Talk:Final Fantasy X/Archive 3

Congratulations!

Congrats to all the main contributors of this article on FFX achieving FA status *pops champagne cork* -- CHANLORD ^[T]/_[C] 05:26, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Whoooooo! --JiFish(^Talk/_Contrib) 11:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! Ryu Kaze 14:37, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, and congrats to all! — Deckiller 19:43, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Good job! *FF victory song plays prominently in the background* Brutannica 20:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Far Cry tie-in

This is only speculation I know, but am I the only one who thinks the island in the distence on the cover and the one on the promo things for Far Cry look similar? Again, this is only speculation, I just wanted to get that out. ELV

Uh, no. --JiFish(^Talk/_Contrib) 10:24, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I have never seen any Far Cry but are you referring to the snowy mountains behind the beach or to the beach itself ? The beach itself is quite common on the region FFX took inspiration from See here for examples. Renmiri 22:01, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I think he is referring to the beach. It's true that there are some similarities at first view, but then again, it's only a coincidence, I don't think there is a connection. A beach is just a beach. Check this image from far cry (LINK REMOVED.--DarkEvil 02:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Link flagged as spam by filter removed by me. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 22:52, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Ties to Final Fantasy VII?

I read it in the article, "Also as a result of the game's reception, the producer and scenario writer decided to establish a plot-related connection between Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy VII, another popular Final Fantasy title" but i haven't been able to find any more information, what is the connection?

Read the related section in this FAQ. Ryu Kaze 23:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I've read a translated version of FF VII Ultimania Omega somewhere in the internet. It actually reveals that FF X (particularly FF X-2) and FF VII does actually have connections. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.86.194.8 (talk • contribs) .

Significant deficiencies

Off the top of my head:

• There are no screenshots of what a normal battle looks like in the game—only one of a special "Overdrive" attack in action. Given the game's unusual and noteworthy battle system, this is a serious absence. Additionally, the largest amount of unillustrated space in the article is the second half of the "Battle system" section, so another image here would also help greatly in balancing the image-text ratio. An image of Lulu and/or Kimahri and/or Wakka in battle would be especially appropriate, as those are the only main characters who aren't illustrated anywhere in the article.
• There are no screenshots of normal wandering-around or talking in an area, which consumes the largest amount of time in the game and is therefore arguably the most important screenshot to have. We have plenty of FMV screenshots, and that's fine, they're pretty and all, but they're vastly less important than an image that illustrates the appearance of normal game-wandering; to not include images of what playing the game actually looks like 95% of the time would be like having a featured article on Pong that doesn't show what it looks like to actually bounce the ball back and forth. :/
• The "Story" section is really, really terrible. It never once mentions Seymour Guado in the entire section, ignores the fact that Rikku is one of the "divers" Tidus meets early in the game, fails to mention that Tidus is a star Blitzball player and is playing the game when Sin attacks (it doesn't even reference Blitzball until it gets around to describing Wakka), breezes over entire story arcs of the game without a thought (e.g. Kilika's devestation, the Mushroom Rock Road massacre, the betrayal at Macalania, Bikanel and Home, the Ronsos, and Yuna and Seymour's marriage), poorly summarizes the end of the game (the game doesn't end with Tidus's death, but with Yuna standing before the crowd), ignores such central recurring elements as the Sinspawn and the Fayth child and Yunalesca, neglects to mention the "trivial" fact that Auron is dead!, and, most surprisingly of all, completely fails to mention that the game actually begins in an in medias res "flashback" style, with 3/4 of the game's story consisting of that extended flashback! Also, I'm pretty sure it contains at least a few inaccuracies: "Yu Yevon" is the original full name of Yevon, he never "became" Yu Yevon (if anything, the opposite happened, at least in the popular consciousness), and I've never heard the "curse of Yevon" claim before, nor is it sourced in the article. It's also full of mediocre prose, out-of-sequence descriptions (e.g., it doesn't explain the basic situation with machina and the Yevonites until halfway through the game's plot, even though that fact comes into clarity near its beginning), and unencyclopedically flowery, melodramatic, sympathetic prose plagues many parts of the summary (and I'm also not sure you can assert that Tidus is "in love" with Yuna at X point in the game, without a citation explicitly attesting to this; certainly they fall in love over the course of the game, but choosing a specific moment is original research). This is by far the most worrisome section of the article. Despite its length, it is not only uncomprehensive, but quite lacking.

