia. The state of Virginia broke up into two states during the American civil war creating West Virginia. We now have two states, West Virginia (N. Ireland?) and Virginia (Ireland?) both of whom have their own flags, Flag of West Virginia and Flag of Virginia. Now, I know the analogy is not exact, but it's close enough in my opinion to have this article named Flag of Ireland. Titch Tucker (talk) 10:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment I think the flaw in that argument is that Virginia is located at that title, whilst the Republic of Ireland is not at Ireland. пﮟოьεԻ57 10:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Then Republic of Ireland should be changed to Ireland, as it should be in constitutional law ClemMcGann (talk) 11:47, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I had a look at the talk page on Republic of Ireland and it looks like a catch 22 situation. With the discussion going on there concerning the naming of that article there is a knock on effect to the naming of this article. If, as you imply, the article name cannot change due to the naming of the other article it would make it a discussion going nowhere. Is there a wikipedia rule that says this cannot happen? Titch Tucker (talk) 11:34, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Support, strongly a return to flag of Ireland. If not, wikipedia will remain inaccurate in law and fact, merely representing the rather biased views of a group of editors. ClemMcGann (talk) 11:47, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment "Flag of the Republic of Ireland" is not "inaccurate in law" (whatever that actually means!) nor "inaccurate in fact", since the flag is, in fact, the flag of the Republic of Ireland. If you go to the Republic, you will see it flying in official capacity on public and government buildings. Mooretwin (talk) 12:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
For the sake of accuracy - the term Republic of Ireland is a description. It is not the name of the state called Ireland. Those "government buildings" you speak of are of the government of Ireland. ClemMcGann (talk) 12:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
A "description" is perfectly fine, for the sake of accuracy! Government of Ireland is actually only the government of the Republic (its jurisdiction doesn't extend over all of Ireland). Mooretwin (talk) 12:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Support move back to Flag of Ireland and regret WP is so often made a farce. As to the name of the Irish state...thats well settled...it is "Ireland", not "Republic of Ireland", just see Names of the Irish state or even look it up in the CIA World Factbook but I expect all those participating already know this anyway...The usual farce. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 20:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment No-one disputes the "official name" - the problem is that it is a misnomer as "Ireland" (the state) only has jurisdiction over part of Ireland. Hence its better to use the "official description" of Republic of Ireland. Mooretwin (talk) 21:00, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
It isn't a misnomer at all. Nobody would ever expect a wikipedia article called "Flag of X" to be about island X when X is not also that state. It is only an issue for Irish name obsessives, the rest of the world understands what flags are for, to represent national (i.e. state) identity, not geographic identity or historical national identity. There is certainly no all Irish people ethnic organisation that has its own flag. MickMacNee (talk) 22:53, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Support - my view is that if wikipedia wants to be the best encyclopedia it wants to be, it's going to have stick to the facts and avoid disgruntled editors trying to make a political point. It's name is the flag if Ireland and to use anything else is just backing one particular POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.241.166.22 (talk) 23:04, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose - As I said in the earlier request for the opposite, the flag of the Republic of Ireland and the flag of Ireland are not the same. Referring to the "flag of Ireland" may raise ambiguity over Saint Patrick's Cross which may be considered the de facto flag of Ireland since Ireland has no official flag. However, the Republican of Ireland does. 71.106.172.173 (talk) 23:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment Why would anybody expect Ireland the island to have a contemporary official flag at all? Why on earth would anyone expect there to be an article located at Flag of Irelend describing an island and not a country? I don't see any case for ambiguity when specifically talking about flags rather than general names. This is a case of unjustified transference of one valid area of confusion to an invalid one. MickMacNee (talk) 00:12, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment - I didn't say that Ireland has an official flag or anyone should expect so. I didn't say that they would expect to find an island as opposed to a country. Sheesh, talk about a straw man. 71.106.172.173 (talk) 22:06, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Support A national flag must always be called by its proper name, and 'Flag of Ireland' is the proper name[12]. There seems to be a bit of national stuff going on here. Sad! Purple Arrow (talk) 01:06, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Question: The sources cited, used as evidence of WP:RS, come from the government of Ireland. Wouldn't the interests of the Irish government instead mean their views on this matter are, in fact, a violation of WP:RS, which requires "reliable, third-party, published sources"? — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 01:18, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment The source I cited is the American Government's CIA website, here it is again [13]. Purple Arrow (talk) 02:14, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Ahh, I was looking up at Domer48's initial sources. I didn't bother to wade through all the comments. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 17:52, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
"a bit of national stuff going on here. Sad!" .. would you care to explain that little outburst, Purple Arrow? Which do you think is "sad"? Is the "national stuff" from people who support the move "sad" or is it the "national stuff" from the people who oppose the move "sad", in your opinion? --Setanta747 (talk) 02:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose. The title "Flag of Ireland" implies that this flag is for the whole island of Ireland (including both the Republic and Northern Ireland), when in fact it is the flag of the Irish state only. The title "Flag of the Republic of Ireland" removes any ambiguity and sensitivities there may be with respect to Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK. Also, for the sake of consistency it should match the title of the article on the Republic of Ireland. – Axman (☏) 16:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment "The title "Flag of Ireland" implies that this flag is for the whole island of Ireland." And that is just an opinion, the flag implies nothing of the sort, a group of editors are making this suggestion. For consistency, the Republic of Ireland is next to be moved. Ireland is the name of the country under Irish Constitutional Law, and is recognised under European and International Law. The flag of Ireland is the flag of a sovereign independent country, and is recognised as such.--Domer48'fenian' 18:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
A number of Editors have given as their reason for opposing the return of the article to Flag of Ireland is that it implies that it is the flag for the whole island of Ireland. Has any editor provided anything to support this opinion? --Domer48'fenian' 18:58, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
The very title suggested supports that. 71.106.172.173 (talk) 22:08, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
And yet again, so we now have consistency, clarity, implies and suggested, could we have a rational that is cited or sourced, rather than vague notions or opinions? --Domer48'fenian' 22:29, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
You speak English quite clearly. I would assume that it would help in understanding ambiguity. 71.106.172.173 (talk) 06:59, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose move to "Flag of Ireland" for the reasons already stated in other comments above: clarity and consistency with the article on the country itself. - Ev (talk) 17:13, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Support Geographical features do not have flags, so there is no need to disambiguate from the island, unlike in the case of the country. There is precedent in other cases; the EU flag is at Flag of Europe despite the fact the EU's area does not correspond to the geographical continent of Europe, nor even a political definition of Europe (e.g. Switzerland). Any lingering doubts can be addressed in the intro. --Rogerb67 (talk) 21:46, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment Looking at these discussions I believe the arguments in favour of returning the article name to flag of Ireland have been better put and carry more weight. I'm told that a poll does not carry an argument(at this stage the poll would have it changed), rather it is the weight of the argument. Unless someone can come forward and give a very good reason for leaving the article name as it is, I see no problems changing the name. Titch Tucker (talk) 22:56, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
In case anyone interprets Titch Tucker's comment above as a move to close the debate early, I really do think it's quite early. The current name is not dangerously incorrect, let's have a debate of the proper length so that we're not back here in another 3 weeks. --Rogerb67 (talk) 23:44, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
I hope it wasn't interpreted that way, I was giving my opinion on the discussion up to this point. Cheers! Titch Tucker (talk) 23:57, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment I came across this discusion by accident and I am very confused as to why this is not supported b all the editors on wikipedia. POV seems to be a word that has been used I assume it meens point Of view. The only reason I can see for the page not being called Flag Of Ireland is to sooth the feelings of unionist editors.
Comment. Quite so. (I am neither a unionist nor a republican.) -- Evertype·✆ 08:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
I beg to disagree with you Titch Tucker. From what I can see, the arguments in favour of keeping the name as "Flag of the Republic of Ireland" have been better put and carry more weight. Here is one of the reasons cited which might make you consider your opinion: ambiguity. The name "Flag of Ireland" is ambiguous.
As for "soothing the feelings of unionist editors" by an anonymous unsigned editor - to start with, there are non-unionists who have opposed this proposed move .. in fact at least one of them professed to being a nationalist. Also, since we're discussing the soothing of feelings, may I point you in the direction of the overly-long discussion and subsequent campaign which saw the removal of the flag of Northern Ireland from almost every article it had been attached to, except for basically footballing articles, simply because the current flag offends the palate of nationalist editors? --Setanta747 (talk) 03:01, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Support From what I can see above, it looks like a bunch of British editors trying to decide what Ireland calls itself. This POV-pushing goes against everything WP stands for. The country is called Ireland. Doesn't matter if the island is also called Ireland, it doesn't have a flag. There's one Irish flag, and that's for the country. 75.145.158.173 (talk) 00:44, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment Aware that this is not a vote, I count 12 editors offering Oppose to the move from FOROI to FOI and 20 editors offering Support. One may compare this with the 6 editors previously supporting the move from "FOI" to "FOROI", with 4 editors opposing. My analysis is that the previous move from FOI to FOROI was made hastily and without consensus, and that now with a greater number of editors participating we see a strong desire to overturn the previous move, with (as Rogerb67 and others note) dissenters being unionists who don't like Ireland being called "Ireland". I don't believe that the WP ought to support such a POV. -- Evertype·✆ 08:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
I think your last statement (claiming that dissenters are "unionists who don't like Ireland being called "Ireland"") is a blatant falsification - many of the editors opposing the move back have nothing to do with Ireland and care not what goes on in the political sphere there. What would be interesting would be a breakdown of the !votes from editors from outside the British Isles, i.e. ones who no-one could even claim would have a bias in either direction. From what editors have on their userpages, this is Biruitorul (O), Ex nihil (S), Axman (O) and Ev (O). пﮟოьεԻ57 10:36, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
It is not a "falsification". It is my opinion; it is the impression I get from the endless tone and specious arguments that get thrown back over and over. This page should be moved per WP:V and WP:RS. It was moved to here recently on foot of an inadequate poll that did not show consensus. It should be moved back. -- Evertype·✆ 09:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Number 57, I think I should tell you, with no patronisation intended, that you don't have to be from the British Isles, or even just Ireland, to be biased in any way. There are such organisations as the Troops Out Movement and NORAID, for example. And then there are certain countries which have aided certain terrorist organisations throughout the Troubles and other organisations which have allied themselves with or supported terrorism.
