Talk:Fa'afafine/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Untitled comments

Paul Gauguin "de: Contes barbares"

The French Wikipedia uses Image:Paul Gauguin - Contes barbares (1902).jpg (Paul Gauguin "de: Contes barbares") to illustrate their article. Does anyone know if this painting is, in fact, of Mahu? ^BlankVerse 10:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I am just back from a trip to Samoa where a Fa'afafine managed the house I was staying in. We spoke at length about Fa'afafine role in Samoan Society. Information in this article about Fa'afafine marriages is simply wrong. Fa'afafine do not marry and Samoan society would not tolerate that. It is true that some fa'afafine have sexual liasons with both men and women, but these are never stable relationships and, while commmon, these are not approved in Samoan society. The article is correct that if a man has a sexual encounter with a fa'afafine, the man is not considered gay. When I visited Samoa in 1998, "dating" between teenaged boys and girls was unheard of in Samoa, because the girls were too controlled and protected. At that time I heard of teenaged boys going to fa'fafine (either their age or clearly adult) for oral sex. This was not really approved, but was not considered gay and was not considered child abuse even if the accommodating fa'afafine was much older. With the coming of cell phones and texting, on this recent trip I saw much more boy-girl interaction among teens, which might lead to one less role for the fa'afafine. We'll see. The truth is that very little accurate information is available about sex life of fa'afafine.Frog one (talk) 20:42, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I just deleted the incorrect reference to marriage. Much else in "Role in Society" paragraph that I know to be true from talking with fa'afafine, but don't know of sources to attribute. Frog one (talk) 20:18, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

This should probably be merged with: Fafafini —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.90.237.194 (talk) 00:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I would recommend dumping the fafafini piece, which misspells the word, and reproduces a lot of mistaken information about fa'afafine (e.g. that they are raised as girls by their families). When I have time, I will attempt to expand the fa'afafine piece. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.216.224.162 (talk) 23:28, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I would also recommend not merging fa'afafine with fafafini, and dropping the fafafini piece, as fafafini is simply a misspelling of fa'afafine. I'd refer every one to G.B. Milner's Samoan Dictionary, Polynesian Press, or any of the literature on fa'afafine. Taulapapa (talk) 18:42, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Definitely combine the two pieces. They have almost completely different information and putting them together would just make a better article in general. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.184.235.179 (talk) 01:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

This article is far from having an NPOV, in fact it feels like it was written by an activist of some sort. It also needs in-text citations, particularly if it wants to keep parts about how they are seen by outsiders and their contributions to the community. I'd do some of it myself, but I lack HTML skills.Fireproof88 (talk) 03:47, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Copy/paste from NYT article?

Almost the entirety of the "Fa'afafine role in Samoan society" section is copied verbatim from the "Can Animals be Gay?" article recently featured on the New York Times. Someone should rewrite or delete that information, whichever is more appropriate. The Mach Turtle (talk) 12:09, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually, if you look at the revision history, the timing seems to be the other way around. Someone should contact the New York Times about this, no? I noticed the same similarity and was wondering, but the text we're concerned with here seems to predate the Times article by about five days. The coincidental dates are certainly intriguing. gloin (talk) 08:07, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't know how you worked that out. The NYT article is dated March 29, and the Wikipedia edit is dated March 31. It needs to be rewritten or deleted.88.189.155.8 (talk) 08:06, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure? I still don't really know how to read revision histories for the life of me, but the near-identical text cites the article as the source (which makes me believe that NYT said it first). The Mach Turtle (talk) 04:18, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

In any case, the article implicitly cites Paul Vasey, a researcher who has coauthored several studies on the fa'afafine. I have not read this source, but perhaps a fuller explanation can be found here:

Bartlett, N. H. & Vasey, P. L (2006). A Retrospective study of childhood gender-atypical behavior in Samoan fa'afafine. Archives of Sexual Behavior.

Nschoem 01:28, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Poorly written

This article is really bad written in many ways, and even the introduction is difficult to understand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.32.151.153 (talk) 15:20, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Additionally, I have a big problem with this part: "It is a mistake to attribute a Western interpretation and mislabel the fa’afafine as “gay” or “homosexual”. Fa'afafine have a varied sexual life, where they may have sex with women but mostly with men. It is taboo among the fa'afafine to have sex with another fa'afafine." Wouldn't fa'afafine still fall towards the homosexual end of the Kinsey scale?

So basically they are transsexuals. Do they cross dress as well? There's no information about what makes them fa'afafine aside from their personality and doesn't really sound like a third gender and but more like a cultural identity. There are other examples in other cultures about feminine males so adding a similarity would be good. Why is it impossible to label them with a western interpretation? Not everything south east asian is mystical and can be explained in "western" terms. I really don't like when articles or authors try to assert that something cannot be understood or explained by those not inside the culture. --64.186.172.194 (talk) 17:48, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

My 2c Worth

When I was in Samoa the word was pronounced "fuffa/feeney", and pronounced quickly. "fa' afa" would have a shorter and sharper second "a", and a tiny glottal pause between the two. Article is a bunch of politically correct humbug, born from some anthropology dept. Samoan mothers will pick a young son to stay at home and do the house work, instead of a daughter. Always treated as a daughter, they grow up to be effeminate ... usually gay. Hang around Otto's or Mt Via Night Club and you'll see. They worst insult is to use their real name, as one fafafini will do to another when cruising for action! 203.219.71.140 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:23, 1 February 2012 (UTC).

Fa'afafine in New Zealand

I'm new here so bear with me but the last paragraph og this article read:

The New Zealand Samoan community sees fa'afafine as 'a gay community that is openly homosexual.'

This statement may be true (I have no idea) but while the author of the source artcle may be reliable (The New Zealand Herald), the assertion that the Tongan people of New Zealand see the Fa'afafine as homosexual (as opposed to a third gender which is what this article mainly tries to assert) was taken from a quote in the NZH article from a Tongan mother of three whose name is given but credentials are not.

I think this is an interesting topic but poorly sourced statements give less validity to the article. This statement was tacked on at the end and seemed so odd I checked the source and it was about gay marriage in NZ with just that one quote, from a seemingly random woman which was then presented as fact in the article because it was sourced.

Sorry to go on but it annoyed me enough to make my first revision as when I'm reading articles I sometimes take as fact info that has been sourced without reading the source (if I had time for that, I wouldn't be reading a wiki article) Mrjack900 (talk) 09:04, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

References

Pronunciation

Could someone help me with the pronunciation of Fa'afafine? It would be worthy if someone could add the pronunciation to the article. Amin.Abak (talk) 10:55, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

In Samoan pronunciation, the ' represents a glottal stop (IPA [ʔ]) and accent is presumably on the penultimate... AnonMoos (talk) 08:53, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

There was a Fa'afafine character in Shortland Street many years back and they pronounced it 'faffa feeny'. Smurfmeister (talk) 10:07, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Inaccuracies

As some Samoan editors have commented nearly 10 years ago, this article largely does not accurately represent Fa’afafine, a category (largely) created for gender nonconforming boys who, in a western context, would grow up to be gay men. Samoa is a deeply religious society, and this third gender is a method of incorporating gay men (as well as what we in the west would call an Androphilic transwoman). You’re either selected in childhood or you’re not. Interestingly, this article actually cites Paul Vasey (arguably the world’s most esteemed researcher of Fa’afafine, and a friend to many in Samoa), but makes no mention of the fact that in a western context - most Fa’afafine would be gay men. The research of Fa’afafine has provided a wealth of research in sexual orientation and gender identity research, particularly with regards to their role in evolutionary biology. I will make some changes when I can. Sxologist (talk) 16:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)