-Silence 05:25, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

While I didn't compose most of the story section, I can understand both sides of the arguement here — as a general interest encyclopedia, it is important to cover the basics of a plot structure; often times, excess detail leads to oppose votes in FAC discussions. But, like I said, I played through this game completely only once, so I am not well-versed in its plot. I can help with prose, but not with the content of the story section. — Deckiller 05:29, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I am fully aware of the problems of effectively dealing with the plot of even a game as short as this without overly bloating or unbalancing the article. However, with that in mind, there are still glaring absences. Moreover, with that in mind, there are clearly certain aspects of the plot that are excessively focused upon: we devote the majority of the entire section to explaining in detail the complex and controversial nature of "Sin" and "Dream Zanarkand" and Yu Yevon's past, while ignoring basic plot elements like Auron's nature and Seymour's major role in many parts of the story. (Leaving out Seymour in a plot description of FFX would be like leaving out Kuja in a plot description of FFIX, or leaving out Seifer in a plot description of FFVIII). Clearly the section is not only lacking in countless important plot details, but is also extremely unbalanced and biased in its coverage of significant plot features. Consequently, there are only two options available to us, if we need to keep the section no longer than it currently is but recognize its current glaring deficiencies in coverage: either we significantly trim down most of the current section, so that a couple more paragraphs can be added briefly explaining the most important of the missing details of the storyline, or we simply allow the section to expand organically (while keeping the section reserved to highly significant and relevant information, of course) consider the possibility of creating another daughter article, like "Story of Final Fantasy X", to account for many of the missing details. At this point, I would prefer if we simply expanded the article to improve the most important missing facts, trimmed a few of the dubious or non-vital details currently in the section, and didn't obsess about keeping it to small. We can always trim it down and/or make a daughter article for the information later; what matters most is that we not withhold vitally important plot information in what is supposed to be one of the 1,000 or so best articles on Wikipedia. An encyclopedia's job is first and foremost to inform; issues of page balance and space consumption, by comparison, are minor. Secondary concerns, at best. -Silence 05:44, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

There are two articles devoted to the story — Mythology of Final Fantasy X (now Spira (Final Fantasy X)) and List of locations in Spira. I do agree with working on the story section extensively, however. — Deckiller 05:47, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

As I recall, the section used to cover everything. Then we got to the Peer Review and FAC and we kept getting "Story too long. Trim trim trim." We'd trim something. "Story still too long. Trim trim trim." Finally I said something more or less to the effect of "Goddamn, we're already completely ignoring several major sub-plots. We've left the main one in there, and what's there now is vital to making sense of that one." I all but told them to re-write it if they thought they could do better. Some of your comments border on accusations of intentionally omitting information for an agenda's sake, or outright incompetence. I'd appreciate a little more research into the matter before such comments in the future.

Anyway, I'll try to work on expanding it a little bit to include other important elements. Ryu Kaze 12:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

By the way, you're quite mistaken on one count. Yu Yevon was not known as "Yu Yevon" until after the whole Sin thing. It specifically says in the timeline of FFX Ultimania Omega that he becomes Yu Yevon after summoning Dream Zanarkand. Also, "Ebon Ju" (his Japanese name) means quite simply "Ebon's curse". Ryu Kaze 13:30, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I've finished adjusting the story. Your suggestions were good, Silence, and I think they've improved the layout a bit. I dropped the merchandise section because -- with how large this page has gotten -- it was just dead weight. I'll see about getting some new screenshots of the gameplay, and then I think we should be good from here on out. Ryu Kaze 15:17, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've added new images of the field map, battle system, sphere grid, album soundtrack cover and the cover of Final Fantasy X-2. I think we should be good on images. Ryu Kaze 16:14, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I changed my mind and placed some new images in the Plot section. Ryu Kaze 16:42, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I apologize if any of my arguments gave the impression of "accusations of intentionally omitting information for an agenda's sake, or outright incompetence"; I absolutely did not intend to imply anything of the sort. On the contrary, I've been pretty impressed by the article so far; my comments were more of a criticism of the peer-review and FAC process than of the editors. :) And that criticism seems valid: although an important aspect of those processes is to ensure that cruft or bloat doesn't infect the article, an even more important aspect is to ensure that the article is comprehensive and well-written on all points, and they seem to have failed entirely in that respect. It's completely understandable that the article would have some deficiencies if commenting editors cared more about superficial appearance (e.g., "this section is X paragraphs long, cut it") than about the actual contents and flow of the article. But, I'm not here to point fingers, I'm here to help fix the error: we can easily keep the storyline section about as long as it is now without omitting 80% of the game's actual plotline, if we simply make some judicious summarizing.