You are correct about your comment with regard to "unionists who don't like Ireland being called Ireland". I am unionist by ideology, and I have no problem with Ireland being called Ireland. --Setanta747 (talk) 03:11, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
57, please WP:AGF and don't refer to points by people you disagree with as "blatant falsifications". It also breaches WP:CIVIL. Most of the editors, like myself, who oppose the move (retrospectively - didn't even know about it at the time) don't live in "The British Isles". I see that you do, however. Your closure of the "move" debate was wrong, shockingly wrong. In the light of that I'm surprised you don't recuse yourself from this proposal as you are clearly an involved party. This is an area covered by the "Troubles Arbcom" rulings and to decide to make a move when such a tiny number of editors were represented is possibly itself a breach of the Arbcom Rulings. Sarah777 (talk) 01:08, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Of course, if we look at the previous vote which changed the name of the article you will see only two of those registered a vote, one opposed and the other supported the move. If it is interesting to breakdown those votes in this discussion it should have been just as interesting on the last vote. Titch Tucker (talk) 14:13, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
What I have noticed also is like Number 57, a number of those opposed have said they would support the return of the article if the Ireland article was likewise changed. That will follow on fron this discussion. That would suggest that those opposed at 9 and those for support at 23. --Domer48'fenian' 12:34, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Support - clearly this isn't just the flag of the 26 counties; it is also the flag of the nationalist (mainly Catholic) community in NI. It is the flag of the Irish nation, of those who regard themselves as belonging to a nation separate from Britain (or in the case of NI they aspire to some day become part of sovereign Ireland). Thus the legal status of the flag as "the flag of Ireland" is correct. Sarah777 (talk) 15:16, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
By that logic, the flag of Northern Ireland is the correct flag for Northern Ireland and it is the flag of the Northern Irish nation, of those people who regard themselves as belonging to a nation separate from the Republic of Ireland. --Setanta747 (talk) 03:16, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I must confess to some feelings of schadenfreude here as I watch some of my fellow 'Staters who supported calling Ireland the RoI. It is that which has facilitated this ridiculous move. Sarah777 (talk) 15:27, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Support, its clearly the flag of Ireland (the official name of the state) and the prior move smacks of a hasty decision to say the least --SnowdedTALK 22:01, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Support. Just because the article on "Ireland" needs to be disambiguated between the state/island, it does not automatically follow that this nomenclature becomes standard for all related article. If there was also a Flag of Ireland (the island) then disambiguation may be required. Since there does not appear to be such a thing, its perfectly acceptable to title the flag of Ireland (that state) under the preferred name (of the state). As long as the lead makes it clear it represents that state - and as far as I can tell, it does - there should be no problem. Rockpocket 23:43, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
There is also a Flag of Ireland (the island). In fact, there is more than one. See some of the comments above and below this. --Setanta747 (talk) 03:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Currently the disambig page lists only the Saint Patrick's Flag which appears to have its own perfectly appropriate title. Your concern can easily be resolved by a "This page is about the national flag of Ireland. See also the Saint Patrick's Flag" header. Rockpocket 04:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
My point was that there is more than one flag of Ireland. The St Patrick saltire is one of them - A flag of Ireland. It is not THE flag of Ireland. Nor is any other single flag. There are at least two flags of Ireland and this flag, at this article is exclusive to the Republic of Ireland. --Setanta747 (talk) 16:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
There is not more than one flag of Ireland. The St Patrick saltire is not the flag of Ireland. --Domer48'fenian' 16:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
In your opinion. Others have different opinions. Mooretwin (talk) 16:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Domer, I have just illustrated the fact that there is more than one flag of Ireland and that there is no one flag of Ireland. Patrick's saltire is most definitely a flag of Ireland. When it comes to the island of Ireland, it is probably closest to being THE flag of Ireland. --Setanta747 (talk) 17:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment That makes it 24 - 13 now (or 27 - 9 in the Domer system), time to close the curtain on this. A clear case of WP:SNOW, though this has been open now for five days. Wrap it up now Rock. Sarah777 (talk) 00:55, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
If I had !voted oppose and closed it as such, you would not be very pleased with the obvious conflict of interest, Sarah. Therefore, having !voted as I did, it is not appropriate for me to close in support. I'll leave that up not someone who is completely uninvolved. Rockpocket 04:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
!voted? What is !voted??! (Hardly a typo as you repeat it:). We should know these things Rock otherwise we might suspect the Wiki equivalent of the Masonic handshake. Sarah777 (talk) 10:23, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose - there is clearly ambiguity over what is the "Flag of Ireland" (otherwise this discussion wouldn't be taking place) and where there's this level of ambiguity the best solution is a disambiguation page - which is what's currently at Flag of Ireland. I would, however, support a move to "Flag of Ireland (state)" or similar if that idea is mooted. Waggers (talk) 13:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Support As per above. The correct name is "Ireland". It is also a dishonest tactic to attempt to pass off the fact that the state changed to a republic with the Irish 1948 Republic of Ireland act as justification, since the real reason for pushing ROI is more clearly rooted in the British 1949 act that named the state in the UK as the "Republic of Ireland" and is the reason for this day that the British continue to use the term. No-one else does. 207.181.210.6 (talk) 02:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
The above comment by an unregistered anonymous user is mere assertion. Mooretwin (talk) 08:36, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
The above comment by the registered anonymous user is mere desperation. It is not mere assertion just to agree with already-made arguments. Or would you prefer if I regurgitate them again? 207.181.210.6 (talk) 23:40, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
1. Please register. 2. It is mere assertion to say: (a) that it is "a dishonest tactic" to refer to the ROI Act 1948; (b) that "the real reason for pushing ROI is more clearly rooted in the British 1949 act"; (c) that the latter act is "the reason for this day that the British continue to use the term"; and (d) that "no-one else" uses ROI. None of these statements are supported.Mooretwin (talk) 00:01, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment, where is the ambiguity? - There are a bunch of states that have have geographic names that do not correspond with their borders – Examples:
Hear, hear. This is clearly indicative that the correct name for this article is Flag of Ireland, consistent with Wikipedia practice. -- Evertype·✆ 21:31, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
You've sneakily covered up the reason by piping the link to Republic of Ireland. To answer your question, all those states are located at the article titles in question. The article located at Ireland is about an island, not a country. пﮟოьεԻ57 21:41, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
As Number 57 has pointed out, disambiguation is probably not necessary with the countries, territories or regions mentioned in the list above - there aren't three-different-entities that might possibly be confused by the readership. The problem with Ireland is quite unique, as far as I can see. "Flag of Ireland", whether that is any kind of 'official' name or not, is still ambiguous as it may lead readers to assume that the island has a political flag and that all of it belongs to a single state. Also, there is more than one flag which can be called "the flag of Ireland", as shown above. It is important that Wikipedia clearly shows the facts. The government of the Republic have provided a name for disambiguation purposes, and we should make use of it. --Setanta747 (talk) 01:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Any ambiguity can be cleared up by links at the top explaining that this is the state's flag not the island's and it can include links to the island flags. There can be a clarifying comment in the lede of the text (I think there may already be). THAT's how ambiguitites are dealt with. That's how it is dealt with on the Ireland page itself. But the tricolour is **overwhelmingly** the flag that is most common when speaking of the 'flag of Ireland.' Those other flags aren't even close!! The tricolour should be given the Flag of Ireland spot on that basis. So, I Support the move back. Nuclare (talk) 11:45, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Point of information: the Tricolour only represents the Republic: not Ireland (except in the sense of "Ireland" being the "official name" of the Republic), so it is not really a "Flag of Ireland" at all (except in that particular legalistic sense). Mooretwin (talk) 18:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
"except in the sense of "Ireland" being the "official name" of the Republic" Oooh, is *that* all it is?!?! Just its official name, eh? And here I was thinking Ireland was its official name. In any event, as I'm sure you already know, the name Ireland isn't just some official technicality for the state--it is also, by far, the most common name for the state in everyday language. In the case of flags, the state's flag ****FAR***** outweights in use any other flag that, theoretically, could be labeled a 'flag of Ireland.' If you want a page dealing with the flags of the island of Ireland, than you can create a page with just that name, perhaps, or something similar, and it can be linked from the top of the Flag of Ireland page. But the tricolour deserves the Flag of Ireland slot. It *is* a "Flag of Ireland" and far more common than any other flag that could claim that Wiki location. Nuclare (talk) 01:23, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Flag of America--- links directly to 'Flag of USA'. It does no seem to cause any problems, and the USA covers only part of the continent of America. Therefore we have the "Flag of Ireland" in similar mode. Ireland does cover 85% of the island. Northern Ireland is a territory that stayed with Britain in 1922, and is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and would be covered by the Flag of Great Britain. That's my analysis. Purple Arrow (talk) 01:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Support (1) per Rockpocket, the fact that the article on the state needs to be disambiguated does not mean this article does, (2) the flag predates the 26-county state, and is still the flag of people outside the state, but within the land of Ireland i.e. Northern Ireland nationalists, and (3) I do not believe that, even at 7-4, there was sufficient consensus for the move to the current name. Scolaire (talk) 09:37, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Re. (2) The flag may well pre-date the 26-county state, but it had no status prior to that, and certainly not as "the flag of Ireland". If it is the "flag of people outside the state", that is not the same as being "the flag of Ireland". If it is the flag of Northern Ireland nationalists, then, by definition, it is not the flag of Northern Ireland unionists, and therefore not the flag of all of Ireland! Mooretwin (talk) 10:15, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
But by that same argument, the flag of St. Patrick isn't a "flag of Ireland" either. It is a flag that a very minority church and a couple small sports teams use to represent Ireland. In fact, I imagine, island wide, that there are more people who unofficially think of the tricolour as the flag of all Ireland than accept the flag of St. Patrick. Whether that's a good thing or not, isn't my point here, just that it puts the tricolour in terms of representing the island is the same position as the flag of St. Patrick. Now, my argument is that regardless of the all-Ireland issue, even confining it to the state, the tricolour still is by far the most common flag of Ireland -- the "Ireland" here meaning the state, which is a perfectly correct, sound use of "Ireland". Nuclare (talk) 11:59, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
The flag of St Patrick certainly is a flag of Ireland. It is not, however, the flag of Ireland, and no-one is suggesting that it ought to be the subject of an article entitled "Flag of Ireland". By the same token, the Tricolour may be considered to be a flag of Ireland, but it is not the flag of Ireland, as it only represents the Republic in any formal sense. By your own logic, you conceded that the Tricolour "is in the same position as the flag of St. Patrick" "in terms of representing the island". There is no dispute that it is the flag of the Republic, however, and no mischief in entitling the article accordingly so as to avoid the ambiguity which this long discussion successfully highlights. Mooretwin (talk) 13:15, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment Does anyone see a consensus for the first move? Looks to me like the original move didn't achieve a consensus, with an equal split of supports and opposes. Why was this article moved under those circumstances? I've asked the admin for a comment. --HighKing (talk) 10:17, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
There was clearly no consensus for the abolition of the status quo. Sarah777 (talk) 01:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, please don't misrepresent facts - there was not an equal split - seven editors supported the move (Setanta747, Traditional unionist, Maedin, 71.106.182.162, Srnec, Sebastian Scha and Biruitorul), whilst only four opposed it (Everytype, Ex nihil, Djegan and 70.51.8.75).
