Talk:Eugene Podkletnov/Archive 1

Some interview statements

I've found some statements which are attributed to Podkletnov from an interview. Maybe someone knows or could identify the actual interview and these statements could be added to this article.

"We can actually work without superconductors using normal conductors and some other composite materials and they give practically the same effect or even better effect than super conductors. Our last research shows that, working with composite materials that do not include superconducting materials at all, we are able to create gravity fields in space, in the air, in different objects, and all the objects in the vicinity of our Artificial Gravity Generator, we can control their weight.

"These things are entirely new so we haven't published any materials yet because this is part of our know-how. And we also prefer not even to make any patents at present because we would like to go directly from the stage of research to the stage of engineering and application.

"The main application of course will be the transportation system. It will be a new transportation system on the planet Earth and in Space because our technology allows to move very heavy objects with big speed, or on the contrary, very low speed. We do not pollute the environment. We don't have any radioactive material. The system doesn't produce noise, doesn't produce exhaust gasses, takes a very small amount of energy to activate it. It's practically the dream of every engineer. At the same time, parallel to transportation, we can speak about new energy production plants which are based on Artificial Gravity Generators because half of a turbine can be made heavier or lighter and it will begin to rotate just by itself. It's a new approach which will later eliminate all oil or gas burning power plants. Also we want to definitely eliminate radioactive material. Our
systems are reliable, very safe, and much more efficient than the systems that people use at present. And definitely speaking about the future of these Artificial Gravity Generators, we can speak about traveling to different planets because now it will be much easier than with primitive rockets. And we can speak about mining in space because with our systems we can bring pretty big asteroids to the Earth very slowly, not burning in atmosphere. And if needed, we can move very heavy objects to the Earth's orbit, so if we want to make a series of space-stations, that is not a problem. But
definitely a lot of research and engineering work should be done and we think that we are approaching this stage.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.249.80 (talk) 00:25, 16 November 2016 (UTC) 

Burkhard Heim

Even if it is most likely recognized that this experiment does not work. It is still interessting that Burkhard Heim invented a theory that could explain the theory.

(unsigned comment by User:Helohe 16:35, 19 July 2005)

To the contrary, it seems that the handful of professional physicists who tried to read Heim's paper declared it incomprehensible. It seems that Heim wrote down an Ansatz for producing mass spectra, but apparently no-one can guess what theoretical motivation (if any) he may have had in mind. The current version of Heim theory is much too uncritical of a "theory" which is regarded by mainstream physicists as very obscure and of very questionable value-- and as apparently not being a theory of fundamental physics at all, as most would understand this term! I see that uncritical references to Heim theory have been cropping up all over the map in the WP; these should be systematically toned down (and in some cases, removed outright on the grounds of being completely irrelevant to the real subject of a given article). ---CH 01:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

If you do dig up on heim theory however, you will find that his theory does predict that a rotating magnetic field would create a gravitational field. I do beleive it is worth a mention especially since a paper based on his theory was awarded a prize last year.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.86.0.74 (talk • contribs) in North Vancouver (this IP is registered to Shaw Cablesystems of Calgary, Alberta, Canada) 10:56, 11 April 2006

I believe the incident which this anon mentions may be the award by the AIAA of a prize to a paper by Hauser, a proponent of Heim theory. This incident has been discussed in various places, e.g. this article from New Scientist. I'll just point out (again!) that theoretical physics is apparently not the profession of the AIAA panel which awarded the prize. Quoting from the NS article: despite the bafflement of most physicists at the theory that supposedly underpins it, Pavlos Mikellides, an aerospace engineer at the Arizona State University in Tempe who reviewed the winning paper, stands by the committee's choice. So, according to NS, physicists are baffled by this award (I agree), and Mikellides at least is not a physicist. ---CH 17:05, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Gravitomagnetic explanation?

Under general relativity, a forcibly-accelerated mass generates an gravitational field that points in its direction of acceleration - basically, it resists (inertia) and fights back by trying to drag nearby stuff along with it (frame-dragging).

