Talk:Félix Houphouët-Boigny

A bit too hagiographic

This article is essentially all praise, which is particularly surprising since it quotes Meredith's book, which I just finished reading, and which is not exactly soft on Houphouët-Boigny.

Worth mentioning is the criticism directed at Houphouët-Boigny for the amount of money spent on the Basilica of Our Lady of Peace of Yamoussoukro which might have been spent on development. --Saforrest 19:38, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

One paragraph mentions his 1990 election win, but then says the country would next "declare insolvency in 1987". Also, it describes the Ivory Coast as the most stable country in Africa, something I find a little incredulous.

This article neglects to mention his suppression of dissent, and it doesn't even make a reference to Kourouma's "Les Soleils des Independances", which was essentially an affront on Houphouet-Boigny's government.

Ufwe-Bwanyi

While not a specialist I'm a bit familiar with English vs. French writing of African names. The t is not "dumb" in French (not sure about the right word). I suggest Ufwet-Bwanyi that seems right to me. Ericd 19:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

the final "t" may or may not be pronounced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.93.241.122 (talk) 01:58, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Done for now

I'll be back later tonight to continue proofreading. I don't want to edit conflict with anyone right now. I notice that two others are editing now as well. Enigma ^message 00:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Continue. We don't care. --I'm an Editorofthewiki^{[citation needed]} 00:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Haha. OK, I'll keep going. I am now absolved of blame if someone edit conflicts! Enigma ^message 00:42, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• I ran out of time for this, unfortunately. Next week I'll be back and I'll do a complete job. Enigma ^message 23:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Sentences that could use a rewrite

I'm making a list. These are sentences I wasn't sure how to fix.

• [1] As the Cold War set in, the alliance with the Communists became increasingly damaging for the RDA, especially from 1947, when the PCF went into opposition.
  • Changed to "As the Cold War set in, the alliance with the Communists became increasingly damaging for the RDA, especially when the PCF began opposing them in 1947." --I'm an Editorofthewiki^{[citation needed]} 10:20, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
• [2] Keeping the image of a Communist, although defending himself from it, he was the only RDA deputy elected in Côte d’Ivoire in 1951. Enigma ^message 01:22, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Changed to "Houphouët-Boigny's strategy of keeping the image of a Communist, despite defending himself from it critics, won him a seat in the National Assembly in 1951, the only one of the RDA elected in Côte d’Ivoire." --I'm an Editorofthewiki^{[citation needed]} 10:30, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
• The phrase "where conditions were particularly unsanitary" seems a bit ugly to me, maybe a reword would be better.--Aldux (talk) 13:41, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Rewritten. Nousernamesleft (talk) 03:26, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

There's a lot more. I'll list them as I see them.

• "Since independence, Houphouët-Boigny has considered the Soviet Union and China malevolent influences throughout the Third World." Enigma ^message 06:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Changed to "Since independence, Houphouët-Boigny considered the Soviet Union and China malevolent influences in developing countries and Côte d'Ivoire did not establish diplomatic relations with Moscow until 1967." --I'm an Editorofthewiki^{[citation needed]} 12:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
    • Sorry for not clarifying. What I meant was that "Since independence..." isn't a good way to start a sentence because it isn't clear what the subject is. Enigma ^message 16:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
      • "Since Côte d'Ivoire's independence...", perhaps? --I'm an Editorofthewiki^{[citation needed]} 20:41, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
        • Hehe, easy solution. Yeah, that would make sense. It needs to specify what it's talking about. Enigma ^message 20:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
• The political relations paragraph isn't the greatest. It comes apart when a sentence begins "Arriving in the political scene in Côte d'Ivoire around 1970..." Enigma ^message 06:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Changed to "... all arrived on the Côte d'Ivoire political scene around 1970." --I'm an Editorofthewiki^{[citation needed]} 12:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
• Félix_Houphouët-Boigny#A_Frenchman_in_Africa - I don't like that paragraph. Fundamental rewrite likely required.
  • What do you think the problem is with that section? Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 19:22, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Des accords sont signés et resserrent la solidarité des Ėtats francophones,...

