Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2025/Archive 1

Archive 1

Slovakia

Given how in the source for Slovakia's return, Ľuboš Machaj only states that "if everything goes without problems" the country would return, can we already consider this confirmation of participation? Even the article title seems to have been changed since being included here from "Slovakia returns to Eurovision 2025" to "Slovakia wants to return to Eurovision in 2025". Mr. Thistle (talk) 18:23, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

I think it is a bit early to be considered a confirmation, it sounds more like a statement of hope for the moment; and this would mean also including Luxembourg. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 12:02, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Speculation

Each year we have the same discussion and the result is always the same (because of how Wikipedia works). Unless an entity has confirmed they are doing something, mention cannot be included in the participants area. We cannot speculate on behalf of any broadcaster or attempt to draw conclusions about what they could do. Grk1011 (talk) 18:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I completely concur. Too many of the sources included are very vague, and in some cases do not mention 2025 specifically at all. Unless there is something concrete within the sources that states what a country intends to do, and specifically for 2025, then the information should not be presented. Doing otherwise would be a violation of WP:CRYSTAL. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 23:14, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Portugal

RTP President of the Board of Directors has confirmed in this article by Eurovoix that Portugal has no intention to withdraw from Eurovision, stating that: "it makes no sense for RTP to consider leaving Eurovision." I brought the topic here as I was unsure if we could consider this a confirmation of participation or not and as such I was looking for the community's opinion on this. The source for this information is https://eurovoix.com/2024/05/13/portugal-rtp-ebu-may-14/ Violatie (talk) 08:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Russia

@IvanScrooge98: Should we add Russia into the 2023 and 2024 articles? Or do we leave Russia yellow with no comment, like Yugoslavia in the 90s — IмSтevan ^talk 17:17, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

I think it would make more sense to leave it out, since its suspension is not related to those contests; otherwise, out of consistency, we would have to repeat it year after year until (and if) Russian broadcasters are ever reintegrated into the EBU. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 17:51, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

I like it as it is now. It's very briefly written why they have no chance to partcipate. They have a long history in the contest, and I think there is a lot of readers interested in knowing the situation about Russia, so I don't see why such a short line, as it is now can't be there Thomediter (talk) 11:55, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Norway

As of the most recent version of the article, a Hebrew article on a songwriting camp for MGP is listed as confirmation for Norway participating. This seems strange to me, as an article on that exact songwriting camp has previously been listed as source for Norwegian participation, but has later been removed as it didn't seem to confirm anything about Norway's actual ESC participation, only about MGP.

While MGP has so far always served as the Norwegian national selection, there is a theoretical possibility of it taking place without serving as such in 2025, as previous editions of other national selections have shown (Portugal's Festival da Canção in 1970 and 2000 as well as Hungary's A Dal from 2020 onwards come to mind), so can we really take an announcement of this songwriting camp (not even MGP itself) as confirmation for Norway's participation? Mr. Thistle (talk) 14:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

A similar source was used to make the same assertion but this was removed a few weeks ago for the exact reasoning you described. I've gone ahead and removed it again. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 15:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I still think Norway should be considered a confirmed participants, when Melodi Grand Prix has been confirmed. That show was made and has always been used to select the Norweigan Eurovision Participant, so in what world does an announcement of that show not mean Norway will take part in Eurovision. We risk, having a very short list, and appear outdated, if we want literal words for every single confirmation of participants. Thomediter (talk) 15:58, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Sure, if they properly confirm MGP and don't explicitly state that it will no longer be connected to ESC (kind of how Iceland formally disconnected their national selection from Eurovision this year), we can assume they participate. As long as it's only a songwriting camp as is the case right now though, it's a bit too little to really confirm their participation. Mr. Thistle (talk) 16:11, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. MGP is not synonymous for Eurovision. If we make this synonymous, does that mean that Norway does not participate if the MGP is not organised? Of course not. But that's what happens if you grant those events an automatic connection. And I don't think we risk having a very short list; Eurovision media are very keen on looking for and publishing country confirmations, including literal words. And one could argue that this is still all speculation until the EBU publishes the official list of participants in September/October, so the fact that we're covering it ahead of the official list of participants, means that we need to source it well, clear and explicit. And it cannot be outdated as long as the official list of participants is not published. Hhl95 (talk) 00:15, 14 May 2024 (UTC) knowing norway: they will not participate without mgp. in 1991 mgp was hosted by a different channel and nrk did not want to send its winner. mgp have not been held when norway have not participated.84.208.108.74 (talk) 18:11, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Israel

Israel is listed as a non-returning country, is there any source confirming this?