Podkletnov's disc was a superconducting wafer with a hole punched in the middle, spun by an applied EM field from a current passed through coils (above one surface?). Now, perhaps you might expect this to set up eddy currents in the disc, and if those currents circulate inward along one surface and outward along the other, what you have at the inner and outer edges is an horribly-abrupt acceleration in the ballistic electrons that ought to be projecting a gravitational effect that points along the rotaion axis, in one direction and in the other direction around the rim. You might expect these to cancel out at a distance for a non-rotating disc (ignoring non-linearities), but since these discs were spinning, the existence of a radial Coriolis field throws some assumptions off that would suggest cancellation.

So there's possibly a genuine effect expected under standard theory here, there's just a grey area over whether its supposed to be unmeasurably small or something more notable.

The good news is, IF this is the missing explanation for the effect, the gravitomagnetic hypthesis would be easily testable: you'd just reverse the electical polarity of the "spinner" coils to produce opposite eddy currents and change the upper surface from "blowing" to "sucking". Oh, and maybe flip the wafer over, too, in case there are any persistent eddy currents trapped in the wafer after power-down.

I'm not claiming that this is what's really happenning, buy hey, its logical and testable idea. (one might also want to look for an anomalous power drain from the rotator coils when the field is supposedly doing something physical)

(unsigned comment by User:ErkDemon 17:51, 8 September 2005)

Whoever wrote this appears to have very little understanding of general relativity. A forcibly-accelerated mass generates... is a ludicrously inaccurate description of what mainstream physicists usually mean by the term frame-dragging. This term is often confused with gravitomagnetism, but these are not really the same thing. The author of the quoted phrase probably was trying to give a munged description of the mass quadrupole approximation in the generation of gravitational radiation in weak-field gtr, which is something yet again.---CH 01:58, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Just to reiterate, the above "explanation" from user 'ErkDmon' is hand-waving nonsense. It is not a legitimate account of how this phenomenon could be understood "under general relativity". And of course, such speculative discussion has no place in a Wikipedia article or its talk page (as noted in the guidelines for talk pages, this is not a "forum" for general discussion). This should have been archived ages ago. 174.254.186.138 (talk) 17:24, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Shouldn't this be placed under pseudoscience?

I think that'd be premature. Some "anomalous" results turn out to be due to accidents, some turn out to be malice by third parties, others are unfortunate coincidences and "complex" behaviour (e.g. the secretary upstairs can't work when your equipment is running because of the noise, and always choses to switch on the expresso machine at that moment, creating a power surge that always throws off your readings whenever you warm up your accelerator coil), some are fraud, some are self-delusion, and some ... some actually turn out to be genuine. Sometimes experiments just go legitimately wrong, there are piles of reasonably well known physics experiments that really shouldn't have been taken seriously with hindsight, even though they gave the "right" answers.

If people were running about claiming that the Podkletnov result is definitely correct, then that might be pseudoscience (but I haven't personally seen anyone doing that). If they claim its definitely wrong, that might be pseudoscience too (personal bias masquerading as scientific fact). The scientific approach, IMO, is to try to find out, objectvely, if the thing is right or not. Which the appropriate people seem to be trying to do, in measured way, only expending approriate resources, and not saying much in advance. This all seems to me to be appropriate.

As I said, the good news is that because of the topology of the experiment, if it is a "pseudoeffect" then some of the obvious sources of error should be comparatively easy to debunk. For instance, if one visited his lab, and asked him to run the experiment with the coil polarity reversed and the disk flipped over, and his colleague in another part of the building still reported a deflection of the same polarity, then that would rule out the first gravitomagnetic explanation (above), and make the test more "problematic" (but still not necessarily wrong) ... OTOH, if the distant colleague reports a reversed effect, and guesses the polarity correct each time in repeated blind tests, then one's confidence that this might be a real effect would tend to be higher. One can't always guarantee to work out what's really going on in an experiment, but there are things one can try (as a polite neutral observer, with an invite) to narrow down the options.ErkDemon 03:57, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

The ESA exeriment just shed new light on the topic... Gortu 19:19, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Gortu is apparently referring to the Tajmar/Matos eprint; see my comments in next section. ---CH 17:32, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I thought pseudo-science was a dressing-up of non-scientific beliefs with science-y sounding explanations - like intelligent design/creationism or astrology. What Eugene Podkletnov seems to be peddling is junk science. Beerathon 13:25, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Or under proto-science? Or maybe neither classification should be done by volunteers? ... said: Rursus (bork²) 10:44, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