Someone, (an IP address, 189.104.82.159), asked me a question about translating a section of this article.
I replied on my talk page. Not sure if this helps but I wasn't sure where to post the reply for this. FFMG (talk) 08:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe this translatio is complete. Where in the article is that paragraph? --I'm an Editorofthewiki^{[citation needed]} 11:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The quote I was given is:

Ambitieux, le leader ivoirien conçoit de plus grands desseins pour l'espace francophone d’Afrique ; il prétend le regrouper au sein d’une grande organisation dont le but serait de se soutenir mutuellement[90]. Le projet se concrétise le 7 septembre 1961, lors de la signature de la charte donnant naissance à l’Union africaine et malgache (UAM)[91], regroupant douze pays francophones dont le Sénégal de Senghor[91]. Des accords sont signés et resserrent la solidarité des Ėtats francophones, notamment dans les domaines économique, militaire, et des postes et télécommunications[91]. Mais en mai 1963, la création de l’Organisation de l’unité africaine (OUA) vient perturber ses plans : les tenants du panafricanisme exigent la dissolution de tous les regroupements régionaux dont l’UAM[92] ; le président ivoirien cède à contrecœur, et transforme, en mars 1964, l’UAM en Organisation africaine et malgache de coopération économique et culturelle[93].

Not sure where it came from, (in the French article), I was only translating the section the IP asked me a question about. FFMG (talk) 11:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe it is this:

The ambitious Ivorian leader had even greater schemes for French-speaking Africa: he intended to rally the different nations behind a large organization whose objective was the mutual assistance of its member states.[104] The project became a reality on 7 September 1961 with the signing of a charter giving birth to the l’Union africaine et malgache (UAM; English: African and Malagasy Union), comprising of twelve French-speaking countries including Léopold Sédar Senghor's Senegal.[105] Agreements were signed in various sectors, such as economic, military and telecommunications, which strengthened solidarity among Francophone states.[105] However, the creation of the Organisation of African Unity (OAU) in May 1963 affected his plans: the supporters of Pan-Africanism demanded the dissolution of all regional groupings, such as the UAM; the Ivorian president reluctantly ceded, and transformed the UAM into the Organisation africaine et malgache de coopération économique et culturelle (English: African and Malagasy Organization of economic and cultural cooperation).[106] --I'm an Editorofthewiki^{[citation needed]} 11:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The part I bolded above is what the French sentence containing the word resserent was translated to. From FFGM's talk page, "In other words, accords are signed and bring together the solidarity of francophone sates or something to that effect.". I believe we've got the translation right. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 12:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I also think it is right, strengthened is a good translation to resserent, basically the relations were good before but because of the accords they are even better now, (tighter is a more literal translation but it cannot really be used in this case). FFMG (talk) 14:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

FA-Team copyediting

Please list the sections you are copyediting and note when they are completed. Thanks! Awadewit (talk) 14:01, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm almost done with the article. I've been doing it section by section for the past week. I don't suppose it would make sense to list all the ones I've done thus far. By Wednesday night American Eastern Daylight Time, I should be done with everything. There's still a lot of copyediting to do, however. It's possible I missed a few things, and a number of sentences could be made clearer. Enigma ^message 06:39, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Ugh, still not finished. This article is a much bigger job than I originally thought, and it looks like it may be ongoing. Even after I hopefully finish every section, there will be more cleanup to do. A lot of this article could use a rewrite. Enigma ^message 07:10, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I've done the lead and the first level-two header so far. Enigma and the others (if anyone else has copyedited the article yet) have done a good job - I only found a few things to tweak. Nousernamesleft (talk) 19:49, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I've gone up through the "Death and legacy" section. Unfortunately, I think the entire article needs to be restructured, which will necessitate more rounds of copyediting. The sections after "Death" really need to be included earlier in the article. Awadewit (talk) 16:26, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll start restructuring the article soon. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 16:34, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I've had a pass at the Early life, French political career and Rise to power sections. All things considered, this is a very fine article, although it does assume much from the general reader, needs to give more context in places, erratic paragraph length, has neutrality issues with colonialism. On a minor point, full dates are used quite often in the article, which may be an unnecessary level of detail. As Awadewit notes, the African political career section really needs to be integrated into the article before the Death section. I hope to be able to look at the rest of the article soon. Great work so far! Skomorokh 13:44, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Note: This article is written in BE. Please stick with that! Thanks! Awadewit (talk) 13:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Source check