Secondly, the arguments for moving the article (disambiguation and consistency) were much better than the ones against it ("I've never heard of it", "Please leave it alone", "it is the flag of a people"). пﮟოьεԻ57 10:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I am not misrepresenting the facts, but looking at your reasoning it appears that you did a poor job in making this move. In fact, I'll go further and state that now, I think you are misrepresenting the facts. I count only 4 editors that supported the move (Setanta747, Maedin, Srnec, and Biruitorul). 5 if you include 1 anon IP editor. Neither Traditional unionist, nor Sebastian actually supported the move - they merely registered comments. I count 3 editors who oppose the move (Everytype, Ex nihil, Djegan). 4 if you count the anon IP editor (70.51.8.75). That's *not* a consensus no matter how you try to look at it. The arguments also included the unassailable fact that Ireland is the official English language name of the country, which by itself should have stopped this argument dead in the first place. Disambiguating for clarity within an article is one thing, renaming articles is a very different matter. --HighKing (talk) 11:03, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I took part in the discussion, and supported the move - just because I didn't embolden the word "support" shouldn't mean that I am not counted. Mooretwin (talk) 11:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Even if you were right, I'm still not sure how four and three are equal - is this a new branch of mathematics? Regarding the comments of other editors, Sebastian Scha said "Personnaly I can't see a reason not to name the article flag of the repblic of ireland" and Traditional unionist simply stated "I agree."; both seem to indicate support to me. пﮟოьεԻ57 11:12, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
And I'm still not sure how four vs three gets you a consensus. Is this a new policy you're formulating? BTW, Trad is agreeing with the anon IP comment which disagrees with the move (so that would actually make it 2 more opposes if you're scraping the barrel to actually count editors who didn't indicate a support or oppose), and Sebastian explicitly states a different opinion to both proposals. It seems you have a personal opinion on the subject, and indeed you have shown a predilection to use the term Republic yourself. This should have been grounds enough for you to have not gotten involved and left it to a neutral admin to make the decision. As it is, since the same *consensus* appears for the latest move request, perhaps you can apply the same standards and move the article back? --HighKing (talk) 11:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Like I said, it was 7 against 4. And of course I use the term myself - that is how the country is referred to on Wikipedia. If you want to talk about scraping the barrel, accusations of personal bias are pretty much it. пﮟოьεԻ57 11:34, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
And even though your 7 against 4 count has been shown to be wrong, you're still going to stick it out. And your COI extended to the creation of a DAB page where you also list the flag of St. Patrick. Clearly you rammed a consensus down the throats where none existed, which has now been proven to be your own personal opinion. If an accusation of personal bias hat fits.... --HighKing (talk) 12:38, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Where are we
As far as I can see the original move was based on a (disputed) 7-4 count and was made after the discussion had been open for less than ten days with no notification elsewhere. The discussion above indicates some 23 editors in favour of restoring the previous status quo, with 13 against. I think that makes the argument to restore the 30th Sept. position fairly clear. --SnowdedTALK 22:19, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be better to wait until the Task Force has completed its job. Mooretwin (talk) 22:22, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I would agree Snowded time to close and move. BigDuncTalk 22:24, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Not sure if you are agreeing with me or Morretwin BigDunc. However when or if the task force will ever compete its job is an open question, pending that day the consensus positions should continue, and in this case its clearly the 30th Sept. position --SnowdedTALK 22:33, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. The title of this should be consistent with the title of the Republic of Ireland page. Mooretwin (talk) 22:42, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Sorry Snowded I was agreeing with you.BigDuncTalk 22:46, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
thanks Big Dunc. Mooretwin, that really is not the issue, we all know each others position, this is one of process and restoration to the prior consensus position is an argument you made very strongly on the ROI article so please be consistent, you can't argue for consensus when you agree with the position and against its use when you don't (well you can, but you shouldn't) --SnowdedTALK 22:59, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
THat's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that this dispute - and many others - all stem from the naming dispute about which a task force has been established. The resolution lies with the task force, surely? Mooretwin (talk) 23:04, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
So let's put the article back to the way it was when the taskforce was started... 207.181.210.6 (talk) 23:15, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Can someone tell me what steps to take and I'll do the move. For instance, how do I get rid of the Dab page at "Flag of Ireland" so that I can move this article? Or are we waiting for a reason? 207.181.210.6 (talk) 23:03, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Who are you and by what authority do you purport to act? Mooretwin (talk) 23:04, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Once a consensus has been established, seems to me that any editor can do the move? If not, who can do the move? 207.181.210.6 (talk) 23:15, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
You have to wait for an admin to close the discussion and make a decision on making a move. However, I'll repeat the fact that decisions are not made on vote counting, they are made on the strength of the arguments (Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion#Deletion, moving and featuring - "Each of these processes is not decided based on headcount, but on the strength of the arguments presented."), otherwise you could have 15 trolls arguing for a nonsense decision and two editors arguing based on policy resulting in a nonsense move. пﮟოьεԻ57 23:21, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Why? Where does the policy say that? It only says an admin is required if the destination title already exists - and when I look I see it was you that created a page at the original title, so can you not just move it back now that a consensus has established it should be put back where it belongs? 207.181.210.6 (talk) 23:32, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
1. Read what he said.
2. Register. Mooretwin (talk) 23:35, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Pay attention - I did. Still waiting for the policy that backs up what either of you claim.
Is this another of your imaginary policies? 207.181.210.6 (talk) 00:20, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
(Replying to the IP) The reasons non-admins shouldn't close discussions has been demonstrated repeatedly throughout this debate - a lot of people here are seriously ignorant of the policy on how to close them. Consensus is not about the number of votes, it's about the arguments themselves. And I personally believe that the arguments for the current title (consistent with the Republic of Ireland main article and for disambiguation) are far stronger than the others. I might also note that the vote above has been severely distorted by the fact that the move request has been reported on two Wikiprojects (WikiProject Ireland and WikiProject Irish Republicanism) which are likely to have nationalistic bias towards a certain title. пﮟოьεԻ57 23:48, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Your edit comment of "Learn some policy" refers to what exactly? And your argument for keeping the article where it is shows a remarkable amount of British-blinkered vision. You discount the official name of the country, the name used internationally by all international organizations from NATO to the UN to the EU, etc because of what exactly? Because a few British editors think the world requires disambiguation? 207.181.210.6 (talk) 00:20, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Headcount is not the only criteria and I think the original admin made his/her decision in good faith and was probably not aware of the wider debate in play. The arguments presented at that time were weak but then few edits were even aware of the move as it was not notified. Remember this was one of a series of edits that day by one editor to insert ROI on several articles. Now that more people are aware, more arguments have been made including the clear one that the name of the state is Ireland. These are similar arguments to those taking pace on the renaming question in general.
The proper course of action must be to restore to the 30th September position pending resolution of the wider question. This is also supported by a clear majority of editors. --SnowdedTALK 23:52, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Saint Patrick's Flag
You haven't shown that it's wrong. And you still clearly don't understand what COI means either. Are you also suggesting that Saint Patrick's Flag does not represent Ireland? пﮟოьεԻ57 12:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Saint Patrick's Flag is not the flag of Ireland. --Domer48'fenian' 12:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
In your opinion. Mooretwin (talk) 13:01, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Ironically, you appear to be confusing "Ireland" (the state, aka ROI) with "Ireland" (the island): no-one has claimed that the St Patrick's Cross is the flag of Ireland (the state, aka ROI). Your confusion reinforces the need to retain this article under its current name. When I said it was your opinion, I meant it was your opinion that the St Patrick's Cross wasn't the flag of Ireland (the island). Mooretwin (talk) 14:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
It appears to me that your confusion is between "Ireland" and "island" sound the same but quite different. My opinion is the St Patrick's Cross is not the flag of Ireland, and is not the flag of the island of Ireland either. Now I have put forward Irish Constitutional Law to support my view, and you have put up, well nothing. --Domer48'fenian' 14:44, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I know that is your opinion (it was me that said it was your opinion!). But it is only an opinion. Others have a different opinion and consider the St Patrick's Cross to be the flag of Ireland (the island), and do not consider the Tricolour to be the flag of Ireland (island). Mooretwin (talk) 15:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
If you mean Saint Patrick's Flag; is there any evidence that it was used by any others than the British or the Blue shirts? ClemMcGann (talk) 10:35, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Is there any reason why that should matter? --Setanta747 (talk) 16:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
If so, it would not even be "a" flag of Ireland ClemMcGann (talk) 18:47, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I don't follow you. --Setanta747 (talk) 00:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
The answer would seem to be -
a)that the St Patrick’s cross was/is the flag of the Kingdom of Ireland, i.e. the flag of a state in the same way that the tricolour is the flag of a stateb)republicans perceive the tricolour state flag to be the flag of Ireland, non-republicans perceive the St Patrick’s cross state flag to be the flag of Ireland
I would add that the green flag could come in two versions, harp with or without crown. was originally a blue flag. It would be the same argument.