There is no "pseudo sciences" in physics until physicist can represent his ideas, calculations, hypothesis and can experiment with the model. The claims about the "pseudo science" comes from "social" "scientists"- the real pseudo scientists (sociologists, psychologists, ufologists; as part of the Philosophy) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.182.102.81 (talk) 19:55, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Revision

I have revised the article to be less uncritical, as per Dispute flag. ---CH 05:20, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Found fabulous quotes in Wired article by Platt, completely rewrote. It turns out to be much funnier to let P speak for himself, heh. Enjoy! ---CH 07:07, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Someday I may get a chance to revise the (currently horrid) articles on gravitational radiation to explain a conventional approach in weak-field gtr to generating thunderbolts and other "dangerous" gravitational waves. This background makes this biography much funnier! ---CH 07:20, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I was involved with BAE Systems' Project Greenglow (see http://www.greenglow.co.uk) and as such was able to meet EP in 2000 when he visited the UK to lecture in Sheffield and at BAE in Warton, Lancashire and fill in some details. The page proof (just the front page) was apparently obtained through the UK secret services - I don't know any more than that. ---US 19:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Apparently Uncle Slacky never followed through or provided verification of his former affiliation or support for his odd "secret service" claim. ---CH 17:09, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I have now - unfortunately I moved house and all my documents went into storage shortly after CH's comments were made. I have now rectified the situation. ---US 18:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Tajmar and Matos eprint

Is this article HUGE news relevant to Podkletnov and Heim? http://www.physorg.com/news12054.html I'll let more knowledgeable folks decide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.254.143.241 (talk • contribs) in Tulsa, OK (this IP is apparently registered to McLeod USA, Inc. in Cedar Rapids, IA) 19:59, 23 March 2006

Interesting. Thanks! Peter S. 09:01, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Caution is advised :-/ FWIW in their preprint the authors are at pains to distinguish their claim from Podkletnov's claims.---CH 22:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Someone added:

Recent experiments performed by the ESA might finally vindicate Podkletnov and all the rest who have claimed that superconductors in motion can affect gravity.

Reference: Towards a new test of general relativity?"

I put the paper in the reference section. Anyone who understands the difference between 0.3% or even 3% vs a 100millionth and the actually physically relevant findings in the papers vs. the alleged findings of Mr. eugene will agree.Slicky 09:33, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

The effect measured was 0,0001 g, i.e. 1/10000 g, not 1/100.000.000 g Petri Krohn 14:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

A number of anons and other users have now added a reference, external link, or internal link regarding the Tajmar/Matos claim. These additions have been incompetent: put in the wrong place, interrupting the flow of ideas, failing to use proper citation template, and most of all, failing to understand how the Tajmar-Matos claim relates to the Podkletnov claim.

Gravity-shielding fans please note: some things you should become aware of before you add any more misinformation:

• Gravitomagnetism is mainstream gtr and not to be confused with Podkletnov's claims,
• Tajmar and Matos claim to have measured gravitomagnetic effects in an apparatus similar to P's, but they are careful to stress that their claim is not related to cranky gravity-shielding or anti-gravity claims, in fact they imply that they believe their result is incompatible with P's claims,
• The result of Tajmar and Matos has not yet been replicated, has not yet been published (except as an unrefereed eprint; when reading the arXiv, don't confuse endorsement with refereeing), and should be regarded as controversial/preliminary at this stage.

I have added a citation to the eprint properly formatted in the references section.

Bottom line: Podkletnov fan(s?): while I can see you are very enthusiastic about this development, please keep some perspective, and try not to spread misinformation in the Wikipedia. Your cooperation is appreciated.---CH 17:32, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Tajmar ref. messed up. says 2006, but links to paper from 2002. no time to fix it now. GangofOne 20:46, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I removed it; if someone thinks it is relevant, please explain.---CH 10:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Woodward link

Was added by 68.183.26.111 (talk · contribs), aka the dslextreme.com anon from the San Jose, CA area. Is this link really relevant to this article? WP seems to have been subjected recently to quite a few anon edits by persons apparently promoting their own work, so I have to ask: 68.183.26.111, you are not Woodward, are you? ---CH 10:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I moved the link to Reactionless drive, more relevant there. -- Petri Krohn 12:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Students beware

I extensively rewrote the Feb 2006 version of this article and had been monitoring it for bad edits, but I am leaving the WP and am now abandoning this article to its fate.