Has anyone gone through all of the sources used for this article and checked to make sure that they are reliable according to the standards on en.wikipedia? Awadewit (talk) 16:48, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I made an inline note to myself as to where I left off in my source checking/reference formatting. I'll get back to that now. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 17:14, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so as you are formatting the notes, you are checking the references? Excellent. Awadewit (talk) 17:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Image check

It looks like someone is doing a thorough image check - is that correct? Awadewit (talk) 17:10, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Unfortunately, we've lost half of our images now. I'll go digging for more free ones. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 17:18, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, good to know that sooner rather than later! Awadewit (talk) 17:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Why did we lose the initial one? --I'm an Editorofthewiki^{[citation needed]} 18:11, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

See Commons:Deletion requests/Image:Felix Houphouet Boigny.jpg. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 18:57, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

FAC checklist

Here is a rough outline of an FAC checklist. Please improve it!

1. GAC
2. Copyedit
3. Peer review
4. Copyedit
5. Image check
6. Fact check
7. MOS check
8. Proofread
9. Check all citations (formatting, lost citations, etc.)
10. Check all links

Nominate for FAC! Awadewit (talk) 17:15, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Any update on this? Skomorokh 21:26, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Copy edit notes

I've been asked to do some copy editing of this article, and will leave notes here, as a running commentary.

• I've gone back to the website reference sources to try and better understand the familial relationships. At one point FHB's father is said to have died when he was a small child, and at another point in 1939. As I have to carry out another task for a brief time I have saved without having made all the updates. Risker (talk) 22:48, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
  • As I read it, the father died shortly after the birth of Felix's brother Augustin, and it was Augustin, having acquired an "e", who died in 1939. Brianboulton (talk) 10:08, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Question: "The struggle for a successor ended when Prime Minister Alassane Ouattara, who since 1990 had generally administrated the country during the president's frequent hospitalizations in France, was rejected by Houphouët-Boigny in favour of Henri Konan Bédié, the President of the National Assembly." This seems to be written badly; Ouattara was not mentioned before then, so talking of rejecting him may confuse the reader, but I can't think of a better way to phrase this. His rejection of Ouattara should most certainly be included, but this format doesn't flow well. Does anyone have an idea? Nousernamesleft (talk) 16:27, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Changed to: "The president's health was becoming increasingly fragile,[135] with Prime Minister Alassane Ouattara generally administrating the country since 1990, while the president was hospitalized in France.[6] Due to this, ambitions were stirred in regard to his successor. This struggle ended when Ouattara was rejected by Houphouët-Boigny in favour of Henri Konan Bédié, the President of the National Assembly." --I'm an Editorofthewiki^{[citation needed]} 20:26, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Final copyedit (?)

I'm hoping that not much more copyediting is needed on this article, but as I go, I will list questions that I have. Awadewit (talk) 14:08, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

• In 1932, he decided to act, leading a movement of farmers against the influential white landowners and for the economic policies of the colonial government, who favoured the farmers. - This is confusing and needs to be rewritten.

• Houphouët-Boigny undertook international diplomacy in the early years of his presidency. He advocated dialogue between Arabs and Israelis in July 1962. Speaking to his Israeli hosts on a visit to Jerusalem, he expressed what was to become one of his most famous quotes: "We do not think there is any problem in the world, no matter how difficult or intractable, that cannot be settled through negotiation." - This lacks specificity and does not seem necessary. Awadewit (talk) 16:12, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

• The organisation included among its members 16 countries, whose aim was to break revolutionary ambitions in Africa. - "break" is a bit too vague

• Also in collaboration with Foccart, Houphouët-Boigny took part in the attempted coup of 16 January 1977 led by famed French mercenary Bob Denard against the revolutionary regime of Mathieu Kérékou in Dahomey. - This implies that the 1966 Ghana military coup was somehow supported by Foccart as well - is that true? There is no mention of Foccart in that paragraph, so the transition is confusing.

• The decline was perceived as a fleeting situation, since its impact on planters was buffered by the Caistab, the agricultural marketing board,[3] which ensured them a livable income. - What does "livable income" mean exactly?

• Strong social agitations shook the country, creating insecurity - "strong" doesn't seem like the right adjective here

• There are hidden comments in the "Opposition" section, in the Wodie paragraph that need to be addressed.

