Talk:F.E.A.R. (video game)/Archive 1

  I took the liberty of archiving past discussions which do not seem to be still ongoing.
  Berserker79 10:16, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Which came first?

Throughout the game, Fettel states that he was there when you (the main character) were born. Assuming that is true, how can he be the second prototype?

His psychic linkup with Alma allow them to peruse each other's memories. He can't tell the difference between hers and his, as he himself stated and wondered when he first smacks you in the head with a wooden plank. CABAL 12:35, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

However, it's not Fettel telling you "You were born here, I was there", it's Fettel psychically projecting the voice of Charles Habeggars from his interrogation : "Why did you bring me here? Why did you bring me back?" 85.210.60.175 16:31, 12 November 2005 (UTC)gou

Spoiler Tag

I know there's a spoiler disclaimer, but does the initial description of the main character need to tell the ending of the game right there instead of giving a basic overview of him? The information seems improperly-placed. --207.190.229.94 15:27, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

elaboration on systems anyone?

the characters are nicely written, but I'd b happy if someone wrote stuff about it's technical spec. thx

Doom 3 Engine

I am pretty sure this is Monoliths own engine, based off NOLF. Where is the proof this is the DOOM 3 engine? Because it's not. Its a tweaked version of their earlier engine, and is completely stand alone.

---

Correct, the game uses the Lithtech: Jupiter EX engine. You can see examples of F.E.A.R. on the Lithtech site. All references to the DOOM 3 engine have been removed. - slothman

F.E.A.R.

To the people that keep changing what "F.E.A.R." stands for: It is First Encounter Assault Recon. It says it right on the box. The website confirms this as well. Please see the official site. K1Bond007 01:10, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

---

Actually, either way is correct. Both the following quotes are taken from the site:

"Vivendi Universal Games announced today that the single player demo for the eagerly anticipated, award winning PC title F.E.A.R.™ (First Encounter Assault and Recon) will be released globally on "F.E.A.R. Friday," August 5th, 2005."

and

"F.E.A.R. (First Encounter Assault Recon) is an intense combat experience with rich atmosphere and a deeply intense paranormal storyline presented entirely in first person. Be the hero in your own spine-tingling epic of action, tension, and terror... and discover the true meaning of fear."

Marketing isn't always correct. They make mistakes. The games intro (as seen in the demo) does not have an "and", nor does the box. That's about as official as it gets. K1Bond007 02:24, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

---

About the '...Armacham-built gunship transport helicopter...' seen throughout the game... that particular sentence makes it sound like it was a gunship that'd been rigged to be used as a transport. Well, fact is, it's actually both. I have no idea why they chose the helo they did, but it's a Mil Mi-24 Hind, a *Russian* Attack helocopter. Quite real, and it actually *does* double as a transport. Actually, the extra weight and size needed for it to be useable as a transport actually comprise its performance as a gunship, and in some instances can make it a bit unstable. No idea why they decided to use that for the clonetrooper helo, but the model is very detailed and very distinctive, so there's not a doubt in my mind that it's a Hind. Not sure how to work that in though, triple that since my brain's about nonfunctional since I'm so tired. -Graptor

Pardon about that, as I am mostly unfamiliar with Russian aircraft of any sort. Though I do seem to recall the telltalle Red Star insignia on the helicopter, but not pursuing that line of investigation any further. CABAL 12:39, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

"A significant number of the preview videos contain footage that did not make it into the final game, such as Alma appearing suddenly in the same elevator as the protagonist while the lights flickered." The bit in the elevator actually happens in the Armacham headquarters building, and I might add, it's creepy as heck. -Graptor

POV

The phrase "She may have appear to be a "banana" (yellow on the outside, white on the inside), due to her stong liking towards pizza when comparing with kimchi." in reference to Jin is either an incredibly ignorant misstep or a rather poor trolling attempt. Either way, It's POV and has no place in this article.

I'm not going to touch it but a whole crapload of this article is in danger of being cut as 'fancruft'.  freshgavin TALK   05:36, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Organization

I think we need to organize this page a bit... Most of the storyline information is there, which is good, but it's all incorporated into the "Characters" section, which makes it confusing, and out of order. The actual "Story" section merely consists of a quote, then some gameplay information about bullet time and other features (which needs to be moved), and then another paragraph about Japanese horror movies.

