Talk:FC Chornomorets Odesa/Archive 1

Why revert?

They call themselves "Chornomorets", why are you reverting? You should keep personal issues out of contents.--Kwame Nkrumah 20:25, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

...isn't that what the article is currently called?.. --Palffy 20:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

And it should be called FC Chernomorets Odessa, if it not were for your reverts.--Kwame Nkrumah 21:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Let me explain this once again, you have NO expertise here. Here are some reasons. Here is some more..http://www.shakhtyor.donbass.com/ is the official website of Shakhtar Donetsk. If you were able to read Russian, you would see that the title of the page says "Shakhtyor", the url of the page says "Shakhtyor" and the main text in the middle says "Shakhtyor". THE TEAM IS NEVER REFERED TO AS SHAKHTAR unless its on pages refering to Soviet football. The same goes for all of the Ukrainian teams. The reason that they do call themselves that is because this way (and this is my most likely guess) is because they have visitors and fans from all over the Former Soviet Union and abroad who are unable to understand Ukrainian. Russian has 250mill+ speakers worldwide, Ukrainian is probably limited to about 55mill if that. --Palffy 21:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I SEE HERE THIS TEAM IS PRESENTED AS "Черноморeц", NOT "Чорноморець" AS YOU CLAIM. Furthermore, the registered site (under ".ua" tld) is "chernomorets". Added later They even use "e" spelling on their crests: [1]

And this is the same issue as Kyiv/Kiev: guess which version has been set?--Kwame Nkrumah 21:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Doing a google check, Chernomorets has more points than Chornomorets. IMHO, Chernomorets should be the name used as it is the most common and as people probably refer to it as such (I believe so). The Kiev/Kyiv issuse is different. Whenever I am in Kiev, I see that publications list the team as Dynamo Kyiv not Dinamo Kiev, and people use the first much more than the second name variant (Kiev). —dima ^/sb.tk/ 21:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

DDima, but you also have to examine the google hits. Chernomorets is also a resort in Bulgaria, another soccer club from Russia, etc. This is however, the equivalent of choosing between Red Star Belgrade and Crevna Zvezda Belgrade. --Palffy 21:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

On another note, there is a reason why both UEFA and PFL, the two governing bodies of soccer in Ukraine and Europe both use Chornomorets. See here and here. --Palffy 21:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, given the links you provided us, I now agree with you about which name should stay. —dima ^/sb.tk/ 22:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you change Dynamo Kyiv and Shakhtar Donetsk while you're at it? (MAJOR SARCASM) ;)) --Palffy 21:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

You started an edit war on this, not me. And here you put smileys, in other places you request protection and ask to investigate on me. Nice. (And I am still "banned" to write on your talk page)--Kwame Nkrumah 21:21, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

You have no expertise on this!!! Why can't you accept that what I have presented is right? I will gladly wait for others to side on this, but you are really unmanageable. What's interesting is that I wasn't even the one who put a checkuser request for you. I made a promise that I wouldn't do such a thing and I have kept it. You on the otherhand, are the most lawless person I've seen on WP. --Palffy 21:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

From now on, you are dead to me.--Kwame Nkrumah 21:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Why are we even discussing this? The article plainly says (before any of these edits), Despite their official name was changed to "FC Chornomorets" (Ukrainian spelling) at 1991, many people refer to the club as "Chernomorets" (Russian spelling). --Palffy 21:55, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

"FC Chornomorets Odessa" is the offical and established name. --KPbIC 23:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I have unprotected the article as there's already been extensive discussion between Palffy and Kwame, and should the name of the article still be in question, please discuss it here instead of move warring. Thanks. Cowman109^Talk 03:15, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

WRONG. You unprotected AND moved the page. During my block, so I could not say anything against. Nice behaviour, b proud of yourself.--Kwame Nkrumah 12:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I moved it to be consistent with the beginning text, but yes I probably should not have moved it. I already responded to your note on my talk page, thank you. Cowman109^Talk 16:03, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Team Jersey

I have presented a Chornomorets jersey using the following picture which was taken on May 06, 2006 [2] in this edit. User: Kwame Nkrumah insists that it is light blue, presenting this photo, [3] and creating the following edit. Using Adobe photoshop, I have analyzed the colors presented on the jerseys and here are my results:

Approximate color of jersey in the pic provided by me Red:15 Green:28 Blue:34 HTML Code:0F1C22
Color of jersey in my edit Red:0 Green:0 Blue:0 HTML Code:000000
Approximate color of jersey in the pic provided by Kwame Nkrumah Red:56 Green:57 Blue:78 HTML Code:38394E
Color of jersey in Kwame Nkrumah edit Red:0 Green:0 Blue:80 HTML Code:000050

I am ok with either of the approximate colors presents, either 0F1C22 or 38394E, but not 000050 since that is too blue. The problem is that I feel that my jersey design, which is slightly different from Kwame's, is a better representation of the actual jersey (that is, striped shoulders), but the design won't handle these specific colors unless a new template is created.

