Talk:Fang Zhouzi

POV tag

I added the POV tag to the article because I think the article lacks details about things Fang is apparently known for (criticising alleged fraud in academia, etc.) and focuses on some particular aspects that have attracted controversy. wctaiwan (talk) 15:26, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

There's a fair number of untapped sources; I'll try to integrate more information, then take down the tag. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 03:11, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

New Threads

As for how Fang staged a little coup d'état to wrestle the control of the publication to his own hands in 1997, and removing the other co-founders, please refer to here, in which all sources come from Fang's own account of the incident. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 林木森森 (talk • contribs) 20:26, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

It would be much more helpful to readers, and particularly editors, if English sources could be found. Particularly for claims like this.

I've trimmed the content regarding his comments on Christianity. It is enough to note that he has criticized and a thumbnail sketch of some specifics. We don't need extensive quotations, particularly when he's not known for his criticisms of religion. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 17:58, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you. Unfortunately this website is too obscure to be noticed by the English-speaking world. However, this website has an entry in the Chinese wikipedia ([1]), on which it is stated that it was founded by "方舟子等海外华人" ("Fang and some overseas Chinese people"), so I guess it's pretty settled. Furthermore, Fang wrote an article about the birth of the website and referenced it in the intro page of the website,in which he clearly states that it was founded by him and another person called 竹人.--林木森森 (talk) 02:00, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid it is still better to include some of his original remarks here as it reflects his writing style, which is a very important part of his work and identity. As for "he's not known for his criticisms of religion", that is not true. He is famous for that, especially in the early days of the Chinese internet (90's). Such was his influence that Chinese Christians even devoted an entire website just to refute his one article. In fact, even now his articles are still heavily used by those who are against Christianity (see the Chinese wikipedia entry for Jesus, for example). Thus, I think we should be more elaborate when we write about his anti-religion views. Thank you.--林木森森 (talk) 02:39, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. I think quoting his remarks like that have the effect of discrediting him by virtue of the unpleasantness of the things he says, against the spirit of WP:NPOV. I would be more comfortable with it if secondary coverage of his criticism of Christianity in a major publication can be found, on which we can then base our coverage. Furthermore, the issue of undue weight still exists. I recognise that the media climate in China may make finding outspoken criticism in a major publication more difficult, but we should err on the side of conservativeness in our articles. wctaiwan (talk) 03:01, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't think quoting his words would "discredit" him, as long as the words convey his ideas accurately. What you find unpleasant may not be so to other people (e.g. Fang and his followers on New Threads). Indeed, all his views are "unpleasant" to one group of people or another, e.g. his view on Traditional Chinese Medicine has made him many enemies among the practitioners. But that does not mean if we quote his original words regarding TCM, we are discrediting him, although they are no less scathing than his comments on Christianity. In fact, his words on Christianity serves as a perfect example of his style: hyperbole is the hallmark of his writings. So if we include his own words here, we are painting a more accurate picture of his style.--林木森森 (talk) 09:16, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

As for " I would be more comfortable with it if secondary coverage of his criticism of Christianity in a major publication can be found, on which we can then base our coverage", unfortunately Mainland China's state-controlled press steer carefully away from religious controversies (a fact you may have noted), so if by "major publication" you mean newspapers and books, there would be scarcely any. Otherwise, a good starting point is Jidian's article here in 2005 and the links in it. Jidian is an early user of New Threads and has debated Fang on this issue for more than 10 years.--林木森森 (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I have again brought this up at the BLP noticeboard. wctaiwan (talk) 17:05, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Wikis are not suitable sources for any page on wikipedia, and particularly not BLP. I would not say the question is settled, I will try to confirm the information later today.

Actually Fang himself said on the website that it was founded by him and another person called 竹人 [article (it's in Chinese, alas). Never mind, I think 'President' is a better description.--林木森森 (talk) 08:31, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

It is enough to note that he has criticized Christianity, his major source of fame is for science, not religious polemics. He may have been famous among internet circles for his criticisms of religion (and a source for that would be necessary) but his fame beyond that is for his science reporting (and being attacked with a hammer). To date your comments look more like original research, and I would like to see more third-party sources that explicitly discuss his work on religion rather than cobbling together first-hand writings and personal analysis. If a comment on his writing style is desired, then find a third-party source that comments on it - do not include numerous primary source examples that you think illustrates this. That Bokee page is in Chinese (a problem) and further looks like a blog post, which is not suitable for WP:BLP articles. I'm reviewing the changes over the past couple weeks, I will continue later on today. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 15:00, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

I've made some changes to reflect his current position as president of the website. I've also trimmed some unsourced personal details and the excessive content about Pong Fu. We are not the news or an indiscriminate collection of information. The sorts of details here might be better placed in Fu's wikipedia page, but it's too much irrelevant information here. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 15:56, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate your feedback. I will try to find some third-party source that comments on his writing style, for a start, how about this English translation of an article on "Yangcheng Evening News" (a major newspaper in Guangzhou, China)?--林木森森 (talk) 07:40, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

On the religious issue: Chinese media, being all state-owned, seldom discuss anything about religion because it is a 'sensitive topic'. So if by 'third party sources' you mean the media, I can't find any that explicitly discusses Christianity, let alone its critics. Given such special circumstances, I think it is reasonable to use internet sources, like this one here (in English) . --林木森森 (talk) 08:31, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Many Chinese media are not state-owned like [2][3][4][5]. I think you are talking about China 20 years before. --凡其_Fanchy 08:05, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

On his writing style: I'm not putting comments on his writing style in the main article unless there is third party source. --林木森森 (talk) 08:31, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

As for the language issue, you may type the URL in Google translate to get a rough idea of what the webpage is talking about. You may ask User:Wctaiwan for confirmation since he knows Chinese. --林木森森 (talk) 08:31, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

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Nobel prize?

There is mention of some Nobel prize in article. I am confused about it. Request experienced editors to correct accordingly. Thanks in advance. --Abhijeet Safai (talk) 13:52, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

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