I think we should start moving most of the storyline information up to the "Story" section, and keep the character profiles shorter. And I'm moving that sentence about the game's features up above the contents, since we don't have a "gameplay" section or anything... --Wikivader 17:28, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Wanna make a section specifically devoted to and explaining the not-so-happy family of Alice Wade, Alma Wade, Harlam Wade, Paxton Fettel and the New Guy? Would make categorization easier, and would lessen the load on the primary storyline section since much of it revolves around them anyway. CABAL 08:42, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Jin Sun-Kwon

The following portion of text has been removed at least twice from the "Jin Sun-Kwon" paragraph, but honestly I can't see why:
Her parents were from Seoul, but she was born and raised in the USA, hence her complete lack of any Asian accent.
This is no POV or guesswork, since Jin herself reveals these bits of her past while talking with Holiday, after she has been wonded in the helicopter crash. The current revision of the article simply mentions Jin is Korean, but I think the above text should be put back into the paragraph, unless someone supplies a good reason for not doing it. Berserker79 10:29, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Alma (and other ponderings)

There has been many comments regarding the file with "Alma Wade" on it, and it presumably indicating that Alma was Harlan's daughter.. But what about the computer in the vault? It says: "System analysis initiated. Subject: Alma Barrow. Error. No life signs detected." (14728.wav)

What about the early parts about the waste water coming from Auburn, "something in the water", and "...it's pretty clear that whatever happened to Auburn wasn't because of the usual socioeconomic factors. The downturn was actually a symptom of people avoiding or leaving the area for other reasons, which we'll summarize in our presentation. One more thing: from what we can tell, it all started about 20 years ago. I'll let you know when we've got a clearer picture." Was this because of the "something in the water", because Alma was haunting it, or something else?

The Origin facility.. Other than to shut Alma in.. What was it for? Theres a lot of equipment and large machinery and things, but why would any of that be any use for telepathy type experiments? Where did all the cloned soldiers come from? Nothing looked particularly relevant to that in Origin, so did they come from somewhere else?

"Turns out Armacham bought the site from the government back in the '50s. Get this. There used to be some kind of underground military complex in that area. I don't think Armacham was interested in what was on the property. They wanted what was under it. And I'm guessing it has something to do with Origin." Presumably they didn't just want an empty bunker or something, so what was down there that they wanted?

Asylum: Somehow I doubt they went to all the trouble of creating a load of textures and models and things, just for one multiplayer map... Maybe there was going to be an asylum somewhere in the game.. Auburn perhaps? Yeryry 23:44, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

This is all strictly POV speculation:
Throughout the game Alma showed time and time again that she was fully capable of killing normal humans from an effectively arbitrary distance in a very inefficient way while restrained by her containment. Once freed, her powers appear to have increased dramatically (as shown by the massive numbers of semicorporeal phantasms which she sends after the protagonist). My memory is inexact, but I recall dialog following the protagonist's fight against Alma that's along the lines of 'Now I know who you are', which heavily implies that she previously was not aware of the protagonist's identity. Further dialog alludes to the protagonist's mind being closed to Alma. (Can anybody else confirm this?)

Aside from radically altering the context of Alma's actions, this would have some interesting implications for the ending, for example:
The protagonist has never shown himself to be capable of resisting damage of his own volition, yet at the end of the game he survives a nuclear blast from inside the lethal range. If Alma had recently realized that he was her child, then it stands to reason that he survived as a result of her shielding him from the blast. Furthermore at the end of the game she didn't kill any of the people on the transport prior to boarding it, which itself implies that she did not intend to cause them harm. As nobody reacted to her presence at all, it seems that she might have been using some sort of mind trick to hide herself from everybody but the protagonist.
Alma's actions are consistant with vengence, as her primary goal appeared to be the death of everybody involved in the Origin project, plus those out to harm her. Givin her abused past it seems likely that her bitter and negative nature is a result of her negative life, and she may have come to terms with herself or had some kind of realization which allowed for her to begin experiencing emotions that were more positive. Coupled with the assumption that she protected the protagonist from the nuclear detonation (Which, as far as I can tell, is the first time she ever used her abilities to help somebody) a change of heart seems likely.
Fdgfds 00:40, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Have you factored in when early on the protagonist is sent hurtling out of the warehouse window, and he miraculously lands about twenty, thirty feet from the blast area without injuries? CABAL 06:22, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I remembered that, but couldn't really think of how it could work in. The most reasonable explanation seemed to be that Alma just wanted to scare him and his team away, however she killed several nameless F.E.A.R. agents early on. If you have any ideas, I'd be happy to hear them.Fdgfds 18:36, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll go with Occam's Razor. Monolith just wanted to scare the player, shoved that sequence in and hoped no one would notice it didn't really fit into the overall structure. CABAL 13:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