I saw the edit history says "Israel cannot return", but I don't see any definite reason why Israel would be banned next year and can't find anything about this on the internet Rockoro (talk) 12:12, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, this was reverted as of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eurovision_Song_Contest_2025&diff=prev&oldid=1223959688&title=Eurovision_Song_Contest_2025&diffonly=1

Nevermind Rockoro (talk) 12:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Looks like accidentally doing something someone already asked about is something I do now. :) Jamo62 (talk) 09:08, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

TBA May 2025 seems wrong

So I've noticed that it currently says that Semi-final 1 is TBA May 2025, Semi-final 2 is TBA May 2025 and Grand Final is TBA May 2025. I have two issues with this, that I think are worth discussing.

1) There is no offcial rule, as far as I'm concerned, requiring that the contest takes place in May. It's true that it has taken place in May in the entire ongoing century, so it's expected to be the same for 2025, but we don't know for certain. One of the biggest reasons I have a problem with May, is that Eurovisionworld, which we use in between, suggest 29 April 2025 as a possible date for Semi-Final 1.

2) Writing TBA May 2025 can easily be misunderstood as meaning that the dates for the shows will be announced in May 2025. It's similar to if Greece shared that they were going to announce the artist in December of 2025, then we'd write TBA December 2025 in the Greece column.

For the first one, I think either removing May or adding (expected) to the text is the way to go.

For the second one, I'm kinda hollow at the moment about how to tackle it properly. But I wanted to hear if somebody had a good idea, to a change of concept that could improve this aspect of the page. Thomediter (talk) 12:06, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

On second thought, "TBA" should maybe just be removed alltogether concering the dates in the infobox. So we'd write May 2025 (Expeceted) or 2025 when informing about the show dates? Thomediter (talk) 12:16, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Agree with your view. I think "TBA" would suffice. The Contest has not always taken place in May and Israel and the Netherlands have holidays in May that are usually taken into account (both countries did not participate in the years that the Contest was held on those holidays in the '70s and '80s). So May is not simply a given. Hhl95 (talk) 13:41, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

If we look at Eurovision's How It Works page, there is a statement that Participants then compete at the Eurovision Song Contest, traditionally held in May. While it's not specifically concrete for 2025, I believe to ignore this would be wrong as well, given that the last time the contest was not held in May was in 1994. I think "May 2025" is a perfectly valid approach to the dates of the shows within the infobox at this stage. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I would disagree with this, see also my comment above about distinguishing between rules and traditions. I don't think we should take May for granted, based on a tradition. If it was a rule, that would change things. Of course, I think it's not plausible that the Contest will take place in January or September, but a bit earlier, at the end of April, can be very much possible if that suits schedules better. Hhl95 (talk) 08:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm also not 100% confident that writing May 2025 is a good choice. It's not a fixed month that the contest is held in. Thomediter (talk) 15:37, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I get what you're saying with this, however we do have an official source now that says that traditionally the contest is held in May. Of course the exact dates are unknown at this point, but given it's been over three decades now since the last time it wasn't held in May, and given that only two contests in the last forty years were held outside of May, I think we're within the realms of plausibility to state that the contest will almost certainly be held in May again. We may be wrong, but given that the majority of the information within other sections of this article is also provisional, I don't see why we should be bending over backwards to try and disprove something when there's a 99.99% chance that it's right just because there's the tiniest possibility it's not going to be in May. Just like there's a slim possibility that X country might decide not to participate later on, that doesn't mean we shouldn't not include information right now that says they will participate, and I think the same process should be used for the dates as well. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 08:53, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that adding something like "(expected)" at the end, could help this. Just like we do with this. Thomediter (talk) 10:21, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see what's wrong with just "TBA" though, since we don't know the exact dates anyways. Hhl95 (talk) 09:26, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Switzerland