• In 1977, a case of massive overcharging by three sugar refineries shook the government. No trial took place, but the government took steps to preclude a repeat occurrence. On 23 June 1977, an anti-corruption law was adopted, and by 20 July, nine ministers had been dismissed for violating the law. In the parliamentary elections of 1980, Houphouët-Boigny allowed voters to choose among a multitude of candidates for the first time, to eliminate a number of corrupt figures in the regime. Despite these efforts, however, corruption was not completely eliminated. It became even more visible during the 1980s economic crisis. In 1983, the ruling class was embroiled in a financial scandal involving the LOGEMAD, a state agency in charge of paying owners for the rent of homes occupied by public officials. Politicians abused the administrative leasing program to profit from it. - I have removed these two paragraphs because they are not directly connected to FHB - are these events that should be told in relation to him or are these really more important in the history of the country?

References

Image check

All of the images check out fine, except for this one:

• Image:Ourladyofpeaceafricaexterior.jpg - This doesn't have an author, so we can't use it (it is not clear who owns the copyright and who can release it). Awadewit (talk) 14:25, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

• Actually I just looked into this and there cannot be a picture of this building in this article - the building is copyrighted and there is no freedom of panorama in Cote d'Ivoire for buildings. Calliopejen1 (talk) 15:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

• I learn something new every day. Awadewit (talk) 16:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Fact check the sources

Considering the discussion that occurred at this FAC regarding translated articles, we should fact check this article to make sure that each source supports the claims made by the article. I will start this process this weekend and report here. Awadewit (talk) 14:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I no longer have JSTOR access, but if someone who does is reading this, would they please email this to me? Nousernamesleft (talk) 19:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Sending now. Awadewit (talk) 19:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Me too. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 19:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmph. I thought perhaps the review would summarise the sources included to an extent that I could check the facts, but I suppose the information was too detailed. My apologies for wasting your time, Awadewit. I'll simply have to find another way to access those print sources. Nousernamesleft (talk) 00:15, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I could mail you the books. :) Awadewit (talk) 17:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Online English sources - all online English sources have been checked

• Four Ivory Coast's Founder, Lavish Funeral - checked

• An African's Gift to the Vatican - checked

• FHB, Ivory Coast's Leader Since Freedom in 1960, is Dead - checked

• Mother of Nation Dies - source lacks birth and death dates - are these elsewhere?

• Ivory Coast: Brazzaville Conference - checked; this citation is not correctly cited in the note, however - this is a chapter in a book and the chapter has a separate author from the book
  • Not sure how to format this. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 20:10, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

• Encyclopedia of Word Biography - checked (it would of course be best if we didn't use any encyclopedias at all)
  • Why not? ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 19:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Because you don't use one encyclopedia to write another one - they are at the same level of generality. We should be citing sources that are better than encyclopedias - we should use sources that are more detailed. See WP:RS: "Wikipedia articles should be based around reliable secondary sources. This means that while primary or tertiary sources can be used to support specific statements, the bulk of the article should rely on secondary sources. Tertiary sources such as compendiums, encyclopedias, textbooks, and other summarizing sources may be used to give overviews or summaries, but should not be used in place of secondary sources for detailed discussion." Awadewit (talk) 19:57, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
      • Actually, that one was a pretty long article, and while we could perhaps be more detalied, this article is 90 kbs in length! I couln't honestly give a crap about that part: encyclopedias (other than Wikipedia, of course) must be some of the most reliable things on earth. IAR, my friends (don't you just hate it when McCain says that!), and this really isn't a major source for the article. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 20:10, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
        • The length of the article is irrelevant. See WP:PSTS. I for one would find the use of sources such as this a reason for opposing at FAC. What you can do with this source, however, is check out the bibliography that it itself uses. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 22:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
          • Hmm, it didn't seem to mention a bibilography on the page. I still can't get my mind around why these sources shouldn't be used, and if you are still doubting its reliability, it's published by Thomson Gale, which also publishes educational materials. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 22:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
            • Yes, they publish many textbooks and other tertiary sources. It's not surprising they should publish this. They're not known as a scholarly press. (Though they do publish a number of scholarly journals.) If the article has no bibliography, that's simply another strike against it. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 22:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

(outdent:) Incidentally, I might make an exception for the Encyclopedia Universalis (though these refererences are all over the place: why are we apparently using both the 1975 and the 1999 editions?), as the articles are signed, and at least one of the authors (Samir Amin) is indeed an important scholar in the field. I'd probably have to take a look at the book to get a better sense, though. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 22:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