--Utinomen (talk) 22:01, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Amended --Utinomen (talk) 02:06, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
pre-1800post 1800
The earlier flags, there was also a flag like the "red duster" with the gold harp on a green field replacing the union jack
What evidence have you for your claims?
When and where was the red X used as the flag of Ireland? It was used by the Knights of Saint Patrick, by the Duke of Leinster; to represent Ireland in the Union Jack; In the arms of TCD etc - but when are where was it used as the Flag of Ireland? ClemMcGann (talk) 22:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I see what you are saying. The Cross of St Patrick can only be extrapolated as the Flag of Ireland because there was no 'state of Ireland with its own flag' as it were, merely the 'government over Ireland which chose to have Ireland represented by the St Patrick's cross'. I have amended by comments above.
--Utinomen (talk) 02:06, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
First move consensus duex
Comment To date, there has not been one reason by those opposed, supported by any source that is either verifiable or reliably sourced. IMO their was no consensus to move the page in the first RfM. --Domer48'fenian' 11:17, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Not true. Mooretwin (talk) 11:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
And now we have the moving admin participating in this poll! This is a clear COI. --HighKing (talk) 11:26, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Err, you actually asked me to come and comment here. You clearly have no understanding of what WP:COI is about, or admin guidelines - I can't close a debate I've participated in - I didn't participate in the first one so there was no problem with me closing it, and I'm not going to close this one. пﮟოьεԻ57 11:34, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I asked for you to comment and clarify why you felt a consensus existed, and it is clear that you have failed to justify the move. You have demonstrated a bias towards the move by trying to count editors who didn't support or oppose the move but who commented instead. You further stated here that you personally didn't see a reason not to move the article, and you have now explicitly opposed a move back to the stable article title of more than 6 years. These are not the actions of a neutral admin. --HighKing (talk) 11:42, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Number 57 are you comparing those references to Irish Constitutional Law? Hardly like with like? Can Republic of Ireland be referenced, yes. Under Irish Constitutional Law is it call the RoI no. --Domer48'fenian' 11:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Please read article 4, 5 and 7 of the Irish Conitution "Article 4 The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland," "Article 5 Ireland is a sovereign, independent, democratic state" and "Article 7 The national flag is the tricolour of green, white and orange." "Bunreacht na hÉireann, the Constitution of Ireland, is the basic law of Ireland. No law can be passed which does not agree with it. The Constitution can be changed only by a referendum in which every citizen of Ireland, over the age of 18, is entitled to vote." --Domer48'fenian' 14:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
We know that. But the statutory description is ROI, so let's use it to avoid confusion. Mooretwin (talk) 15:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
It looks as though Domer has been canvassing - messages sent to Djegan, HighKing, Ex nihil and Evertype (at least), asking them to comment on this discussion. Mooretwin (talk) 11:25, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
This is a very disingenuous comment and shows bad faith. A simple check of Domer's contributions shows that on October 22nd he notified everyone who participated in the previous discussions. Bad form Mooretwin. --HighKing (talk) 11:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
He didn't notify me. I accept that he was clever enough to notify others who were opposed, though, so my initial observation was wrong and I withdraw it. Mooretwin (talk) 11:32, 23 October 2008 (UTC) --HighKing (talk) 11:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Mooretwin, yourself and TU had already commented on this discussion, did you need to be informed? Thanks HighKing, I did inform everyone. --Domer48'fenian' 11:42, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I've withdrawn the comment. See above. Mooretwin (talk) 11:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that, much appreciated. If you add < s > on each end of your comments it strikes it out.--Domer48'fenian' 11:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I thought HighKing had done that already. I've done it again for his and my comments. Mooretwin (talk) 12:04, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Surely it was more than 4-3. That's a misrepresentation. Mooretwin (talk) 15:25, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
See the Comments section below. Or count them yourself above. --HighKing (talk) 15:30, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
(moved below to comments section) --HighKing (talk) 15:58, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
(moved from above)
I count 7-4 in favour of the move:
7 in favour - Setanta747, Traditional unionist, Mooretwin, Maedin, 71.106.182.162, Srnec and Biruitorul
4 against: Evertype, Ex nihil, Djegan and 70.51.8.75
Incorrect. Traditional unionist didn't support or oppose. Counting yourself is inventive but dishonest, seeing as how not 3 hours ago you said that you didn't vote. That's still 5-4 I'm afraid. --HighKing (talk) 16:03, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
It's not incorrect. On the contrary: it's correct and you are misrepresenting the outcome of the previous discussion. Traditional unionist said that he agreed with the move. I also did (16.36, 1 October), so it is not dishonest, and you should retract the accusation immediately. I removed the comment that you mention because it was a mistake. Mooretwin (talk) 22:50, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
What would be considered a consensus? As someone coming in from the cold I'm interested to know if a consensus is just one or two more votes than the opposition view, or would there have to be a significant margin? Titch Tucker (talk) 16:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
See WP:PRACTICAL. The most important passage to consider here (relating to my earlier RM closure) is:
In determining consensus, consider the strength and quality of the arguments, including the evolution of final positions, the objections of those who disagree, and existing documentation in the project namespace if available. Minority opinions typically reflect genuine concerns, and their (strict) logic may outweigh the "logic" (point of view) of the majority.
Each of these processes is not decided based on headcount, but on the strength of the arguments presented.
Hope this helps. пﮟოьεԻ57 16:56, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply. Titch Tucker (talk) 17:05, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
The reality though, is that it often becomes a headcount. I'd like to think that it's because it's not always easy to determine "strength and quality" of all arguments. Unfortunately in this case, the closing admin has attempted to misrepresent the opinions of editors in order to articificially and dishonestly inflate the "count" of one side, has selectively chosen parts of the arguments to facilitate dismissing opposing arguments out of hand, has shown a preference to using one term over another in his own comments, and is now openly registering his opposition opinion to return to the status quo of 6 years. The reality is that admins have opinions too, and sometimes this bubbles to the surgace and unfortunately too many times have we seen admins with a reluctance to accept when they've made a mistake (wow, just like real people!). --HighKing (talk) 19:13, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd say that's just a blatant lie and I suggest that you stop repeating it. I haven't misrepresented anyone's views. You claim Traditional unionist did not register support for the move. I think it's quite clear that he did, especially as he was the first editor to oppose a move back. Why not ask him?
As for the claim that I've "a preference to using one term over another in his own comments", you're just getting desperate; how much of my edit history did you have to trawl through for the last time I made any edit regarding Irish articles? Added to the fact that the article on the country is located at Republic of Ireland and therefore there is obvisouly no problem with using the term, you really are clutching at straws to try and prove a very misguided point. пﮟოьεԻ57 19:28, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I've withdrawn the comments above and I regret the inappropriate tone. Please accept my apologies - you were acting in good faith, had no history on this topic, and are very entitled to an opinion. --HighKing (talk) 00:03, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Can we all just dial it down a notch or three. We have a move request, lets focus on this for the time being and we can get onto the Republic of Ireland next. --Domer48'fenian' 19:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I've removed my opinon from the 'page movement request'. The growing bickering is annoying. GoodDay (talk) 19:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Just spotted "Added to the fact that the article on the country is located at Republic of Ireland and therefore there is obviously no problem with using the term". Bit of insight there, eh? Sarah777 (talk) 10:14, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
We have Northern Ireland flags issue; we also need an article for All-Ireland flag issue. The present article, whatever its name, should be solely about the green-white-orange tricolour; the section "Other flags representing Ireland" should be refactored into this other page. The current lame Flag of Ireland disambig is really a failed attempt to address the same issue.