If you want to get into development-side plot reasoning instead of in-game motives, then the obvious reason is that they didn't want you to have somebody by your side who could be useful. Almost no AIs in games can, say, use ladders or duck through tunnels.Fdgfds 16:10, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

By the way, those aren't FEAR agents. They're Delta Force. That's not the only loophole that's present. Its rather obvious that Jankowski dies somewhere at the water purification plant, but then at the Armacham building, his signal suddenly reappears! Either Alma has the ability to create and control zombies (and somehow send them over a large body of water from the plant to the HQ), or we're expected to believe that a ghost is perfectly replicated right down to radio systems. CABAL 11:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Why bother duplicating the radio system when you can just duplicate the signal? It's not like you DON'T spend most of the game getting "Unknown source" messages in the upper-left hand corner 192.235.29.95 16:05, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe that Alma had her own agenda (namely killing everyone with Origin) and that the protagonist was just another guy along for the ride. True, there is that scene where she blows you out the window and yes, there is also the nuclear explosion, but if she really wanted to kill him, she could have simply liquified him just as she did with the others. I don't believe she had any "change of heart" at the end;I believe that was simply a demonstration of the protagonist's abillity to survive (this is in accordance with the "exploding-out-the-window-and-not-having-any-injuries" incident). Btw, the whole thing with Jankowski....it is likely that his signal at Armacham was just the remnants of his spirit wandering around, or sent by Alma; the protagonist experiences many situations such as this (with Bishop, Fettel, Alice, the killed Armacham personnell, etc.) These minor and major characters also appear in ghostly apparitions.

The ending helicopter scene, where Alma rocks the transport - it doesn't go unnoticed. Jin herself says, "What was that?" when Alma came aboard.

I also don't believe that the protagonist's mind was closed - otherwise, how would he have all those visions surrounding her? I believe that since he was born from her, they share some subtle, telepathic link with each other as well as Fettell. Although she can mess with his mind, she really can't quite probe into it well - There are many hints as to the relationship between the two of them (hospital, baby crying, Harlan Wade speaking, etc.), but it appears that while she was enclosed in the vault she could not completely access people's mamories. Fettell could, by canabalizing his victims, but Alma herself could only scrape the surface of the protagonist's mind.Delta759 22:38, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Automatic game saves

Sorry, I know this doesn't belong here, but does anyone know how to disable auto- and checkpoint saves?

Small Norton Mapes edit (spoiler)

I changed this line: "However, Mapes is never seen dead and is absent when the player exits the vault at a later point in time."

To this

"However, Mapes is never seen dead"

When you exit the vault, you actually exit out of a different spot. The door Mapes is infront of has a big "01" on it, and the one you exit out of has a big "02"

Ttcfcl 03:47, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Minor Edit

"It becomes apparent near that it is not her intention to kill you, merely to lead you in a non direct fashion such as manipulating Fettel to her location."

I replaced the above line with the following:

"It becomes apparent later that it is not her intention to kill you, merely to lead you in a non direct fashion such as manipulating Fettel to her location."

...as the former did not read well, and I didn't want to speculate as to 'when' we realised that she wasn't trying to kill you.

Piepants 17:59, 31 January 2006 (UTC)Piepants

Hamburger?