• Reform and the French Community - checked; this citation is not correctly cited in the note, however - it is a book chapter

• Relations and the Council of Entente - checked; this citation is not correctly in the note - it is a book chapter

• Independence and the Institutionalization of the One-Party System - checked; not cited correctly in the note - it is a book chapter

• Consolidation of power - checked; not cited correctly in the note - book chapter

• Reigning Beauties - checked; surely we can find a better source than gossipy article for FHB's second marriage?
  • It may be gossipy, but isn't Time considered a reliable source. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 19:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Not everything in Time is equally reliable and this is a good example of a poor source choice. Why would we want to cite an article that focuses on fashion and gossip when we are not talking about those topics in the article? Such choices reflect poorly on Wikipedia. Even more importantly, we should not rely on such sources for important information. We should find the best sources so that we know we are reporting accurate information. An article is only as good as its sources. If we are using superficial, gossipy articles, the resulting Wikipedia article will be superficial, too. We don't want that! Awadewit (talk) 20:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
      • Not everything in the New York Times is equally reliable either, despite being practically worshipped where I come from. There will always be that element of doubt, but I think this is one of the best sources, if awkwardly worded. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~
        • The article is not awkwardly worded - it is a fluff piece that contains a significant amount of advertising. It has no significant content whatsoever and we should not be relying on it. We need to distinguish between what is worthwhile in Time and what is not. This is clearly not. Awadewit (talk) 17:29, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

• Death of Thomas Sankara - checked; unsure it supports the statement "The coup may have had French involvement, since the Sankara regime had fallen into disfavour in France." - what part of the article supports this statement?

• Civil rights - checked; not cited correctly in note - book chapter

• Relations with the Soviet Union and China - checked; the section sourced to this needs to be rewritten as its language is far too close to the original material - it could be considered plagiarism; not cited correctly in note - book chapter
  • It's a public domain source, so we can use it. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 19:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
    • There's a difference between plagiarism and copyright violation. A public domain source may not be copyrighted, but it can still be plagiarized. Which is what Awadewit is suggesting is the problem here. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 22:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

• Foreign relations - checked; not cited correctly in note - book chapter

• Economic and political issues - checked; not cited correctly in note - book chapter

• Winning Coalitions - checked; needs to say "subscription required" in the note

• Biggest, longest, tallest - checked

• Cote d'Ivoire at Encarta - checked; I didn't see anything supporting this statement "The unveiling of such splendour, during the collapse of the national economy, did not revitalise support from those within Côte d'Ivoire as Houphouët-Boigny had hoped; instead, it fueled discontent among the population." - I have therefore removed the statement from the article.