Here a CTV quotation of Jim Flaherty, Canadian finance minister, suggests that perhaps the government of Canada has quasi-officially recognised that "flag of the Republic of Ireland" is the best term for the tricoloured flag flying over Dublin. Flaherty was representing the Prime Minister (and thus the gov't, I presume) when he used the term. The reason seems obvious. He was present at the opening of a park to commemorate Irish immigrants to Canada from 1847. These immigrants had no allegiance to the tricolour, b/c it is not the flag of Ireland. They were born under the Union Flag, which incorporates a flag of Ireland. Srnec (talk) 01:16, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
I checked the Irish government's website, [14], [15]. "Flag of Ireland" gets hundreds of mentions. The other name that WP has been using this last few days doesn't appear to get any hits at all. Purple Arrow (talk) 01:54, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Of course, I wouldn't have even thought that worth checking. But I wasn't talking about the Irish government's self-referencing, was I? Srnec (talk) 04:31, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
so that makes the Irish government the primary source, yes? As primary source, why are we even considering what Canada thinks? Who cares? 75.145.158.173 (talk) 00:28, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Wrong. The Irish government is not the best source. We need independent sources. Srnec (talk) 04:43, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Oh, grow up, Srnec. I don't believe you'll accept anything that contradicts your POV, and your POV seems to be "I hate the fact that when they got independence the Irish named their independent state 'Ireland'." Independent? How about ISO 3166, the international standard providing two- and three-letter codes to represent the names of countries? Would an International Standard be "independent" enough for you? In that, the short name of Ireland is "Ireland" and there is no long name of Ireland because it's the same as the short name (numeric code 372, alpha-3 IRL, alpha-2 IE). You may compare this with the UK; in ISO 3166, the short name of the UK is "United Kingdom" and the long name is "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" (numeric code 826, alpha-3 GBR, alpha-2 GB). No "Republic of Ireland" to be seen. I am sure that this will not satisfy you. Ireland is a republic. Its name is not, however, "Republic of Ireland". In fact, the entity that has that name is a football team. -- Evertype·✆ 07:48, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Grow up? Do we need this tone at Wikipedia? I refer you to my "if France called itself Europe" example above. I call the Irish state "Ireland" all the time, context permitting. I call it the "Republic of Ireland" when I need to be specific. In this case, since there are other candidates for "flag of Ireland", we need to be specific. See Ireland. Srnec (talk) 04:17, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
For the record, I'm Canadian (and this is football). My great-grandfather was Irish. I have no stake in the issue of Irish independence, and, obviously, do not regard myself as republican or unionist. I'm not British, even though I have ancestors that were. If I have a POV (and we all do) it is only that we cannot just ignore millenia of history in favour of an "official" nomenclature established recently by fiat. My POV could easily be seen as pro-Irish, recognising as I do that Ireland is more than a Republic. The greatest contribution Ireland has made to the world is the product of its unique Christianity, for which it can thank Saint Patrick. So why shouldn't his cross be its flag, as historically it was (and in part still is)? Srnec (talk) 04:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
If you can come up with a source that shows that the saltire was used by St. Patrick, maybe then you'd have a point. At best, it's yet another British invention to represent Ireland. 207.181.210.6 (talk) 03:33, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for ranting, and ignoring the "independent source" I mentioned, ISO 3166. Your "If France called itself Europe" example is specious at best. -- Evertype·✆ 09:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Ranting? I ignored your point because (i) I know their are independent sources for just calling the country Ireland and (ii) a three-letter code is not a good one (obviously). I had no intention of responding to your points, only in defending myself from personal attacks (like allegations of a hateful POV). Srnec (talk) 23:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
ISO 3166 is an International Standard. -- Evertype·✆ 09:52, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
What we need here is to change the name of the RoI article to "Ireland". Or change Ireland to a dab page, like "America". The latter being very much my second choice. Sarah777 (talk) 10:11, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
That might be a reasonable idea Sarah, if it wasn't for the fact that Ireland is an island which has it's own, very expansive, history prior to the creation of the Irish Free State. --Setanta747 (talk) 16:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Eight days now. Same time it took an Admin to close the elimination of the status quo on a 6 - 4 vote. How long is this going to be left open? Sarah777 (talk) 00:20, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
To clarify. Does it, or does it not, require an admin to close this? I've asked to be pointed to the relevant policy but while the British editors were quick to tell me an admin is required, I'm glad I'm not holding my breath waiting for the pointer to the policy. Anyone? If not, I'll go ahead and close this and move. Weighing up the argument (and ignoring the overwhelming count of editors) there is no case for keeping it at RoI in the face of all the evidence. 207.181.210.6 (talk) 00:44, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
"Evidence" of what? Mooretwin (talk) 08:35, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Apparently it does require an Admin; but as for policy! "Ignore all the rules" means the Anglo-American majority just basically make it up as they go along. You can still get banned for ignoring a non-rule mind. If it is an "establishment" non-rule. Sarah777 (talk) 00:50, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Still looking. Where does it say an admin is required? Anyone? 207.181.210.6 (talk) 01:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
What about it? Guidelines are not the same as policy, and the policy on moving WP:MOVE appears to be the correct policy that should be applied. 207.181.210.6 (talk) 16:49, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
An admin is not required, per se, but it is desirable when the topic is as heavily debated as this has been. In any case, I suggest it should be someone who is already familiar with the closing of requested page moves, and, even more importantly, someone who has been uninvolved thus far. It would be highly inappropriate for you to move the page yourself, as you have been participating in this discussion for some time. There is no harm in this staying open for a while longer until a suitable editor/admin closes it. Maedin\talk 08:00, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for clarifying. I take it that it would be highly inappropriate for me to move because I've been participating, and the move I would make is in line with my opinion. It would be seen as a conflict of interest. Seems at odds therefore that the previous move was performed by a British admin with an opinion in line with the move he performed. Retrospectively the move was therefore highly inappropriate, no? Or does being British give an editor/admin extra rights or immunities? 207.181.210.6 (talk) 16:49, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
FYI, I had never been involved in this sort of debate before. I merely came and closed the requested move. I was then invited back to comment once the second move request had started, and then joined the discussion to say that I feel the current title is the most appropriate. If you want to complain about my behaviour you are more than welcome to bring it up on WP:ANI. пﮟოьεԻ57 17:54, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
That appears to rule me out :) Sarah777 (talk) 08:50, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
You say you have not become involved in a debate like this but you are the closing admin on the previous move with what I would call spurious consensus and then you post comments like this. Strange proposal. Seems you are accusing any editor who voted for move on this thread as bigoted nationalists who wouldn't be able to remain impartial if they tried absolutle rubbish. So with your comments I reckon you have a major COI and should remove yourelf from the thread. BigDuncTalk 20:30, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
I think it's quite clear to anyone with half a brain that there are several people here who are strongly biased nationalists (yourself included). пﮟოьεԻ57 20:49, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
That comment above comming from an admin proves that it is time to extricate yourself from this discussion as you have a clear COI. BigDuncTalk 21:08, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Noting that someone has an obvious POV problem means that I have a COI? How does that work? пﮟოьεԻ57 21:29, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
You are a supposed admin that closed a contentious move with a majority of 3 and then let your POV be known on the link I provided an admin with a POV has a COI simple. BigDuncTalk 21:35, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
⬅ There are strongly biased nationalists and unionists, as well as nationalists and unionists, innocent and guilty third parties and many others. Whatever it does not justify closing a contentious move on a contentious subject after a few days on a 6-4 vote followed by declaring your self to be pro one of the groups. It seems to be that пﮟოьεԻ should have the common decency to admit s/he acted too hastily (I accept goodwill here given no prior edit history on these pages) and restore the position of 30th September. --SnowdedTALK 23:15, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Fair warning (of intent to close)
brackets added by me to header for clarity MickMacNee (talk) 02:16, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
OK. Enough is enough. The count is 28 -14 in favour of restoring the status quo and already this vote is open longer than the 6-4 vote that removed the status quo in the first place. Please note (Admins especially) -
If, within 24 hours from the time of this post this proposal had still not been closed off then I will close it and restore the status quo. Sarah777 (talk) 23:24, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Not unless you've been appointed an admin, you won't. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 00:22, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I've already clarified that an admin is not required - it is not policy. While it is advisable to wait for an admin, I think it's fair to say that we've been waiting for days now for an admin to close this. Is there a special policy or procedure to request an admin to close? 207.181.210.6 (talk) 00:26, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I dunno. Maybe try grovelling? I've tried about everything else. Regardless, I will close, bank on it. There is no rule to say I cannot. Sarah777 (talk) 00:56, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Please don't do that, Sarah. It will simply result in more drama. My suggestion to you would be to leave a polite note at WP:AN asking if some brave soul would mind interpreting the consensus. Also, it would be preferable if you did so without telling them how you would like them to close it. Rockpocket 01:52, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Sorry Rock; there is only so much **** I can put up with. Clock is ticking. 21.5 hours left. The decision is clearly already made - all we need is a rubber stamp. If some Admin won't provide it then I will. If someone wants to close it the wrong way, then let's deal with that when it happens. I'm prepared to use WP:Snow if somebody ignores the manifest consensus. This debate is finished. Sarah777 (talk) 02:01, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I seem to remember your last ticking clock led to all sorts of problems for you. Honestly, I sometimes wonder whether you enjoy being in a perpetual state of conflict. Because the only thing you, of all people, closing this discussion would lead to is drama and bickering. Fine, if you will not post a request, then I will. But is if there are not takers in the next 21.5hrs, then I strongly advise you to change you mind. Since you will be held responsible for the shitstorm that will follow. Rockpocket 02:13, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
It's decisive, but meets WP:SNOW? not in a million years. MickMacNee (talk) 02:19, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
(Absolutely WP:Snow, if necessary). Rock, sometimes the correct course is so bleedin' obvious that we must take it. Is User:Number 57 being 'blamed' for any 'shitstorm' based on a bizarre decision? So how could I be, based on a "super-majority"? Nope, though I walk through the valley of Anglo-American POV I fear no weevils.....Sarah777 (talk) 02:27, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Sarah, please don't it will just make life difficult all round and you will behaving as badly as those who created the problem in the first place, not to mention damaging sensible initiatives on other pages. --SnowdedTALK 02:42, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
21 hours, I've never been more serious. Sarah777 (talk) 02:56, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Well if you do then I think you should rename yourself anti-thark. Hopefully an admin will save you from yourself :-)
Just do it - be bold and all that. I can't see a ban sticking if you did it once. MickMacNee (talk) 03:08, 31 October 2008 (UTC) Somebody turned up to close it before I wrote this. MickMacNee (talk) 03:20, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Snow; that unsigned comment was doubtless from yourself. I'm perfectly happy with my current name. It is, without the numbers, the handle me ma gave me X years ago. X being less years than most of you Wikifolk have walked this earth but more years than the young Ryan Postlethwaite can remember. Sarah777 (talk) 03:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Lots of articles getting changed
Latest comment: 15 years ago16 comments9 people in discussion
Looks like Setanta747 is changing a ton of articles from "Ireland" to "Republic of Ireland". I request that editors stop immediately. Someone should keep an eye... --75.145.158.173 (talk) 02:28, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
If we had any Admins awake they'd deal with it - but it appears they only get excited when Irish editors start doing that sort of thing. Setanta747 is in breach of both the spirit and the letter of the Troubles Arbcom ruling but the "Admin Community" will only act when some Irish editors start reverting his warring. Sarah777 (talk) 02:42, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Sarah, let me just inform you that I am an Irish editor, to start with. Secondly, I am in breach of no Arbcom ruling in this matter. Thirdly, I think any comments by this banned sockpuppeter, Wikipéire should be ignored with prejudice. Fourthly, I am not "warring". --Setanta747 (talk) 03:22, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
If someone has a concern about Setanta747's editing in this sphere, I would advise they take it to WP:AE and ask that it be reviewed with under one of the numerous ArbCom remedies. Its unlikely to get much attention here. Rockpocket 04:35, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I don't think we are at the review stage yet. Hopefully things will calm down overnight and I would hope that people would now make sure that interested parties are informed of any edits/moves linked to the ROI/Ireland issue. WIkiproject notice boards make sense for this. --SnowdedTALK 04:54, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
That is good advice. I'd also suggest that making significant changes between the title of the flags is particularly ill-advised at this time. Rockpocket 05:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I would suggest that Setanta self-revert himself, and discuss, there is Bold, Revert Direct, and then there's taking an action which he really should have known would be controversial, and then complain that other people are being biased by undoing questionable activities. SirFozzie (talk) 07:42, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
You'll need to be specific as to exactly which of the "Lots of articles [I have] changed" you would consider controversial. So far, I have had, from Snowded and the apparently anon IP 75.145.158.173, some vague accusations relating in some way (by their seemingly harmonious perception) apparently to the British Isles, some unspecified edits or moves and this edit. Understandably, I am confused as to exactly what edits/moves/articles are being referred to. --Setanta747 (talk) 16:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
A good idea. If I was the suspicious type I'd maybe think Setanta was hoping that he'd lure some hapless editor (such as moi) into reverting and getting clobbered by Arbcom-citing Admins. But, of course I'm not the suspicious type. And Setanta; I don't share your ability to relate IPs to specific users, banned or otherwise. But I'd be surprised indeed if Wikipiere turned out to be the only bandit in town. Sarah777 (talk) 10:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Sarah, I resent your lack of WP:AGF. To counter, if I were the suspicious type, I might suggest that you were attempting to lure an editor into trouble yourself by making your 'hypothetical' suggestion above. I am editing Wikipedia as I have done since year dot - since even before I was aware of such things as WP:LAWYER etc etc.