I don't get how Charles Habbeger refers to a hamburger....Delta[XK] 23:29, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't see that anywhere. Probably vandalism xD Piepants 15:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)Piepants

An old message from Delta, I guess. :) In the end we decided to remove that "hamburger" reference while reworking the article structure a few weeks ago, so you shouldn't find any mention of it now. Berserker79 15:10, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Verify

Can someone verify all of the additions to the trivia section? Delta[XK] 21:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Page needs to be broken up

This particular article is becoming extremely lengthy and I believe that a revisement on its organization is needed. I think the best solution is to break the article into various pieces such as a seperate page for "guns/arsenal", a page for in-depth character explaination and provide a basic non-spoiler description of the characters on the main page. I've been working on the Red vs Blue page and that is what we've been doing with that article to keep it from growing into this massive mess that in the end no one would want to read less alone edit and maintain it. Anyhows, those are my 2 cents. --LifeStar 15:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I will agree on the character and terms requiring their own articles, but the weapons should stay, given that its so short already. What about trivia? Surely it would be ridiculous to have an article entitled "Trivia of FEAR". CABAL 15:42, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I was about to suggest the very same thing... :) This F.E.A.R. article is getting very large and a bit messy IMO. I was too thinking about a "List of weapons in FEAR" article so that we can put the nicely written weapons' descriptions somwhere else. To lenghten it a bit we might add descriptions for the rest of the equipment (kevlar vest, medkit, power-ups). A "List of FEAR characters" should include most of the text in the Charatcters section and maybe incorporate the Organizations stuff as well, but remove the tons of duplicated plot elemnets and leve them for a Plot section in the main article. Honestly I wouldn't leave descriptions in the main article and simply point to the "List of FEAR characters" article once it is created. The main article could be added with a Gameplay section to describe the basics of singleplayer and the multiplayer modes. Also, I'd like to add a brief description of the game engine with a link to the Jupiter-Ex main article.
As for Trivia that stuff needs to be cut down or moved to other sections: if we move to separate articles "Characters/Orgs" and "Weapons", leaving "Trivia" as it is will make up for more than half the lenght of the FEAR page.
I'm working to a new version of F.E.A.R. on my sandbox: you can see its progress (not much up to now) at User:Berserker79/b79sandbox. Berserker79 16:21, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Still working on page splitting: the new version at User:Berserker79/b79sandbox is getting near completion, but I still need to wade through that Trivia section, expand the Features paragraph and write something about the Engine. If some of you guys would like to take a look at the new version and give some suggestion/opinion that would be appreciated. Thanks. Berserker79 13:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I like how the page looks now, but yes the trivia section needs to be hacked up or totally relegated to its own page. It is taking up half the page, and that's crazy! --LifeStar 16:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

G2A2

Someone wrote earlier that the G2A2 is based on the SL8 sporting rifle, but it's not that simple. The SL8 is the civillain variant of the G36 assault rifle (the military version, if you will). This is a game about military operations, thereby a military weapon would serve as the basis for the in-game weapon. I will, however, agree with whoever wrote it that it does share a significant outward appearance with the SL8, but it also looks like the MG36 light machine gun, as well as the SL9SD, a silenced designated marksman version chambered for the 7.62 x 37mm subsonic round. Their common factor? They are all based off of the G36 assault rifle.

Also, .223 Remington and 5.56 x 45mm NATO are the same round: 5.56 x 45mm NATO is the military designation. Please, don't change the current information about the G2A2, as I think I've written it so that we both get our information across, and so that both parties can be satisfied.

I was afraid of something like this. First of all, that is a logical fallacy. The developers are going to give aesthetics significantly more consideration than the source of the weapon. Otherwise they might as well have given you something like the Beretta 92 or M1911A1 in place of the USP40. The assumption that the weapon is definitely based on the G36 just because of the game background is like saying everything that comes out of the Lockheed Martin factory is the same particular type of fighter. Ah, but keep the information if you wish, at this point I don't suppose it really matters what its based on in the context of the game.

And no, no...just a big fat no. The .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm are not the same round. There are subtle differences. A Google check will verify what I've said. Running 5.56 through a 223-Rem weapon will cause incredible stress on the chamber, particularly older bolt-action systems. Running 223-Rem in a 5.56 weapon is safe but will not achieve the same performance as the real thing. It is a common and potentially-dangerous misconception (that 5.56 will work in a 223-Rem) covered by SAAMI a very long time ago. Use CTRL+F and search for "223 Remington", and then look at what they warn against using on the right-hand side.