By the way, I'm not sure I agree with your removal of the "merchandise" section. There's no other article on Wikipedia where that information can be added, and it seems a relevant and noteworthy aspect of the game's impact and success. Plus it was a pretty short section, wasn't it? So it wasn't a big burden on the article anyway. Am I missing something?

Oh, and thanks for correcting me on the Yu Yevon count. Most FFX fans, like myself, have not read Ultimania Omega. Consequently, it would greatly helpful if someone would add an inline reference to that work after the claim it supports.

One more thing: do make sure to update the Fair Use Rationales of any new images we add to the article. -Silence 20:13, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Apology accepted, and no hard feelings.

As you could probably guess, we got quite a lot of comments about length and the number of paragraphs during Peer Review and FAC. In fact, I would say we spent half of our time trimming, 25% working on adding more stuff to the reception section (which it really did need), and the other 25% clarifying lines in the gameplay areas (also needed).

I'll add the merchandise section back in. As you said, it didn't add much extra text. After checking, it only added 2kb or so. Hardly anything at all.

As for the Yu Yevon thing, I believe I have an in-line reference there for that now, so we should be okay. And, yeah, unfortunately, a lot of people haven't read that book because it's in Japanese and was never marketed outside Japan. Same is true of all of the Ultimania books, sadly. I've translated a pretty good bit from FFVII's and a little bit from X and X-2's (you can find these translations online or linked to on my user page if you're interested), but there's still so much else there that it would take a life time to translate. And that's just story-related stuff. Ryu Kaze 21:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Alright, the plot and setting sections are much-improved. Very nice job! And the image selection is much better now too; we've got screenshots of a normal battle and a normal walking-around area, giving readers a better idea of what playing the game is actually like. I'm delighted that the editors here are so responsive. If anyone has any concerns that the "plot" section is a bit too long now, there are a variety of ways we could trim it down without losing much (in particular, we can remove or further summarize some of the info that's mentioned in both the "mythology" and "plot" sections, and we could consider moving some of the backstory/history information on Yevon and all to another section, like "mythology"). I think that aside from a little tinkering, though, there's not much left that needs fixing.
• With that out of the way, the main omission I see in this article is that it provides next to no information on the game's 7 main, playable characters. Although it provides sufficient information on their abilities (though I'm a bit wary of assigning those character classes to them that the Character section uses to denote their abilities, since they're never actually referred by most of those classes in the game itself, and I'm not sure what their source is—hopefully its from Ultimania or something, and not original research!), and the Story section gives the most important details on their backstories (e.g. that Rikku is Yuna's cousin, that Auron is an unsent, that Wakka runs a blitzball team, etc.), it provides next to nothing on their personalities, arguably some of the most important information to know about the game considering how much dialogue all the players get throughout it. At least a couple of words on each character, explaining their general personality or mode of behavior, would be a big help there; I'm sure that that sort of information is what most people would expect to find in a "Characters" section anyway.
• Also, we should certainly link to the articles of each of the seven main characters in the "Characters" section; hiding the links in the middle of a lengthy set of paragraphs in the "Gameplay" section is unnecessarily inconveniencing our readers. It is infinitely less important to avoid linking to a page twice than it is to ensure that links to important pages are made obvious. Remember that the vast majority of readers will not read the entire page, start to finish, top to bottom, in one systematic sweep, but will only skim or focus on certain sections. And I've never seen a character section before that didn't provide links to detailed information on the major characters anyway, where such links existed. -Silence 22:35, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll see if I can address any of this that's left over. I really don't think we're going to be able to get much in the way of personality information in there, though. I'm also not too sure if we should try. That seems like something the character articles themselves would be better suited toward. Of course, we're supposed to be comprehensive, but at the same time, we don't want it to look like we're all over the place. Flow and coherency and all that.