As for IP editors, this particular IP seems to be heavily involved in this discussion process and anything related to it. It's quite logical to assume that it could be the banned used Wikipéire. You might be right with regard to the other anon IP editors - from either perspective in this discussion - but that is not what concerned me in relation to accusations made against me both here and on my talk page. --Setanta747 (talk) 16:49, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I've had a look at the edits, and they appear to be doing this despite this requested move. Their attitude dose not bode well for discussion either, if the example here is anything to go by? --Domer48'fenian' 14:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Who are "they", Domer? Why are you adding in a comment made by me to another editor on another talk page here? What has it got to do with you please? Keep your opinions of my attitude to yourself and stop trying to make me out to be the Big Bad Wolf. Had you followed the discussions between myself and Snowded, or in fact, had you been subject to the same kind of "attitude" as I was in the early hours of this morning, you might have come to the same conclusion as I. --Setanta747 (talk) 17:00, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
It was late at night when Sentana wrote that diff Domer, hopefully it will calm down this morning. I've posted things I regretted at the end of the day. --SnowdedTALK 14:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Looks like Mooretwin is also keeping himself busy inserting his POV into articles. This example I've reverted, but is this type of editing allowed? Tolerated? Is this not an example of disruptive editing? Where are the admins? Or is the community split with Irish vs British? Are there any Irish admins at all. I haven't seen any so far. 207.181.210.6 (talk) 17:10, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
I am not aware of any Irish admins but I could be wrong. And I would 100% agree with you that his editing (Mooretwin) is disruptive and has happened on many articles were he imposes his POV. No doubt you will be accused of being a sock or ignored becase you haven't got a user name, but you don't need one and the whole ethos of wikipedia is that your views are the same and respected as the edits of Jimbo WalesBigDuncTalk 17:17, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
In another example, as the move request on "Counties of Ireland" to "Counties of the Republic of Ireland" has failed, the editor is now trying to include the article in the category of "Counties of the United Kingdom". It's a petty reaction to the failed move - but what gets me is the lack of reaction from any admin. Any admins watching? 207.181.210.6 (talk) 03:28, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Mural Picutre
Latest comment: 15 years ago7 comments5 people in discussion
I feel this picture is disrespectful to our national flag, therefore debasing its use. Associating it with the more extreme facets of Ireland —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.8.107 (talk) 15:55, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not censored (WP:NOTCENSORED). The page does not have to be respectful to your flag. (There might be other reasons to remove the image, e.g. it seems a little irrelevant.) 128.232.1.193 (talk) 16:28, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I am not too fond of your aggressive tone, a little unnecessary. Not censored - great, but change anything and the bullies come out. However, I agree that the picture may be irrelevant - which would be ground to delete it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.8.107 (talk) 17:16, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Take a look around - there are many misuses and abuses of symbols and flags by extremists. Alas, Wikipedia is supposed to report facts and the facts are that extremists are disrespectful of our respective flags and symbols. Incidentally, I took the photo which is used in the first article I wiki-linked to here - specifically for the purpose of illustrating the usage of these symbols by extremists. --Setanta747 (talk) 17:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Setanta, a reasoned response, fair comments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.8.107 (talk) 17:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I see nothing wrong (or even extreme) in the mural. It won't win many prizes for artistic merit though. Sarah777 (talk) 17:22, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Assuming we're talking about the mural from Derry with the Celtic FC logo, I don't see anyting extreme either, but I do wonder where the harp is -- the one the caption says is included in the mural? I suppose I could be going blind, but...?? Nuclare (talk) 03:00, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Response to Sarcasticidealist and his decision to move
Latest comment: 15 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
1. A major argument of the anti-move camp seems to be that we should use the state's page location, Republic of Ireland, as the starting point for the location of this article. I cannot accept that; consider what would happen if the state's article were (quite reasonably) located at Ireland (state). Would we then be obligated to locate this article at Flag of Ireland (state)
I don't follow the reasoning here. In such circumsances, what would be wrong with Flag of Ireland (state)?
2. The follow up question is then whether there are any other articles that might compete for that location, with a greater or approximately equal claim to prominence under that name. There are no such other articles, so I am persuaded by the arguments of many of the pro-movers that Flag of Ireland should also be our ending point.
I don't accept the reasoning that another article must have "greater or approximately equal claim" to the name. If there are other reasonable claims, such as St Patrick's Flag or the Four Provinces Flag, then these need to be accommodated. Mooretwin (talk) 11:35, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I apologize for my delayed response; I only just saw this. The answer to your first question can be found here, where it states that, if possible, we should use the most commonly used name for something as the article title - nobody is going to claim that "Flag of Ireland (state)" is the most commonly used name for this flag. Your second question can be answered by WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, which states that "when there is a well-known primary topic for an ambiguous term, name or phrase, much more used than any other (significantly more commonly searched for and read than other meanings), then that term or phrase should either be used for the title of the article on that topic". If we accept that "Flag of Ireland" is ambiguous (I'm far from convinced that it is), it's still very clear that this article meets the criterion of "well-known primary topic" for "flag of Ireland". Per that guideline, the existence of "other reasonable claims" is not sufficient to disambiguate. I hope that clarifies things. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 21:03, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Introductory text
Latest comment: 15 years ago34 comments12 people in discussion
Now that the article has been given an ambiguous title, the introductory text needs to clarify that the flag represents only the Republic of Ireland. This is a reasonable concession to the pro-clarity editors. Mooretwin (talk) 11:35, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
The hat note is there. The hat note does all the disambiguation necessary.