There is no source given for Switzerland's participation. I get it we take for granted that the host country participates, but hosting and participating are two separate processes. Even if it's unlikely - it would be a first if a host country doesn't participate - we cannot include it as long as there is no source for it. So I have removed it for now. And I wonder if the Swiss broadcaster even accepted the offer to host the Contest? Seems we're just assuming here as well. Hhl95 (talk) 08:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

The fact that cities such as Geneva & Basel have already announced their intention to bid to host, as well as this article confirming that meetings at SRG SSR have began over hosting duties essentially confirms Switzerland's participation. (the article in question is https://eurovoix.com/2024/05/13/eurovision-2025-meetings-commence/) Violatie (talk) 09:12, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I saw your edit. The article only covers hosting though, not participation. Hhl95 (talk) 09:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

If a country is hosting Eurovision, they are participatingat Eurovision, that is a rule in place and it feels like we are moving the goalposts here to not call this a confirmation of participation. Violatie (talk) 09:39, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

No, that is not a rule. It just has never happened before that a host country did not also participate. So the goalpost is right there. Hhl95 (talk) 10:18, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

It is utterly nonsensical to exclude Switzerland because they've confirmed they're hosting not participating. No country has ever hosted ESC and not participated, Switzerland hasn't ever voluntarily withdrawn from the competition, and spending hundreds of thousands of Euros on hosting just to not participate is stupid, it wouldn't make sense and there's a reason it's never happened before, that's why nearly every year the winning country confirming they're hosting has been a confirmation of participation on Wikipedia. Violatie (talk) 10:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

That's just a sum of assumptions. Wikipedia is only for sourced information, we cannot just assume that something happens because it never did not happen before. Such assumption is what is non-sensical. Switzerland has to be excluded from the list until there is a source that covers a confirmation of Swiss participation. Nothing is granted in the future, and especially not in Eurovision, as we noticed this year as well. Hhl95 (talk) 13:45, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Well no, that's not true. Wikipedia has its own page of "rules of Eurovision" where it specifically states that "The contest is organised by the EBU, together with the participating broadcaster of the host country, and is overseen by the Reference Group on behalf of all participating broadcasters," the source is a page on Eurovision's own website about the organisation of the contest. This is proof enough that Switzerland will participate as they will host. Violatie (talk) 05:18, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

No, it is not. The way it is phrased on that Wikipedia page, is not how it is phrased on Eurovision's own website. Eurovision simply talks about "a host broadcaster and around 40 participating broadcasters". So hosting and participating are two different tracks and there is no rule that the host broadcaster also participates.

And even if this doesn't convince you, on Wikipedia we do need to have our information sourced. So that is enough reason to cancel out Switzerland as long as there is no source covering Switzerland's participation. And it is all only preliminary until the EBU publishes the official list of participants, so there is absolutely no harm in leaving Switzerland out as long as there is no source covering it. Hhl95 (talk) 09:47, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

There is very much harm in leaving Switzerland off the list, every other Wikipedia had the host country listed as participating before their selection methods were announced, so why should we change that just because you personally disagree with that sentiment? A general consensus would need to be met but the general consensus is Switzerland will participate because they're hosting as spending hundreds of thousands of Euros on an event you won't participate in is stupid plus the EBU would never let the host country not participate, there's a reason that when Israel couldn't participate in 1980, they didn't host either. Violatie (talk) 09:52, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Very much harm, what exactly? We have one rule here and that is that information on Wikipedia needs to be sourced accurately. The money isn't really an argument. As I explained, hosting and participating are two different tracks. The money that is spent on hosting is separate from the money that is spent on participating. The reason for Israel was that they had a holiday. That means that they couldn't participate, and they could not host also because of that holiday. Not because they didn't participate. And regarding the EBU, we have seen this year that the EBU can disqualify a country without any serious explanation, so I wouldn't place my bets on the EBU to never block a host entry from participating. What if Switzerland sends a political entry and is unwilling to change it? Switzerland will still host, but would not be allowed to participate. These are just hypothetical examples of course, but not impossible. And it shows that it is only just speculation if we assume that a host country participates for the fact that they are hosting. We just cannot assume that and we need an accurate source nevertheless. Hhl95 (talk) 10:02, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, this makes near 0 sense. The EBU would only disqualify a host entry if they break the rules they create, in which case why even bother with having any countries on this list? By your own criteria no country has confirmed participation at all because no delegation has explicitly said "we are participating," what they have done instead is begin preparations for their selections for Eurovision 2025. If it were up to your criteria then Portugal, Malta, Spain, Denmark, and Finland all shouldn't be on the participants list, and again, it is an unspoken rule that the host country participates, there's a reason that no one has brought up your argument before, and that's because it makes 0 sense. Hosting Eurovision is expensive, and host countries don't have to pay the participation fee, so why host an event you won't even participate in? And do you actually believe the EBU would allow a country who's not participating to host? Violatie (talk) 10:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