• Tributes - checked

• Resolution - checked; probably not the best source for this information

• Presentation - checked

• Prizewinners - checked

Online French sources

• National Assembly - Félix HOUPHOUËT-BOIGNY - I'll address this piece by piece as I go through each of the 28 times it's cited.
  • <a: I assume that this source is the "official biography" referred to. In that case, it should be noted that it says "probably" (probablement), and that he was born to chefs baoulés, roughly translating to "chiefs of the baoulé people". I believe referring to him as a member of the "Baoulé family" is incorrect; the baoulé are a people, not a family. Nousernamesleft (talk) 20:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Done. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 22:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
  • b: Checks out, though I note that it says he ceased his career as a medical assistant in 1940, something not mentioned in the article. Nousernamesleft (talk) 20:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Done. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 01:00, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • c: The source says nothing about the popularity of his union as a factor.
    • Can't find this, though I probably just messed up the letters with my last edit. Care to remove? ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 01:00, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
      • Done. Nousernamesleft (talk) 01:25, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • d: Checks out. Nousernamesleft (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
  • e, f, and g: Check out. I have to stop now; I'll check others later. Nousernamesleft (talk) 21:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
  • h: Should be noted that it's not just Ivorian; it's in all "les territoires d'outre-mer de l'Union française". Nousernamesleft (talk) 00:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    • AKA French overseas territories. While I really don't know French, you start to pick up on things as far as Google Translate goes. Anyway, done. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:25, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
      • Yes, I know what it says, I just quoted the original for effect. Nousernamesleft (talk) 00:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
        • I know, I know. I added that just in case anyone was wondering. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:48, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • i: Says nothing about housing or opposition particularly from native Frenchmen. Nousernamesleft (talk) 00:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)\
    • Removed. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:48, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • j: As per i, says nothing about it being "In an attempt to reassure the French," and it does not have the à l’heure actuelle quote. The other sentence sourced by j checks out. Nousernamesleft (talk) 00:33, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Removed (1st) and reworded (2nd). ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:48, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • k: It says A la seconde Assemblée nationale Constituante (at the second national assembly discussing the constitution). Presumably, this was simultaneous to the creation of the Fourth French Republic, but I think the "republic" line should be discarded in favor of this one, as this has direct relevance to Cote d'Ivoire. Nousernamesleft (talk) 00:36, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • l: Critical error: Firstly, the source says nothing about him regulating suffrage within an oversea-territory commission. Rather, it says he was appointed a member of la Commission du règlement et du suffrage universel, or the commission for regulating universal suffrage. Someone clearly translated this part incorrectly. Secondly, the article redundantly notes he was appointed to the overseas-territory commission, when that was noted just the paragraph above. Nousernamesleft (talk) 00:42, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • m: Checks out. Nousernamesleft (talk) 00:45, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • n: Only one occasion is mentioned - I've thus removed the "numerous". Also, the purpose stated is only vaguely implied. However, I believe it's concrete enough to include, so I've done nothing about that. Nousernamesleft (talk) 01:39, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • o: Checks out. It actually says "the assembly" rather than the French colonial administration, but that's essentially the same thing. Nousernamesleft (talk) 01:43, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • p: Checks out. Nousernamesleft (talk) 01:50, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • q: Critical error: Nothing about being moderately leftist, nothing about having a similar list of candidates. The "official alliance" is technically correct, though it's a rather naive description of the political maneuvers that Houphouët-Boigny pulled off. Nousernamesleft (talk) 01:58, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    • It seems that the lettering was somehow mixed up, and now the above is moot since Ed is too confused to correct them. Rest assured, however, that I'll check each of the occurrences myself and post a note here when done. Nousernamesleft (talk) 01:17, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
      • I'm beginning to have grave concerns on the comprehensiveness of this article. It goes into a great amount of detail concerning some events, yet glosses over others. The 1951 elections, crucial to his detachment from Communism, is glossed over in approximately two sentences. Perhaps this is just a one-case problem; we'll have to see. Nousernamesleft (talk) 01:33, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Citation needed for the exact dates of ministry under Bourgès-Maunoury and Pflimlin. A citation is also needed for Boigny serving under de Gaulle at all; not just the dates. Nousernamesleft (talk) 02:12, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
  • All instances of the National Assembly Official Biography reference check out. The {{fact}}-tagged statements noted above need to be cited, though. Nousernamesleft (talk) 02:17, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
• Spécial Houphouet - I'll check this one soon in the same format as the official biography. Nousernamesleft (talk) 03:42, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
  • a: Checks out.
  • b: Checks out.
  • c: Checks out.
  • d: Checks out. Nousernamesleft (talk) 22:31, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
  • e: Checks out. Nousernamesleft (talk) 04:00, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
  • All the rest check out'. Nousernamesleft (talk) 03:02, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Printed English sources

• Martin Guy's Africa in World Politics - This is checked out from my library - anyone else have access to it? I hate to recall it. Awadewit (talk) 16:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Checked: a b. Nousernamesleft (talk) 19:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

• Africa South of the Sahara 2004 - I would have to request this from interlibrary loan - anyone actually have access to this source easily? Awadewit (talk) 16:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Here is the Google Book preview. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 20:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Checking the page cited, it doesn't appear to actually back up the claim. Nousernamesleft (talk) 00:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
      • It's on pp. 135-136, although awkwardly worded. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:18, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

• Segal's African Profiles - This is another encyclopedia with only a few pages on FHB. This article relies far too extensively on tertiary sources. Considering this one was published in 1963, which means that much of FHB's career had yet to unfold and presumably much information about him was still unknown, I feel that it should be replaced. Here is the information sourced to this entry:

• In 1921, he attended the École de médecine de l'AOF (French West Africa School of Medicine) in Senegal, where he came first in his class in 1925 and qualified as a medical assistant. - This is also sourced to this website, however, which Nousernamesleft has established is solid, so we could just remove this note.
• In October 1945, Houphouët moved onto the national political scene; the French government decided to represent its colonies in the assemblée constituante (English: Constituent Assembly) and gave Côte d'Ivoire and Upper Volta - We need another source for this information.
• According to official figures, by 1951 a total of 52 Africans had been killed, several hundred wounded and around 3,000 arrested (numbers which, according to Ronald Segal, author of African Profiles (1963) and founder of the Penguin African Library, are certainly underestimated). - Using a tertiary source for this kind of information is particularly sketchy - we need another source for this information.
• Houphouët-Boigny began drafting a new constitution for Côte d'Ivoire after the country's independence from France on 7 August 1960. - This is also sourced to Nandjui, p. 130 (hopefully that checks out).
• On 27 November 1960, Houphouët-Boigny was elected unopposed to the Presidency of the Republic, while the list of candidates of the PDCI—the only participating party—was approved for the National Assembly. - We need another source for this information.

Hi Awadewit. I disagree quite strongly with your evaluation of Segal's book: it's certainly not an encyclopedia, but instead a piece of journalism. If you have given it a careful look you'll see it's general tone is often linked to a personal evaluation of individuals and events, as the selection of modern African leaders (some are simply excluded as of limited interest). Also, it has a very limited range (African leaders of the 1960s). The authour is also clearly reputable.--Aldux (talk) 17:41, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Even worse! :) Journalism and not an academic source! Seriously though, the structure of the book is an alphabetical listing of entries on people and topics, just like an encyclopedia. Furthermore, the entry on FHB is only a few columns long. We really need to get away from these short, summary sources. We cannot use so many of them as the basis for this article - we need to use sources that have more detail than this article, not less. I agree with you that the source is technically reputable, but that is not really the point. This article is being sourced to far too many mediocre sources. We need to find the best sources. This multi-column biography, which doesn't even go past the early 1960s, is hardly one of the best sources that we can find. If we want this article to pass FAC, we are going to have to do better than this. Featured articles are the "best Wikipedia has to offer" - that means the best writing and the best research. Awadewit (talk) 19:04, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh God..... Now I'm really confused! Are you sure we are speaking of the same book? Because I assure you, I've got Segal 1963 in my hand now and it is not "an alphabetical listing of entries on people and topics, just like an encyclopedia": it's 24 chapters, of which the 15th, titled "Felix Houphouet-Boigny" is completely dedicated to Houphouet, and it's not a few columns long (actually there aren't columns), as it's 12 pages long, from page 280 to page 292. As for journalism let me politely disagree :-): journalists with a strong reputation in contemporary politics in their specific field are regularly used, or else you would discover that many of the most important works on Africa: especially biographies - would be unusable. But I do agree we could use better sources: in particular the best source in English is still Zolberg's old One-party government in the Ivory Coast, according to the regional specialist Robert Mundt in 1997; and I doubt anything better has been written since then. As for French, there's a very comprehensive work written is Frederic Grah Mel's Felix-Houphouet-Boigny, from 2003, but it covers only up to 1960. I would avoid Verschave: it's a book with quite a big axe to grind, so it may be a bit to partisan.--Aldux (talk) 19:48, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

And of course now I am at home. I was definitely looking at Segal's book, but I think it may have been an earlier edition. I looked at my library card catalog again and noticed that we have several editions. It was nothing like you are describing, which sounds far better. I don't suppose you could scan the chapter and send it to me? Journalists have a very uneven reputation when it comes to biography, IMO - some are as good as you say and some are downright dismal - particularly in politics. I'm thinking of contemporary US political biographies, for example. :) Anywhoo, you are vouching for Segal and you seem to know the sources, so I will trust you. Do you have time to beef up the sourcing in this article? We would be ever so grateful. Awadewit (talk) 20:03, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

• Le Vine's Politics in Francophone Africa - checked

Printed French sources

Questions

• Houphouët-Boigny Part 1 is a radio programme, but the recording does't seem to be online. Has this been checked? Lots is cited to it. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 00:50, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Oh, and perhaps worth checking the sources cited here, only one of which (Nandjul) is in our article:
    • Philippe Gaillard/Jacques Foccart, Foccart parle : entretien avec Philippe Gaillard.éditeur : Fayard/Jeune Afrique - parution : 1995
    • François-Xavier Verschave, Françafrique : le plus long scandale de la République éditeur : Stock parution : 1998
    • Pierre Kipré, Houphouët-Boigny, le père de la Côte d'Ivoire N°295 parution : février 2005 par : Pierre Kipré
  • -jbmurray (talk • contribs) 01:57, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