Glad you're delighted about the responsiveness, by the way. If there's something we're not, it's slow (unless we're eating, sleeping or dead). Ryu Kaze 22:46, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The individual character articles should be used for in-depth information about the characters, but that should not preclude mentioning basic information about them in the Final Fantasy X article. Such articles should be used as a tool to assist readers who want to learn bonus information about the characters in question, not an obstacle standing in the way of our presenting even the most basic details to interested readers in this article.

This principle of "summarization here, details there" applies to both story and gameplay features. For example, Final Fantasy X should mention that Auron is adept at penetrating enemies' defenses, whereas Auron should go into detail on what specific abilities Auron uses (the various Breaks) and on his armor-piercing weapons (the katana). Likewise, Final Fantasy X should mention that Auron is taciturn and matter-of-fact (or something along those lines), and give the most important details on his backstory (that he's unsent, was a guardian of Braska, etc.), while Auron should go into detail on Auron's history, character evolution, mannerisms, personality traits, and even some noteworthy quotations of his. It's a matter of detail; this article should certainly not give unnecessary details on the characters, but to ignore the personality and general behavior of the main characters altogether, and especially of Tidus and Yuna, is a mistake.

I also don't understand why you think that this will be a difficult addition to make, nor why you think it would in any way interrupt the flow or coherency of the overall article; personalities of the main characters in the "characters" section are incredibly easy to segue into and out of, much more so than a large number of the plot elements recently added to the articles (I'm still rather proud of how I was able to transition efficiently from pyreflies to summoners to aeons to Sin to Yevon, in record time :D). I could probably write up a simple, brief description of the personalities of the 7 main characters in 5 minutes, easy, then insert that paragraph into the beginning of the "personality" section with only a little fiddling with the current beginning there. And it obviously belongs in the article, in one form or another. -Silence 23:13, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I decided to take out most of the character class identifiers and replace that part with personality info. Looks better this way. Ryu Kaze 23:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Looks like there might have been an edit conflict there. Hope you saw my message below yours. Ryu Kaze 23:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Sorry, I was at work most of the day o.O. Thanks for the comments and clarification about the inclusionist agenda. I'm a mergist, which is somewhere in the middle. Neverthelss, I can understand such large amounts of detail being included in the story section of a game with such a deep backstory as FFX (wheras FFVIII is more character/immediate plot driven with little backstory). I did use your suggestions in the Final Fantasy VIII article, which now covers all the major story arcs. And yes, I agree; the merchandise section should be included back into the article — there are plenty of featured articles over 50 KB, and I doubt anyone will put this article on FARC because of length. — Deckiller 02:48, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Audio section

I feel that the soundtrack section should probably remain seperate of the merchandise (in the audio section), since it primarily covers the development and description of the music, not just the soundtrack itself. — Deckiller 01:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

While it the game is noted for its audio, I didn't think it warranted it's own section. I'll go with the majority on this one. ~ Flooch 01:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Top 20 Games

I removed the link to the top 20 games list, and reworded it as one of the best selling games of all time, because, as per that link, it isn't one of the top 20 anymore. I'd guess it's about 22nd or 23rd now, but the list stopped at 20. [[1]] --PresN 17:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

You were right to change the wording in that it didn't make sure to note that it wasn't among that list any longer (as the reference in the opening does). Ryu Kaze 18:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Critical Response