The countries listed, all have a source with them that explicitly confirms their participation. Simply preparations are not enough, that's why many of the countries in the "Other countries" list have also been removed (not by me btw). And yes, if a country is already far in preparations for hosting and then happens to send an entry that has to be banned, the EBU is not going to change the location to another country on short notice. Hhl95 (talk) 11:59, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

That’s cool and all, but any country can be disqualified at any time, so why even have a participants list here at all? The reason is because the page will be outdated within a few weeks. Wikipedia’s purpose is to give out the facts on a certain subject. With Eurovision, fact is that at a current time, we have a number of countries making preparations to compete or host, and to host Eurovision you must participate, and again, if you’re so certain that Switzerland should be removed, why wasn’t Sweden removed in May 2023 following their Eurovision win? At that stage they hadn’t confirmed participation, just that they would host Eurovision. The idea to exclude the host country from the participants list because they haven’t “explicitly stated we will participate” is frankly, stupid, because at that point we’d have to remove many countries from the list and it would become outdated. Violatie (talk) 20:18, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

This list cannot be outdated as it is preliminary. The participants are only sure when the EBU publishes the list of participants, which is usually in October. That is why every participant that we add now, needs to be sourced clearly and explicitly. We have gotten used to adding those countries as soon as there is confirmation, but one could argue that it is not encyclopaedic as long as it is preliminary. So that is already a weak basis. There is absolutely no urgency to have a complete list now. So countries that are unsourced, have no place in the list. Unsourced information doesn't have a place on Wikipedia anyways. Hhl95 (talk) 22:07, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Switzerland is not gonna host the show whilist not participating, so if we write they are the host, of course we should write that they will participate. Thomediter (talk) 22:27, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

We can write that if we can provide a source with it that states so. Which is not the case with the source you added. Hhl95 (talk) 00:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

As Eurovision host countries always participated in the past, I think it’s safe to say that we can use the same source that says Switzerland will host ESC to confirm its participation. Sure, as you mentioned before, maybe Switzerland will get disqualified for sending a political entry (which is quite unlikely coming from Switzerland), but we can take Switzerland off the list when/if that happens. After all, Finland, Malta or Portugal could all send political entries and be disqualified, but they are still included in the provisional list. For now, Switzerland’s participation is confirmed. Ludo.omt (talk) 03:18, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

For Finland, Malta and Portugal there is a source confirming their participation. Not for Switzerland. Hhl95 (talk) 08:05, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

So you want the article to be outdated because no one "explicitly states participation"? That makes no sense, and given how you're the only one who seems to have an issue with Switzerland being on the list I kindly ask you to stop removing them from the article as it's causing an edit war and the general consensus is to leave them where they are. Violatie (talk) 05:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Did you even read what I wrote? It cannot be outdated as it is only preliminary. And any information on Wikipedia needs to be sourced accurately, that is the basic rule of Wikipedia. So you'll have to find a source where it says that a host country automatically participates, or a source that explicitly confirms Swiss participation. There is no other way we can include Switzerland in the list. Hhl95 (talk) 08:07, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I would have to agree here. Since it's a preliminary list, and we know at this stage that Switzerland intends to host, another reference which explicitly states that Switzerland intends to participate is still required. WP:CRYSTAL applies here, and to take "hosting = participation" at a rule would be a WP:SYNTH violation. There's a hypothetical situation, however remote, where the Swiss broadcaster may decide they don't want to host and then decide not to participate at all, which has happened before (see Eurovision Song Contest 1980). Even if it looks a bit odd not to say that Switzerland is participating in a country they're hosting, since Wikipedia is built upon referencing and sourcing, if we don't have the sources then it can't be included. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 08:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