It doesn't really. It ought to be clear to the reader from the text of the article that the article is about a 26-county flag and not a flag of the whole island. The text should surely stand alone, and the hat note should be independent of the text. The hat note is not a substitute for the text. Mooretwin (talk) 16:12, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
The hatnote also demonstrates why the most recent move shouldn't have happened.Traditional unionist (talk) 15:53, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
The hat note is the first line and makes things very very clear. --SnowdedTALK 16:41, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
The hat note is not part of the text of the article. Mooretwin (talk) 16:47, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
It explains exactly what the article is about. BigDuncTalk 16:51, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
And is not part of the article. The article text is stand-alone and should provide absolute clarity. It seems that the well-organised Irish-nationalist editors, some of whom have been talking to each other on their Talk pages about these disputes, having forced their hand on the title of the article are not prepared even to countenance any kind of concession to those on the other side of the debate. Mooretwin (talk) 16:58, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Sounds like sour grapes from a unionist editor who did not complain when the article was moved with a whopping majority of 3. Explain what is unclear about This article is about flag of the state called Ireland. For flags representing the island of Ireland, see Flag of island of Ireland. that you need to repeat it right under it. BigDuncTalk 17:04, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Mooretwin, quit the conspiracy theories. This article was moved in what can only be described as a raid without proper notification. Its now been restored. Live with it --SnowdedTALK 22:16, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Since an IP seem insistent on forcing their opinion on the article I would like to suggest the articles starts as
ROI is not a name for the state in question. You're repeating flag of Ireland twice in one line. It's terribly phrased.194.125.35.200 (talk) 23:24, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Where is flag of Ireland repeated twice? Gnevin (talk) 23:25, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
"flag of" and "ireland" is mentioned twice. Count! 2 flags 2 ofs and 2 irelands. Pretty simple. Also again ROI is not the country's name.194.125.35.200 (talk) 23:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Wiki maintains Ireland should be disambiguated . So we either say ROI which i dislike or force Ireland state in their . Their may be two of each word by their meaning are difference as the the first is the name of the article the second examplains the article . Its standard practice Gnevin (talk) 23:35, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Considering the hat note all this disambiguation stuff is unnecessary. The current intro is grand.194.125.35.200 (talk) 23:38, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree we use Ireland but The Flag of Ireland is the national flag of the Ireland should be the intro Gnevin (talk) 23:41, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
That does seem reasonable and I have actioned it as you guys are close to a 3RR --SnowdedTALK 23:47, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I was gonna join this discussion for a longer period. But (for my own reasons) I'll move on. GoodDay (talk) 23:56, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Someone appears to have edited the text to remove Republic of Ireland again, contrary to what was agreed here. I'm fixing it. Mooretwin (talk) 10:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
But now the references are incorrect - the both say its the flag of ireland. ClemMcGann (talk) 10:50, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but they use the term "Ireland" to mean the Republic, not the island. Hence all the confusion. Mooretwin (talk) 10:56, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Then seek another reference which says what you want it to say ClemMcGann (talk) 11:21, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Don't bother, someone fixed the text to conform with the references ClemMcGann (talk) 11:25, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
You're missing the point. Now that the title of the article has been changed, the text should confirm that the flag relates, not to Ireland as a whole, but only to the Republic of Ireland. The current text doesn't clarify this. Mooretwin (talk) 11:58, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Read the hat note:This article is about the flag of the state called Ireland. 100% clear Gnevin (talk) 12:11, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I refer you to the contributions above at 16:47 and 16:58 on 31 October 2008 (UTC). Mooretwin (talk) 12:25, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Gnevin - thanks for the clarification - ClemMcGann (talk) 12:54, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Guys - if ye are going to edit war over this, please make sure not to leave grammatical errors lying around. (Last edit resulted in intro reading: "The flag of the Ireland". ([Tongue in cheek] I know there is a long standing debate about the multiple meanings of "Ireland", but putting a definite article here in front of its use to mean the state is a bit much... :) [/Tongue in cheek]) Guliolopez (talk) 13:18, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Without getting drawn into the wider debate, is the line "The shorter flag of Côte d'Ivoire's colours are the same but reversed in order." really important enough for the intro?Derry Boi (talk) 10:14, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
IT's interesting, but perhaps not that important. Mooretwin (talk) 10:42, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Nah. I don't find it very interesting. Sarah777 (talk) 23:42, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Bah - typical Hibernocentricism from the above user... ;-) BastunBaStun not BaTsun 01:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
3rd Requested move
Latest comment: 15 years ago31 comments22 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the proposal was no consensus for move. Speedy close per WP:SNOW199.125.109.107 (talk) 06:09, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
It was proposed that Flag of Ireland be moved to Flag of the Republic of Ireland
This flag is not the flag of Ireland - it is only the flag of the Republic of Ireland. Naming the flag as the Flag of Ireland may cause ambiguity for the readership, whereas using the alternative name of the state, "Republic of Ireland" removes all possibility of ambiguity. Also, the flag described in this article is the flag of the state known as the Republic of Ireland. There are other flags of Ireland which are not discussed with equal weight in the current article. --Setanta747 (talk) 19:47, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Strongest Oppose I can muster Requesting a third move with in a month is ridiculous. The second move was fair enough as it was request to return to the status quo Gnevin (talk) 20:11, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Is this for real? A third move proposal within five weeks? Strongly Oppose. Djegan (talk) 20:30, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Strongly Oppose. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 20:56, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Oppose The only legitimate way to accept that there is ambiguity is to not accept, as fact, that "Ireland" is the name of the country/state. Since Article 4 of the constitution is very unambiguous about the name of the state, this fact is indisputable. HighKing (talk) 21:23, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with the preferred nomenclature of the state per the Constitution of the Republic - this has to do with unambiguous presentation in Wikipedia. --Setanta747 (talk) 01:20, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Oppose I think everyone who took part in the last one should be notifyed as I did, and all the wiki projects. --Domer48'fenian' 21:37, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Support wikipedia recognises that Ireland is a confusing term for the state that claims the name of the island, and this should be replicated.Traditional unionist (talk) 21:53, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Oppose This seems rather silly. The last move was decisive with a high amount of editors taking part. Will this become a never ending cycle? The reason put forward was already given in the last requested move and was rejected in favour of a return to Flag Of Ireland. Why would this be any different? There is I believe a precedent for allowing Flag of Ireland to be used on wikipedia. The state of Virginia broke up into two states during the American civil war creating West Virginia. We now have two states, West Virginia (N. Ireland?) and Virginia (Ireland?) both of whom have their own flags, Flag of West Virginia and Flag of Virginia. Now, I know the analogy is not exact, but it's close enough in my opinion to have this article remain at Flag of Ireland. Titch Tucker (talk) 01:34, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
I disagree - I don't believe consensus was achieved. A precedent was also set, so far as I can see, to re-propose directly after a decision has been taken by a closing admin (per the second of these three proposals, above). --Setanta747 (talk) 01:20, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Oppose (strongly)ClemMcGann (talk) 23:17, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
See here: "it is preferable that people explain their reasonings, respond to others and possibly compromise, rather than signing a one-word opinion and not looking back." --Setanta747 (talk) 01:20, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
I have said before, others have said since, "Ireland" is the name of the state. Exhaustion sets in from repetition. ClemMcGann (talk) 01:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Strong oppose: The summary by Sarcasticidealist in moving the article could not have been clearer. There is an element of mischief about this request. Scolaire (talk) 23:36, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
You're entitled to your wrong opinion. The same might be said of the proposal immediately prior to this one. --Setanta747 (talk) 01:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Oppose - this is a disruptive proposal. We had a "secret" move of this nature recently; this was reverted by a huge majority less than two weeks ago. Please make this proposal in June 2009 if you are still concerned. Sarah777 (talk) 23:39, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
No, No, No! - Been there before. This is just wasting everybody's time. -Secondarywaltz (talk) 23:46, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Strong oppose, of course. This has been argued and decided. -- Evertype·✆ 00:00, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Oppose - "Ireland" is a country. "Republic of Ireland" isn't a country, it's a disambiguation term used by Wikipedia because there are multiple articles vying for the title of "Ireland". There is no such credible competition for the title "Flag of Ireland", so there it should stay. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 00:01, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Define "country", SI. Certainly, "Ireland" is a country by the loose definition of a landmass inhabited by a given people. The flag of that "country" is therefore not the the tricolour, which is the flag of only the Republic of Ireland.
You suggest that the Republic of Ireland is not a country. Clearly you are wrong, as various citations can show. --Setanta747 (talk) 01:25, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Oppose: enough said. ww2censor (talk) 00:21, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Oppose as per last week, and Sarcasticidealist's reasoning! Purple Arrow (talk) 00:36, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Snowball - close this and move on. And a moratorium on further move requests until enough time has passed for a different consensus to have formed. HighKing (talk) 01:01, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Oppose. Enough already. Flag of X is unambiguous. MickMacNee (talk) 02:57, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Intro (2)
Latest comment: 15 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion
For crying out loud lads - Will ye stop with the blind reversions and edit warring and READ what ye are actually inserting!? Three editors have now all added text to the intro which says "The Flag of Ireland is the national flag of the Ireland". Whatever about the "what does Ireland mean" debate (which I am fast beginning to despair of) it is grammatically nonsensical to say "The Ireland". Now, please consider putting the readability of the article (and the reader) above all else - and use the preview button before inserting stuff. To confirm that (if nothing else) it at least makes grammatical sense! Guliolopez (talk) 13:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
OK. Thanks to whoever corrected that. (I didn't want to do it - lest my edits get reverted (yet again) by someone motivated by something other than grammatical correctness.) Now that it is at least approaching grammatical correctness (though there is still a preposition missing elsewhere), can we please consider a more complete reword to the intro. As the intro now reads: "The flag of Ireland is the flag of Ireland".
Again with tongue in cheek, this to me seems about as useful as having the intro to the article on the colour Black reading: "Black is Black". As much as Los Bravos might approve of such a move, surely something like the below would read better:
The National Flag of Ireland[1] (Irish: An Bhratach Náisiúnta),[2] is also known as the tricolour,[3] and is a vertical tricolour of green (at the hoist), white, and orange.
Although possibly with some confirmation - beyond the hat note - that Ireland (in context) refers the state. Cheers. Guliolopez (talk) 13:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
First, thanks for pointing out the extraneous "the" which I removed at your prompting.
I see no problem with The Flag of Ireland is the national flag of Ireland. Its a national flag. Just as the Red Ensign is the civil ensign of the United Kingdom.
The opening line This article is about the flag of the state called Ireland. should dead with any possible "island" confusion ClemMcGann (talk) 14:03, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be a lot easier just to say "Republic of Ireland" (commonly-used and understood term) rather than the contrived "state called Ireland"? One would almost think you were bending over backwards to avoid using the term Republic of Ireland. Mooretwin (talk) 14:23, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
It would be as strange as saying the flag of the monarchy of britainClemMcGann (talk) 14:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
No it wouldn't. There's nothing strange about the commonly-used term Republic of Ireland, provided for in Irish statute. "Monarchy of Britain", on the other hand, is a rarely-used term, and never used as a name for the UK. You're just being silly, aren't you? Mooretwin (talk) 11:41, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
I decline to reply to that remark ClemMcGann (talk) 17:19, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Hatnote
Latest comment: 15 years ago6 comments4 people in discussion
Divide Irish flags into three types:
Flags representing the state called Ireland
Flags representing the island called Ireland
Flags representing regions or institutions within the island called Ireland
The second page is one I split out of the first page after the recent naming dispute. In the light of that dispute, having a section called "other flags representing Ireland" (meaning the island) in an article about the flag of the state did not seem to me to be a good idea. I hatnoted a link to #2 from #1.