If you are still unconvinced, here are the technical details to back up my claim. I know a few other very-knowledgeable gun-nuts whom to ask if you have anything further to enquire. Also, we will have to split the article very soon as it has grown too large; if you have any suggestions, please input them in the section we have up there. CABAL 18:17, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, you were right at least about .223 Rem. vs. 5.56mm, and I have changed information accordingly. Sorry for the confusion. I hope that now we can both agree on the information in the article.

New version as of February 26th 2006

So, here it is, the new version of the F.E.A.R. article. As you can see I moved the Characters and Organizations sections to a separate article and also created a stand alone article for the Arsenal section. I've added a Gameplay and an Engine section and shortened as much as possible Trivia. All movie and game related trivia has been moved to a Movie & game references section, while I removed the descriptions for the extra sound files available through the sdk: I left a mention to them in one of the trivia entries, but I felt it was not particularly necessary to leave them all in the article.

Besides, if you don't like this new version we may work on another or revert to the previous... Berserker79 09:53, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Looks okay for now. I'll look over the whole thing in detail some other time and see if anything needs fixing. P.S. Do you happen to know how to get the SDK to take model screenshots of the weapons? I'm thinking of expanding the Arsenal section with images. CABAL 11:37, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Concerning the trivia section, is there any way that we can certify all of that? Some of it just doesn't make sense. Delta 02:09, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I've read through the whole section. The only ones I can't confirm positively are the "buttocks photocopy", Charles Hambeggar, and the protagonist's average height. CABAL 09:37, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I noticed the "quantity/quality/safety" sign, but never the above mentioned "photocopy". Is it in that room with the photocopy machine running maybe? The "Charles Hambeggar - Hamburger" thing just sounds awfully strange: the name is not spelled Hambeggar, but Habegger. Maybe it's how Fettel pronunciates it, but my copy of F.E.A.R. has dubbed voiceover so I can't tell. Berserker79 11:16, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you both. Although I didn't notice the "quantity/quality/safety" sign, it was probably because i had gotten lost a bit and just mushed my way along. I couldn't find the buttocks incident; although I found the room with the copy machine running, I searched extensively and could not find it. Although some members of Delta Force did seem taller than you, I really can't say that without some doubt. I have had doubts about the hamburger reference for quite some time. I will remove it, but if anyone can give a good explanation, they can change it back. Delta 22:57, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I played through again today and found the elusive ass. Have a look. It was on Harlan's desk in the Rammelmeier facility, in the areas external to the Vault. CABAL 13:18, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, since the photocopy does exist in the end, we may reconsider adding the "trivia" back. What if we merge the "quantity/quality/safety" thing with it? The new trivia entry may read something like the following: " The game contains a number of "funny" objects scattered through its levels: in the Vault facility both a "Remember/its Quantity/Quality/Safety/In that order" sign and a photocopy of somebody's buttocks can be found.". Berserker79 13:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Feel free. I'm just hoping the new atmosphere section is sufficiently large enough to make it not look like half the page is dedicated to trivia...which it probably is. CABAL 20:14, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Fact is we should consider whether we need a triva section or not (or maybe have a very small one). Most of the trivia entries come from the "Making of F.E.A.R." video in the "Director's Cut" edition, other simply mention funny things appearing in the game. Since creating "List of F.E.A.R. trivia" is definitely not an option and "trivia" is defined "as tidbits of unimportant information", I'm open to fully removing the section. Otherwise, if we want to keep it, we have to decide which entries are to be kept or deleted. Berserker79 08:32, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I suggest the following for potential removal. 1) Video previews containing footage that didn't make it into the final build. 2) Promotional live-action vid. 3) Average height.

I suggest the following for reduction in size, if possible. 1) E3 video similarity. 2) Music piece at introductory sequence. 3) Product placement. 4) Chromed motorcycle thing.