So we expect SRG SSR to reach out to fan sites to say "Yes we're participating" even though they're focusing on hosting right now? No other country has done this and at no other time in a Eurovision Wikipedia article have we done this, it feels very unnecessary, as if we need to take everything too literally for a participation confirmation, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Israel ever confirmed they would host Eurovision 1980 at any point? Swiss broadcaster SRG SSR have already confirmed in numerous articles about hosting the contest that they are definitely hosting and evaluating all potential bids, so the comparison to Eurovision 1980 feels inaccurate here. Violatie (talk) 08:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Since I used the How It Works page in the May 2025 section below, I suppose it's just as valid here. On this page it says Participating Broadcasters work hard to prepare acts that will qualify from the show’s Semi-Finals, hoping for a ticket to the Saturday night Grand Final where they will join the so-called 'Big Five' broadcasters and Host Broadcaster (usually the broadcaster of the nation than won the previous year). I don't know if this is sufficient proof to include Switzerland in the table, but I would tend to support it if we're also using it for the May dates. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd say this source works if it's used for other information in the article that people could argue "isn't certain." I believe the only reason they added "(usually the broadcaster of the nation that won the previous year)" to the website is because of situations that occur where the winning country can't host (notably in Eurovision Song Contest 1980 and Eurovision Song Contest 2023, however we have confirmation that Switzerland will host, and while hypothetically that could change, literally anything could change from now until May 2025 as we saw with the Dutch participation in Eurovision 2024, and as such I don't think excluding Switzerland for this reason makes a lot of sense. Violatie (talk) 09:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Personally content with the current solution. The added sources do now provide enough support to assume that Switzerland will participate. And if there is going to be a source where Switzerland's participation for 2025 is explicitly confirmed, we can replace the current sources.

It's not that at any point I expected Switzerland to not participate, but we have to back it up with accurate sources, especially in this stage where simply any information about the 2025 Contest is preliminary. Eurovision has a lot of rules, but Eurovision also has a lot of traditions that are not rules. It's important to keep distinguishing between them if we take anything for granted.

And the point of preliminary information is that we have to back up what we know at this point in time. If things change, we back that up with sources that cover that change. There is wide concensus to already start and edit Contest pages before they have taken place, but it's all future information and that is strictly not encyclopaedic. So we have to keep that in mind. Because actual encyclopaedic information is information that cannot change anymore, which means that it lies in the past. So sources are absolutely necessary as we cannot foresee the future. Hhl95 (talk) 08:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

This is the most stupid thing I've ever read. Fighting over nothing, just wasting your time. Finlandestonia (talk) 14:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. Hhl95 (talk) 22:05, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Relevance of RTL opinion poll to Dutch participation

Tagging in @IceWelder and @Coriovallum on this. I see the section on the Netherlands (entirely consisting of the RTL opinion poll) was removed by IceWelder earlier as "The RTL poll is open to everyone, so it shouldn't have any weight here" and then restored by Coriovallum citing vandalism. I'm leaning towards the information not being included if anyone from anywhere can vote on the poll, but the source links to a 404 post at the moment so no way of knowing if that's true. Figure it's better to discuss here than to edit war over. Toffeenix (talk) 08:40, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Since the poll is not limited to Dutch residents (case and point: I voted in it to test this), the real-time result is likely to be tainted, and the notion that X% of Dutch people voted in a particular manner is likely to be incorrect. Furthermore, this is not a professionally conducted poll, but just an online vote thrown onto that website. If the provider comes out with a fixed result filtered to only include Dutch IPs, the story may be different, but for now it is just the old poll, closed, so I believe it should remain excluded. IceWelder [✉] 11:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I would also be leaning towards not including this, for the very point that IceWelder listed that it's open to everyone and it's not representative of a sizeable enough portion of the population. It leans towards there being undue weight being attached to this one internet poll in my opinion. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 14:57, 1 June 2024 (UTC)