Talk:Fasting and abstinence of the Coptic Orthodox Church

The reason behind the correction of the causes of each fast was the following:

1) The fasting of Christ on the mountain for 40 days was never the reason for the Advent fast. I have no idea where you got this teaching. It is dogmatically known in the entire Orthodox and Catholic (or any Apostolic Church) that the reception of the Word of God in the flesh was symbolised and metaphorical to the reception of the word of God in the Ten Commendments by the Prophet Moses, so when in the fulness of time came, as did Moses fast to receive the Ten Commendments, we, fast for the same period (40 days only) in preparation to receive the Word of God in flesh (Incarnate). Any other definition and reasons is foreign and corrupt from the Orthodox teaching and the Apostolic Tradition. Please refere to the books.

2) Adding the 3 days at the begining of the Advent fast is ok, but it must be noted very clearly, for not confusing or misguiding anyone with an overzealous sentiment of ascetism that the Advent fast is 43 days!

3)The Lent proper is 40 days and not 55 days, One must be correct and distinct in providing the proper description of any grouped fasting periods if so, as in this case. The 7 days before Lent are preparatory, they were added by the Church in its wisdom for many reasons, depending on different traditions, some say it was to compensate for the non abstinent fasting Saturdays and Sundays of the period of Lent, since food is permitted after Liturgy's communion in the morning, others say as a period of gradual withdrawal from a portion of the dietary components to enable the person to start the Lent without drastic abstination periods and dietary nutrients. In short, it is still not the Lent proper.

4) The Holy Week is a fast of its own and it was as such for a long period at the begining of Christianity, until it was later joined with Lent. Accordingly, it should not be treated as a part of Lent, because it is not so. Any teaching or any culture that stipulates other than the above mentioned is foreign from Orthodox teaching.

Please accept this correction gracefully and verify my statements in the Church books. I know that it has been a habit in many Coptic Orthodox Churches, regretably so, to teach what you originally had in the page, but this is not correct or according to the Apostolic Tradition of the Orthodox Church. Orthopraxia December 24th, 2006

General cleanup and reorganization of the article

I just performed a general revision of the article based on the liturgical books I owe. The information I was uncertain about was kept as is until I find sources that either back or refute it. Some of the changes I made include:

• Removing the reference to the Coptic Calendar as Julian Calendar. This is irrelevent to the topic. If people are interested in knowing what the Coptic Calendar is, they can simply click on it and read about it on the appropriate page.
• Removing reference to the mainstream Orthodox Churches! I am sorry but who is to say what is mainstream and what is not? I also removed reference to cooking with wine in other church traditions. We are talking about the Coptic tradition here, and if people are interested in knowing about fasting in the other churches they can do so on the appropriate page.
• The week following Coptic Christmas is NOT fast-free. Wednesdays and Fridays are still observed as fasting days.
• Fasting in expectation of partaking of the Holy Communion does not necessarily begin at midnight. Nine hours before the partaking is the rule that is followed in church today.

Otherwise, I made small changes to grammar/spelling, and removed redundant information. I apologize if my tone sounds a little aggressive. I must stress the fact that I completely appreciate and respect the effort that all the other users have put into this article, particularly Orthopraxia and Ghaly. Let's just keep it Coptic Orthodox as opposed to Orthodox in general. Thanks. --130.189.15.61 21:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I thank you for making some reorganization in the content of this Page. I however disagree with you regarding some issues:

1) The reference of the Coptic Calendar as a Julian Calendar is very relevent and important for the following reasons:

• a- The Coptic Calendar has been equivalent to the Julian calendar from the time the Church started using it till the early 20th century, when the Egyptian government adapted the Gregorian calendar. In this prespective, the Coptic Orthodox Church was and still is an "Old calendrist" Church.
• b- It is important that readers understand that the differences in Churches Feasts celebration are mainly due to the change to the Gregorian calendar and not that each church has a different calendar and feasts dates on their own without justification.

2) I don't quite understand what do you mean by mainstream Orthodox and who is not. Mainstream Orthodox are the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox.

3) Reference to cooking with oil and using wine or not is relevent because it used to be so before the Arab invasion and the limited useage of wine in Egypt afterwards for obvious reasons and because it is a comparative and educational tool to demonstrate minor differences in two Orthodox churches traditions in matter of oil and wine usage during fasting periods.

4) As far as the period betwen Christmas and Theophany, it used to be fast free and I will research this again. There has been several changes and decisions in the last 30 years or so in the Coptic Orthodox Church and this might be one of them. I may be wrong.

5) Fasting before partaking of the communion used to be from midnight till the time of the liturgy, the rule of 9 hours applies when the liturgy is at 5 am or 6 am, then the minimum required time of fasting is 9 hours before. This minimum time also applies to the fasting of the celebrant priest and the altar used for the liturgy too. Meaning no celebrant priest can celebrate liturgy in less than 9 hours fasting from the time last eaten, same applies to the altar, it should have "fasted" (not been used) for at least 9 hours.

Orthopraxia, 4:30 pm Pacific Time, February 10th, 2007

Dear Orthopraxia; Thank you again for your response. To answer your points:

• I understand the importance for the reader to understand that the Copts are old calendrists. But maybe we can mention this without making reference to the Julian Calendar. I feel this is more appropriate because referring to the Julian Calendar is rather confusing, and the terminology is not even used in the Coptic Orthodox Church. And by just adding the term Julian, we're not telling the average reader that the Copts are old calendrists. So again, maybe it's easier to just mention it blatantly without reference to the Julian Calendar. If the reader is interested in the Coptic Calendar per say, then they can refer to the appropriate article for that.

• The article before the changes I made, had a sentence saying:
  • According to the Coptic Orthodox tradition of fasting periods, the diet is mainly vegan, cooked with either oil or water since there is no particular discipline for days where oil or wine are allowed or not as in the mainstream Orthodox Church tradition

So, this is putting the Coptic Orthodox Church on one side and the mainstream Orthodox Church on the other, thus suggesting that the Coptic Orthodox Church is NOT a mainstream Orthodox Church. This is why I changed the sentence.

• We can certainly mention the rules of cooking with wine in the Coptic Orthodox Church tradition before the Arab invasion. Then we can say that this has changed and is no longer customary to cook with wine. But the article is not a place to compare different cooking traditions (I checked fasting in other Orthodox churches for example and saw nothing comparative in them). As I see it, the article is about fasting in the Coptic Orthodox Church, not about how different it is from the fasting traditions of other Orthodox Churches.

• Please do check on the fasting between Christmas and Theophany. I checked again in Coptic Orthodox calendars and saw nothing that says this period is fasting-free. We can certainly mention it as something that has changed in the last 30 years if you feel this is the case.

• I checked in the book called "Al Kharida Al Nafissa" (a book about church rules and rituals for the Coptic Orthodox Church) and saw that the 9 hours rules is the only one that is mentioned. Nothing about starting to fast at midnight. Which sources do you use?

Thanks. --Lanternix 21:02, 11 February 2007 (UTC)