CABAL 08:58, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Here's my pick: Delete: 1)video previews 2)Chromed motorcycle thing 3)average height. Shorten: 1)E3 video 2)product placement 3)intro music 4)creepy restroom Berserker79 15:32, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I choose to take the following out: 1)Chrome motorcycle 2)height thing 3) video previews 4) Fettel jacket

We could shorten: 1)intro music 2)promo material 3)product placement 4)car chase?

Another thing, should we take trivia related ot the Director's Cut Edition and place it on a different page or in a different section? Delta 00:08, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, since we all three agree to remove 1) Video previews and 2) height thing I think I'm gonna remove them from the Trivia section. Also, since we all agree on cutting down the size of 1)intro music and 2)product placement if anyone feels like doing it that would fine as well. :)

As for the "Director's Cut" stuff we may consider adding a new section to briefly describe the comic, the prequel/behind the scenes/director's comments videos. This should help shorten the Trivia section quite nicely, but I fear a "Director's Cut" section would result quite short itself. Berserker79 11:04, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

If anyone is interested I've reworked "Trivia" and created a "Director's Cut" paragraph we may integrate in the F.E.A.R. article. Check it out at: User:Berserker79/b79sandbox. If anyone can complete some of the entries help would be appreciated. Unless someone disagrees once I complete them I'll incorporate these paragraphs in the article. Berserker79 10:44, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

F.E.A.R. and Lost

This is probably plain speculation and I don't wish to place anything of it in the article, but I felt I had to tell someone... :)
I just noticed something while reading the Lost (TV series) article that made me think the guys at Monolith spent some time watching that show while working on the game:
1) Check Lost characters list, there's a married Korean couple whose names are "Jin-Soo Kwon" and "Sun Kwon". Put together the man's name (Jin) and the woman's full name (Sun Kwon) and you'll get "Jin Sun Kwon", the name of the F.E.A.R. agent.
2) F.E.A.R. has many references to Office Space, the most ubiquitous being the paper with "TPS Report" on it. One of Lost episodes mentions the TPS Report as well.

Maybe someone in F.E.A.R. development staff was looking the show and got some inspirations for the game as well... Berserker79 12:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I can agree with your first one, which I thought while playing the game, but the second one - as far as being referenced on Lost - is ridiculous. It's just a reference to Office Space. I don't even known why that's listed at the Lost article. There are things as TPS reports. The difference with this game is the TPS report and the red stapler make it obvious. K1Bond007 07:38, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Arsenal...

Do we really need to list all those guns when they're just a click away? Delta 20:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Honestly I don't think that's necessary. Someone added them using a formatting I didn't like much, so I just reformatted the thing. If you're asking for a "deletion vote" then mine is delete. Berserker79 08:23, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Delete as well. Delta 01:53, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Blood references

As much as I am a fan of both F.E.A.R. and the Blood series I'm wondering whether we really need a section of "supposed" Blood II: The Chosen references. IMO those "references" look much more like plain similarities: both games were developed by Monolith, but this does not necessary make the presence of fire estinguishers in both games a reference.
I'd like to remove the section and add something about possible Blood II references in the already existing References to popular media section. Comments? Berserker79 07:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Some of these references don't seem all too unique to these two games alone, such as the fire extinguishers. Delta 20:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. The only information worth keeping would perhaps be the music reference, the gun similarities (if they are in fact unique to these games), and possibly the blackhole fixation— but that last one sounds like a bit of a stretch too. – Quoth 06:26, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Honestly I never recalled the SMG in Blood 2 looking like the RPL SMG from F.E.A.R.: The B2 SMG was modelled after a MAC-10, while the one from F.E.A.R. looks like a heavily modified MP-5. The black-hole thing seems a bit too weak as connection, but possibly this is simply my POV. As for the music I don't recall the similarity either, but I'm quite sure the composers of B2 and F.E.A.R. music are not the same person. I'll have to play B2 again to check out anyway (BTW, I always hated that sewer level, but the music was good).