A couple of editors have changed the hatnote text [16][17]. The description of #2 as "other flags relating to the island of Ireland" is clearly incorrect: that is a description of #3. The edit summaries they left suggests they do not understand the intent of article #2. Perhaps relatedly, there has been comment on Talk:Flag of All Ireland making the claim, surprising to me, that there is no all-Ireland flag. To my mind, there is no agreed flag, but there are several contenders. jnestorius(talk) 14:11, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
It is worth a try - thanks - ClemMcGann (talk) 14:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I think its a silly idea. There are enough flag articles. There is no need for another second-rate contrived article. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 11:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Then why did you just suggest yesterday at the Cross Border (well, that's its name is at the moment) article that you would support the article if it were differently named? I don't like the current name of that article (or any of the names it's had so far), but there is nothing inherantly second-rate or contrived about having an article that brings the flags used to represent the trans-jurisdictional Ireland together in one place. It's one thing to disagree with such an article, but I'm not sure where the seeming bad attitude reflected in this latest comment comes from. Nuclare (talk) 13:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
If you look at the relevant talk page, I initially suggested that the article be scrapped. I still think it should be. See the relevant talk page for more of my reasons if you wish. But, as I said on the relevant talk page, Editors love flag articles so any excuse to create another one...even if there is no "flag of the island of Ireland" or "cross-border flag for Ireland" - its entirely contrived.
As for the hatnote for the Flag of Ireland article, if there is to be one, it should not single out any one article like the new article that is being written. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 17:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I know what you initially did. But you did also more recently say you would accept it with a different name. There *are* flags used to represent the island of Ireland, so that is not contrived, if--as you suggest--the name is changed to reflect the content. Your comment about not choosing one flag seems reasonable, but the point of the hatnote was to disambiguate the "Ireland" of this "Flag of Ireland." I think the link to the "Island" flags page should stay first, then perhaps a "for other Irish flags see List of Irish flags"--or some such. Nuclare (talk) 12:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Cross-border flag for Ireland
Latest comment: 15 years ago14 comments7 people in discussion
I think the above titled article Cross-border flag for Ireland is a POV fork. The article name that was being used on this page was misleading so I placed the real article name there, which is also misleading and should be removed. --Domer48'fenian' 15:58, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
What's that pages POV? Nuclare (talk) 00:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Its a POV fork, and if you read the Lead in the article Cross-border flag for Ireland it says "There is no cross-border flag universally accepted as representing both jurisdictions on the island of Ireland." Can you see the problem with the name of the article and the opening line in the Lead? --Domer48'fenian' 08:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Maybe it should say "there is no single cross-border flag ..."
It's a POV fork of what article? I also dislike its current title, and the corresponding lead; but that's being discussed on that article's Talk page. An article with POV problems is not necessarily a POV fork of another article. jnestorius(talk) 14:20, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
It should say that "there is no politically-agreed cross-border flag" and then list the others as Cross-border flags of Ireland. Looking at the above page, and the time spent on it, there must be a recession on.86.42.204.187 (talk) 00:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
It is about time the cross-border article was put as "Ireland" and this one be moved to "Republic" as the flag of the republic is what it is. People from outside the country refer to the north as Ireland without predjudice. Making wikipedia a venue to change the boundaries and names of our island, with disregard for the conventions of the country(s), is a symptom of audacity, political cyber terrorism (go accuse me of a union or a nation) and plain 1up your own bum dictation without concern (wether it affects it or not) for implication. It is the flag of the republic and until Ireland claims it you should pursue that claim with Ireland. ~ R.T.G 23:15, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
I suggest you look at the previous debate on this article and the various citations given there. --SnowdedTALK 07:47, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
All opposes in the discussion are of the nature a> personal political opinion, b> "too many move requests this month". Well, this is the month. The national flag of Ireland may be the tricolour, but that does not mean that the description of the Irish Tricolour is the "Flag of Ireland". The term "Ireland" is ambiguous and Irish law says the state be described as "the Republic of Ireland in the English language." When Churchill suggested to De Valera (man of the constitution) that he should make it a republic then, he said, "We already are a republic", flag and all. So, tell the guy who wrote the constitution (only other arguement I saw was articles 5 and seven of the constitution) that this is not a flag of the republic... what is his reply? Voting on Wikipedia should not change that, or, political subdjugation of this site is open for business. The article Flag of Northern Ireland, for instance, admits that there is no current official Northern Ireland flag before anything. I do not dispute claims. I do dispute authority. Is this the Wikipedia or the Wikipedian? ~ R.T.G 11:53, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Irish Law? No it doesn't. Please reread the act. --HighKing (talk) 01:39, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
⬅ You really do need to show some respect for prior discussion and citation. Your statement in respect of "opposes" is inaccurate; you are just repeating past arguments and offering no new ones. Your response above fails to deal with that prior discussion other than to dismiss it. You also can't stop history in 1948, but you need to look at what happened with the name after that date, the subsequent political (and sometimes sectarian) use of names and agreements on that subject in the Good Friday agreement. The debate over the name of the state is currently under Arbcom mediation by the way. --SnowdedTALK 12:08, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't see any focus on the facts that most persons in view of Northern Ireland (internationally) see Ireland, and that the Irish constitution was specifically written with that in mind. Constitutional changes of the Good Friday Agreement, often cited, were specifically designed to show peaceful intentions, not more. Considering many are twisting that item, it is little wonder, and argueably with good forsight, that the wording was not gone over for so long a time. The republic, as most any state, is a thing of war. It may be at peace (and has my respect), but it is not Ireland and gains no creedence over such, regardless of its various respects. It is a representative. Let's say, as a representative, most US Americans seemed to look exactly like B Obama (or Hillary, any of them) or they are so happy with what he says. People start saying "That man is America" (and that often happens). Who do we rename? Barack or America? What about the kids? Can they still go to Harvard or what? If you never saw one of these debates, you could have a nightmare where people make "these" nicknames, and within ten years, everything you read is confused. Reading is of the highest importance to those of the least learning and knowledge. In the area that that appears in good consideration, I will show my greatest respect. (I have read or skimmed all of the discussions, the only refreshing part, sadly, was the part about Canadian recognition, thankfully) This flag is the only accepted (in whatever proportions) flag of cross border recognition. The other article, argueably, is right for this title. ~ R.T.G 18:06, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
That is a very clear political opinion and I am happy to respect it as such. Wikipedia on the other hand works on citations and weight. --SnowdedTALK 06:06, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry Snowded, I do not know any citation worthy of note that argues the name of the island. I do not know any citation of note that argues the validity of the island (is that possible?) Citations previous speak oodles for themselves anyway, ... quote a prominent figure to dispute the term "republic" of course one judge has been quoted frequently from one statement he gave. If that is weight, imagine how much I weigh on paper. Snowded, if you want I will cite the name Ireland for you as the name of an island but as that is pretty iron clad and ancient, I am hoping to see something challenging the islands name before weighing any more support of relatively new speculation. Is that not fair ? I have read some hours of these debates and citations now. I have not doubted at any time the a majority may agree the state name as Ireland is valid. I see insufficient to no weight to discussing the validity of the islands name, which being of equal or more notability... Let's see that for a change or some cited reason that it isn't important. ~ R.T.G 22:08, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
In the realm of information, reference and education, there is only one Ireland where all the people can go... and visit. File:IRISH.jpgI vote that this picture be put in the Ireland article because it has been named IRISH.jpg by the relevant authority ~ R.T.G 23:34, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Strange revert
Latest comment: 14 years ago8 comments6 people in discussion
I noticed this. Isn't this actually introducing an error into the article? Quite apart from the misleading easter egg type link. --John (talk) 20:14, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
No the piping is completely correct and matches the consensus as read on this talk page and WP:IMOS.MITH 13:04, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
All IMOS says is follow consensus on the Talk page. Mooretwin (talk) 14:16, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
The piping is not correct as it disguises the actual name used by Wikipedia. Since the article titled is ambiguous, it is important to be clear in the lead that the subject of the article is the flag only of the Republic, and not of Ireland as a whole. Mooretwin (talk) 14:16, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
More nonsence! Were does it say Wikipedia disguises the actual name? "Since the article titled is ambiguous"? Would you cop onto yourself! Provide a reference to support your opinion. The Flag of Ireland, is the Flag of Ireland. Now do we need to draw a map to point this fact out? --Domer48'fenian' 14:43, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
The word is "nonsense".
It doesn't say anywhere that Wikipedia disguises the actual name. Who said that it did? The use of piping, however, disguises the Wikipedia name.
I don't need to provide a reference: Ireland is ambiguous as it refers both to the island and the Republic, therefore the article title is ambiguous. That's why there was a huge debate about it.
"The Flag of Ireland is the Flag of Ireland" is, apart from being a stupid statement, ambiguous, since it is not clear whether Ireland means the island or the Republic. It's not rocket science. Mooretwin (talk) 15:06, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Yes, IMoS, and anyway, it is the one and only Flag of the country known, under its own and international law, as Ireland (and nothing else). There is another page for flags with some relevance to the island, with a strange-name like "Cross-border flag or flags of Ireland" (a name of spectacular inanity) but this page is at least clear. And Easter egg is strange terminology for a standard WP piped link. The 32 counties of Ireland left the UK under the Treaty, and if 6 rejoined it a day or two later, as they did, that does not change the right of the sovereign state of Ireland to its name. 91.76.87.105 (talk) 14:01, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Mooretwin I asked you before not to correct the spellings of editors on talk pages it is IMO un civil and adds nothing to your argument in fact it detracts from it. BigDuncTalk 17:41, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Irish and capitalisation of flag
Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
I've changed "An Bhratach Náisiúnta" to "suaitheantas na hÉireann" as this is the phrasing used in the constitution and in official translations of Oireachtas debates. (The phrasing "national flag" is used in the English-language version of the constitution.)
Similarly, I've decapitalised the 'f' in "Flag of Ireland" since it is not capitalised in the constitution, the Oireachtas debates, official publications or even in common practice. The phrase is not a proper noun. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 18:34, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Defaced Flag version
Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
I saw a flag like this one at a panceltic festival. It is the national flag defaced by the coat of arms. I rather like it, but will leave it up to the editors to include it if/as they see fit.
Sg647112c (talk) 13:29, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
A proposed national
A proposed state
- is official only in the Republic of Ireland. In the rest of Ireland, 
this is the official flag (and 
this used to be). We shouldn't confuse the issue, and in the interests of clarity, move the page. Biruitorul Talk 20:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
.svg){kind=small}
![[1]](http://www.northern.edu/multicultural/images/irish_flag.jpg){kind=link}
.svg)