• Overcitation - I'm beginning to remove some ridiculous amounts of overcitation - for example, repeating inline citations on a by-sentence basis - that makes the article difficult to read. Any help would be appreciated; I'll probably miss some instances. Nousernamesleft (talk) 02:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

• Please please please don't do this! I never know why this makes articles so hard to read, and removing them makes it less clear to readers that each sentence has a citation that corresponds to it. Calliopejen1 (talk) 04:09, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

• I'm afraid that - no matter how many more "please"s you add to your request - I'm going to have to disagree. The mass of blue is an eyesore which greatly hampers reading. About the readers; firstly, I doubt that even 1% of readers who look up an article (for a purpose other than vandalism) pay any attention to inline citations. Secondly, it doesn't make it any more obvious, and indeed, will make Wikipedia look foolish - you will never, ever find a published piece of academic work with that ridiculous amount of citation. Nousernamesleft (talk) 19:13, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Nousernamesleft: we probably don't need a citation every sentence if it is cited to the same work. As for the citation needed, I removed the unverified material--it isn't really important who FHB served under rather that he served at all. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 20:43, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

About Sources

I've just removed a paragraph, as it involved mainly bad or at least poor sources (except Mundt), and anyway Wodie has always been marginal in Ivorian politics. Also Quid, which is used twice, must be really removed, as it has quite a low standard.--Aldux (talk) 16:37, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I've noted a missing gap in Houphouet's early history: it's not clearly stated he was elected in 1946 to the First Constituant Assembly; in the same year, due to the failure of the first after the referendum on the proposed constitution, he was elected in the Second Constituent Assembly always in 1946; due to the success of the latter (the constitutional referendum passed), he then presented himself and won the 1947 elections for the first National Assembly of the Fourth Republic.--Aldux (talk) 17:31, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Will work on that. Yeah, the Wodie thing probably wasn't a huge part of his career. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 19:34, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi there. I'don't want to be too fastidious, especially since I haven't done much for this article, but I'm afraid Concordat Watch may not pass RS criteria. I do have a source that may replace it, Brockman's An African Biographical Dictionary; while an encyclopedia, it's a specialized one in scope and provides references. To quote it states at page 147 that the basilica was built in European style and imported materials, it cost "about about US$200 million, which H.-B. insisted came from his own resources [....] The pope requested that it be a few feet shorter than St. Peter, but he reluctantly consecrated it in 1989." I think it could be better than Concordat Watch, but mine is just an opinion.--Aldux (talk) 20:18, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Please don't worry about being fastidious - we're trying to prepare this article to be a featured article. I don't think that site would pass RS either. Your source sounds far better - let's use it. Awadewit (talk) 20:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm back. It seems that work has stalled; I'll get back to removing overcitation, and then checking the rest of the French sources. Nousernamesleft (talk) 20:39, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

• All of the English sources have been checked. Awadewit (talk) 21:52, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

• Good. I'll keep a tally of which sources I've checked for overcitation here for my own reference: Up to #13 right now. Nousernamesleft (talk) 00:14, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

• I'll be looking for overcitation and hopefully (if I'm not blocked again :)) will remove it. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:48, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

• I'm now up to 110. Nousernamesleft (talk) 03:40, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

• Done with OC cleanup; I'll get back to checking online French sources. Nousernamesleft (talk) 03:35, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Why the D-word is avoided?

Félix Boigny, as we can read in this article and elsewhere, has all the characteristics of a typical dictator who suppressed democracy and ruled his country as a one-party state until his death.--201.83.35.29 (talk) 11:30, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

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Hagiography

This is about as hagiographic an article as I've ever seen on Wikipedia...would love if someone with knowledge and interest would inject some balance and questions into the narrative. How did he acquire his billions that are described and hinted at being controversial? Where is that money now? What were the ramifications of his single-party rule for decades without setting up succession? Should he be assigned blame for some of the subsequent instability? Etc, etc. None of this is present. The answer to all of it could be that he really was an inspiration and world-changer, but there is no attempt at addressing them now. 24.218.13.137 (talk) 13:01, 3 October 2020 (UTC)