What are we gonna do? Keep until we get more info or someone feels "bold" enough to delete/move? Berserker79 07:32, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to delete the fire extinguisher reference, the gun similarity, and the black hole reference as we all seem to agree that they don't belong. Berserker, the music section you may kepp/change once you are sure of your facts. If anyone disagrees, feel free to revert; just be sure to state your reasons here. Delta 20:23, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The guns' stuff has been already removed, but if you're still in doubt I've put a few screenshots of the two games on this page for you to check out. The medkit entry also seems a bit too stretched. The phone calls thing is at the best a similarity: in F.E.A.R. the player actually doesn't answer phones, but simply listens to recorded messages. Music: I'm going to check out today or asap. So far the only entry I feel it's worth keeping is the one related to humorous signs. Berserker79 07:32, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

As to the new references to teh Blood series today, I don't think you can kick heads around in F.E.A.R. I'm not completely sure, as I haven't played in a little while, but am pretty sure that you can't. Heads do come off, but as far as I know, you can't kick them around. As for the SWAT reference, again, I'm not entirely sure as I haven't played it in a while. Could someone verify these, and if they are true, should they be kept? Delta 20:15, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Not 100% sure, but I too don't recall severed heads in F.E.A.R. could be kicked. The SWAT idea sounds quite ridicolous: obviously the clone soldiers are supposed to look like some kind of SWAT or SpecOp force, because they are a SpecOp force; I don't think they were modelled this way just to make 'em look look like the B2 Fanatics. Had the F.E.A.R. soldiers some stronger similarity with the Fanatics, e.g. the Fanatics "kamikaze attack", I'd have been inclined to say it was a reference, but the fact they look like a SWAT team doesn't qualify as a reference to me. Neither the "similar weapons" thing sounds credible: both in F.E.A.R. and B2 enemies use SMGs or Assault Rifles (MAC-10 and M-16 in B2 vs MP5 and HKSL8/G36 in F.E.A.R.), just like almost any other FPS with RL equivalent weapons. I hope we'll not cite as references "Soldier Of Fortune" or "Return To Castle Wolfenstein" just because their enemies use SMGs or ARs. BTW, I'll do a final check for the music thing today to be 100% sure, but the tunes seem pretty different to me. Berserker79 08:12, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Kickable heads: turns out the severed heads in F.E.A.R. can really be kicked. I don't think this similarity "deserves the rank" of reference, but I leave it up to other users to decide whether to keep it or not.

Music: no similarity IMHO, besides B2 and F.E.A.R. have different music composers. The games only share the audio programmer, but not any of the composers. I'm removing it.

SWAT: I still think this is quite a silly reference and would like to remove it.

I'd still like to merge the whole section into "References to popular media" anyway. Berserker79 16:44, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for all your work Berserker. I agree with the kickable heads and SWAT uniforms; it just can't support itself as a reference. Plenty of games probably have SWAT-like uniforms and I'm sure the kickable head thing is just because the head can come off in the first place. I'd like to remove them both as well. I'll leave the head and SWAT thing in for now, but if no one can actually give me a good reason to keep it there, I'll delete it. Maybe in a few days or so. As for moving the whole shebang into the references section, I think that's quite a good idea and I agree with your sentiments about not including references to other games for minor things. Delta 19:41, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

As a side note,I'm going to delete the medkit reference because other games have the same thing (ex. Halo series). Delta 19:50, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Delta, I 100% agree with you on medkits entry: I just realized medkits in Real Life are found hanging on the walls, this is a more likely reason for the level designers to do this same thing in F.E.A.R. and B2. Also, I've merged the B2 refs into the "References to pop. media" section. Anyway, as you'll see I decided to point out that there are both references and simple similarities. As for the B2 refs I only kept the kickable heads, humorous signs entries and multiplayer symbol (this latter should be verified), while I decided to remove the remaining ones:

Clone troopers/Fanatics: removed on the basis of my previous comments (see above).

Phones: first of all, not all B2 phones can be answered, second in B2 the phone calls are just jokes, in F.E.A.R. they usually help to provide background info, more similarly to the use of PDA logs in Doom 3.

I hope the merged version can satisfy everyone, otherwise we can work more on it or revert. Berserker79 12:20, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Good job merging the two sections, Berserker. I agree with your removal of the clone troopers and the Phones based upon your reasoning. I believe that this section is fairly good and we should move onto more pressing matters such as (cough cough) the story section? Delta 15:11, 8 April 2006 (UTC)