Just wanted to provide notice that I am only responsible (in part) for the last version I edited; see User:Hillman/Archive. I emphatically do not vouch for anything you might see in more recent versions. This article concerns a controversial topic and given past history, I have reason to believe that at least some future versions are highly likely to present slanted information, misinformation, or disinformation. Be wary also of external links to other websites, which in the past have often included highly cranky websites.

Good luck in your search for information, regardless!---CH 23:26, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Not confirmed but not refuted?

After reading this Wikipedia article, I felt puzzled. While Podkletnov's claims look dubious, nothing in the article has convinced me that his statements have been refuted or that his claimed results have been proven false. So is this science, junk science or pseudoscience? If no laboratory wishes to prove Podkletnov (or his methodology, or his results) wrong, then we can't say it's a hoax, cheating, or even junk science. Remember the cold fusion controversy: initially it looked right, then it was quickly rejected, then the experiments were re-enacted with marginal success, and now we are still facing some unknowns (such as the apparent production of Helium atoms in a palladium-deuterium cell). I think we should be careful not judging too fast about this "open question", even though the whole think smells fishy. Hugo Dufort 00:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Fishy fishy fishy! This guy reeks of fish even without any "experiments." And it didn't mention if Physics D rejected him or not. I would guess they did :) X [Mαc Δαvιs] (How's my driving?) ❖ 21:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Podkletnov is a real scientist. He has done real research in real universities with real teams of professional researchers and also produced real scientific papers. See for example this list: [1] See the list item #20: "E.E.Podkletnov, R.J.O.Järvinen, P.M.J. Vuoristo, T.A.Mäntylä, and P.O.Kettunen: "YBa2Cu3O7 Thin Film Superconductors on Copper Substrates by RF Magnetron Sputtering", J.Mater.Sci. Lett., 11 (1992) 202-204." The paper is also available here: [2] I don't see anything fishy in Podkletnov's person or efforts. Yes, they may appear controversial because some of them seem to challenge scientific truths. Uikku (talk) 11:20, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Q: "So is this science, junk science or pseudoscience?" A: You forgot protoscience. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 10:47, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

It was merely a "claim" of an observed effect by a minor researcher. It wasn't quite science because there was nothing sufficient for peer review publication. It wasn't quite pseudo-science since it involved no "grand theory" (though Podkletnov had a prior interest in exotic theories of gravitational effects around superconductors and that may have influenced his observations). If this small claim of an experimental observation had not been picked up by the Sunday Telegraph in 1996, it would almost certainly never have seen the light of day. A reduction in the observed weight of objects is not impossible. There are ways to do it entirely within the context of Newtonian physics (dig a cavern under your laboratory, fill it with water... weigh objects above it. Drain the water... weight objects again. They weigh less). The problem with Podkletnov's result was that it was simply a claim, probably false, that was blown all out of proportion by media amplification and early Internet speculation. It went from "possible observation of reduced weight" to "discovery of anti-gravity!" overnight. And THAT is the real story here. There would be no Wikipedia article about Podkletnov if the story had not been picked up by a major London newspaper. 174.254.186.138 (talk) 17:39, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Citations?

Let's try to convert citations to the standard reference tag format? I've added a LOT of Fact tags, probably only half as many as I should have, given all the unsourced statements in the article. Mgmirkin 05:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:References http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Footnotes

Some of the statements and quotations aren't attributed to reliable sources, or the sources aren't listed in the usual manner. Not saying the article needs to be abandoned, just made to conform with the standards of other articles on WP. Mgmirkin 05:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Report or Essay?