First, congratulations on getting a featured article. This section gives the impression that Edge and Gamer.no are just as credible as sources as Famitsu. I realize finding particular sources that did not like the game as much as most is difficult, but it would be better to present criticisms from more respected sources despite their general high praise of the game. Gamespot's review for instance mentions how linear the game is, and with regard to dialogue, "when it tries to be funny, sounds forced and falls flat." I realize this is nit-picking a great article, but would you give as much weight to MTV's reviews of movies as those of Roger Ebert? Oh wait, that's what Rotten Tomatoes does. Varmintx 10:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I can't comment on Gamer.no's notablity within its country of origin, but Edge is considered by most — readers and game developers alike — to be the most professional gaming magazine in the world, and partly because they are so hard assed when it comes to reviewing a game. They don't rave and throw around flowery praise without ever explaining what's so good about it. If they like something, chances are good it's innovative or handles the cliches really well. I assure you, if any of them deserve to be on there, it's Edge. Ryu Kaze 12:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I made the assumption that if Edge was famous, I would have heard of it. Also, their review of FF10 does not appear on Game Rankings further adding to my ignorance of them. Still, could someone vouch for Gamer.no? Varmintx 00:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't know if you've heard of Metacritic or not, but they basically do the same thing as Game Rankings, and mention of Edge's review is there. As for Gamer.no, while I still can't personally vouch for it (I only know what I've been told where it's concerned), it, at the least, adds some variety to the reviews. It also makes mention of the linearity, which is a notable criticism of the game and needs to be in there somehow. Ryu Kaze 02:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• Edge Has to be easily the most respected game mag in the world, when they were interviewing the block behind killer 7 the first thing he mention was the scathing review it had had. saying "everyone had been talking about it"

Seriously, Gamer.no is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It has to go. Why is there mention of the ratigns it got in ENGLISH reviews, rather than bscure norweigan reviews? The entire page is tainted.--84.66.107.151 02:46, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

As far as the Gamer.no section, why all the comparisons to Metal Gear Solid 2? Is that really necessary in an article about Final Fantasy X? And from a larger perspective, should a magazine that judges a game solely against (what was at the time) the most graphically complex available be considered trustworthy?

Bootleg DVD info

There is an image of the back cover of a bootleg DVD included in the article which I removed, but has been restored. Rather than get into an edit war, here are the reasons for believing the DVD to be unofficial:

It is not listed in any official SquareEnix catalogue.

It is not listed on any legitimate retail website such as amazon.co.jp

The SquareEnix logo is missing. This would be legally required on any official release.

Other contractually required elements on the cover are also missing, e.g. a Dolby logo

The barcode is incorrectly formatted.

The audio options state that the DVD has Japanese audio with English and Chinese subtitles, which is implausible for a Japanese release.

The text mixes English, Chinese and Japanese wording.

Weeksjh 13:29, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that there was an official DVD, and the owner of that particular copy believes that to be the one. Even with a degree reasonable doubt, I don't think it fit to remove the image without being sure that it's not the real thing. Thanks for the concern, though, and I'll see if I can find anything to help us determine if it's authentic. Ryu Kaze 19:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I've asked Renmiri to see if there's anything on the case to help us determine its authenticity. We'll have to wait to hear back from here. Even if it's a bootleg, we can possibly work it into the article as that's rather notable. Ryu Kaze 20:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• I got it on ebay. As for the material itself, it clearly has the ENTIRE set of game scenes, digitally enhanced and tagged "M" for manga so the original source had to be a Square Enix product. I saw your contentions and your points may be valid. i.e. I don't really know enough to say my particular copy is or isn't a bootleg. I was told it is legit and the 3 language deal is because it is a US Seller version of the main DVD launched in Japan. Sounded OK to me Renmiri 19:00, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
• Is the 'M for Manga' a stylised green 'M' as shown in this article?: http://www.digital.anime.org.uk/piratefaq.html#dvd

Unfortunately yes, as this logo identifiade as a pirated DVD distributor is exactly the one on my DVDs as it can be seen clearly here Image:Hypello.jpg. I stand corrected. We should indeed remove the DVD cover from the article. Renmiri 02:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

What the heck?

Somebody deleted this whole article! Can someone restore it? (it's featured article day for FFX, too. This ain't good) Buster Sword 14:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)Buster Sword