Kwame also doesn't appear to accept my road jersey design either, which I have based on this. --Palffy 03:22, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

There must be an easier, verifiable method to determine the colors of the team without carefully examining photos - surely this is published somewhere? Cowman109^Talk 03:24, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the hint, Cowman109. [4], the Symbol section of Chornomorets official website states Официальные цвета клуба: синий-черный-белый, or Official club colors:blue-black-white. If you also examine the logos/flag, the colors support that statement as well. --Palffy 03:33, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Team Honors

User: Kwame Nkrumah has also disagreed with me that Runner-Up honors should not be included in the team page. There is great precendent for this and is in fact information that is vital to a team's reputation. Kwame has stated the following, "coming second is not to be reported in "honours" section, since no "honour" is awarded for 2nd place". Actually, the players in the top 3 clubs in the Ukrainian Premier League receive medals for helping their team finish successfully (Read end of history paragraph here, [5]). Additionally, numerous team pages have listed these honors, such as all of the Ukrainian football team pages, many of the premier European clubs [6], [7], [8], etc. --Palffy 03:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Re: Two categories removed

A user deleted Category:Buildings and structures in Ukraine and Category:Buildings and structures in Odessa Ukraine stating "This is a football club, not a building"

The second sentence states: "The club's home ground is the 35,000 capacity Tsentralnyi (Central) Stadium "Chornomorets" in the Black Sea city of Odessa." Odessaukrain 15:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Odessaukrain, please see Category:Football venues in Ukraine for stadiums. At this point there is no article on Chornomorets stadium, but once it's created, it should definitely go into the two categories you mentioned. --KPbIC 00:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually there is one, KPbIC. =) Tsentralnyi-Chornomorets Stadium --Palffy 01:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I didn't notice that. I've included to the stadium artice into the Odessa buildings category. --KPbIC 02:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for clarification. Odessaukrain 03:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move this page, per the discussion below. I note the suppport for changing the name to "Odesa" as well; however, the point in question is quite contentious, per recent discussions at Talk:FC Dynamo Kiev, Talk:FC Arsenal Kiev, and other pages. The development of a naming convention for such cases is currently being discussed at Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Naming convention for sports teams. I invite you to participate in the process there, and we can return to this at a later time if necessary. Dekimasuよ! 01:08, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

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The current name is very weird because if the Ukrainian spelling is preferred then it should be called 'Chornomorets OdeSa' and if Russian one is adopted then it should be 'ChErnomorets Odessa'. The current one is thus a combination. I propose to change it to 'Chernomorets Odessa' for the following reasons

• One can encounter only Черноморец Одесса/Chernomorets Odessa spelling at the club's offcial website
• Google results are overwhelmingly for this version 67,000 vs. 10,000
• The city is called Odessa in Wikipedia. Alæxis_¿question? 10:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Survey

• Oppose moving to FC Chernomorets Odessa, Support moving to FC Chornomorets Odesa.

1. First of all, I have much different Google results.. searching English language-only pages, I get 9,680 for "Chernomorets Odessa" and 4,670 for "Chornomorets Odesa"..
2. Second, both UEFA and FIFA use "FC Chornomorets Odesa."
3. Third, looking at Google News search results, I find that there are 242 ghits for "Chernomorets Odessa" and 205 ghits for "Chornomorets Odesa".. not a very big difference is it? —dima/talk/ 21:23, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Huh, it's really strange that when one searches for English results only he gets 4 times more results than when one searches for all results... Anyway, the 9300 to 4000 ratio (that we get adding "-wikipedia" to your searches) seems rather convincing for me. The Google news results you've brought also demonstrate that the variant I propose to move to is not less but more popular than the other one in the English-language press (including telegraph.co.uk, bbc and others [9]) Alæxis_¿question? 21:53, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose moving to FC Chernomorets Odessa, Do you know what Chornomorets means? Look it up. Bandurist (talk) 01:51, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose moving to Russian "Chernomorets". This article should be at Chornomorets Odesa, as noted above. (Preferably without FC but that's not too important.) - MTC (talk) 12:23, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
• Leave as is - why are all of these club name moves so important all of a sudden? They've worked fine for everyone for years.. --Palffy 16:38, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
• Neutral I believe that articles should be named to one standard. The problem here is that this article is at crossroads of several ones, though the UEFA and FIFA arguments seem quite overpowering. --Kuban Cossack 12:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose moving. The club is playing in Ukrainian championship under the existing name.Ans-mo (talk) 06:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose moving to "Chernomorets". The article should be Chornomorets Odesa, as noted on UEFA & FIFA. Stochil 15:16, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.