This "article" at times reads more like an essay than a report... Neutrality needs to be instated, and probably some of the "colorful" adjectives need to be taken out or the sentences/paragraphs rephrased. Seems to promote certain positions through colorful verbiage? Hard to say. If one "can't tell" whether something is a neutral representation, it perhaps "needs work?" Mgmirkin 05:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

A few examples: "when the furor over his experiments resulted in his being asked to leave," "In a bizarre twist" "where he quietly took an engineering job" "Elated by Podkletnov's apparent confirmation of this prediction" "and commenced work on a most unusual device". These colorful snippets sound a bit essay-ish, rather than factual. Opinion of work is irrelevant. Deriding or promotional language doesn't really belong in a report, no? Just thinking these should be cleaned up a bit in line with WP standards... Mgmirkin 05:26, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Very good observations. The article would profit very much from improving its language. ... said: Rursus (bork²)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 09:50, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal

Evgeny Podkletnov is a duplicate of this article. I suggest merging it here because it is shorter and has a shorter history. --Entlinkt (talk) 01:59, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Observation: someone merged it. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 10:42, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Podkletnov's peer reviewed publications

I would like to point out that Eugene Podkletnov published several articles in peer-reviewed papers before the two papers that you mention as being the only ones. Just go to Google Scholar and look for publications of "E. Podkletnov" or "E.E. Podkletnov". Most are related to special materials, ceramics etc. Gmodanese (talk) 14:31, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for reviewing the article and for your suggestions. I have added a section on Podkletnov's other work to the article and I have removed the sentence on "his only". Aldebaran66 (talk) 18:15, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

"Other work"

The problem you probably overlooked is the association of the dates of publication with affiliation to institutions. It is not unusual that peer-reviewed journals may hold publications for several years. Therefore your claim "1984 and 1985, while at the Mendeleev" is dubious at best and may be actually wrong. That's why we need secondary sources to say such things, rather than deduce ourselves. Staszek Lem (talk) 00:58, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Another, issue: what's so notable in these publications other than their mere existence (I looked into the previous section of the talk page)? If these are nothing special, then there is no reason to litter wikipedia with lists of random publications: there are proper outlets, like the above mentioned google scholar, and many others. wikipedia is not for an indiscriminate collection of information: we write about things worth reading about. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:01, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

gravity like impulses with speed of 64c

I am suprised that Eugene Podklentov's (this) page does not mention his new article: "Podkletnov, E., & Modanese, G. (2012). Study of the Light Interaction with Gravity Impulses and Measurements of the Speed of Gravity Impulses. In G. Modanese & G. A. Robertson (Eds.), Gravity-Superconductors Interaction: Theory and experiment." In this article he claims, that he discovered gravity-like impuleses propagating at the speed of 64c. This information was than discussed in the article "Giovanni Modanese: A Comparison Between the YBCO Discharge Experiments by E. Podkletnov and C. Poher, and Their Theoretical Interpretations", where it was discussed that causality is not violated, as it does not take into account the initial time for generating the pulse.

1. Is there a reason, why this work should not be mention in the Eugene Podkletnov's (this) page?
2. Is somebody with better background in physic able to summarize it?

If answer to both of these questions is NO, i will try to summarize it and include it.--Radekdostal (talk) 11:07, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a scientific compendium. We do not describe each and every article written by each and every researcher. Wikipedia is based on well established facts, usually found in reliable secondary sources. This means that the subject gained significant interest and was discussed by somebody else, not only by its authors. Staszek Lem (talk) 00:34, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

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Possible graphene discovery?

Hi. I did wonder and in fact have tested this hypothesis that graphene in cigarette smoke *may* account for the original static and rotating observations with LN2 buoyancy for the rest. At the time (1992) the effect of magnetic beams emanating from a rotating superconductor was not appreciated, and if as I expect graphene was present this could explain a lot of the anomalies. It is possible that the particular disk materials or a chance impurity generated a stronger effect and we don't know exactly why it worked so well.

Also relevant: though not seen as such graphene *was* used in early EL devices in the form of carbon black and it is said that Geim's original research may have been triggered by anecdotes of Sellotape X-rays that many viewed at the time as propaganda but later turned out to be true.

I did have some success replicating early experiments and emailed Evgene about it but lacked the means to test it further. Also relevant: I once built a device which generated an apparent force beam effect capable of moving small objects at a distance. In this case it was not possible to determine the exact configuration that led to the effect as it was a very experimental setup similar to an SGTC with an unusual secondary configuration not normally used. It was however able to knock over a 1960s era AM radio inside a cupboard from a distance of approximately 8 feet. Pictures of a critical and innovative part of the device do exist online. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.3.100.57 (talk) 02:51, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, we are not discussing original research here. Wikipedia article talk pages are for discussions of improvement of article content based on references to published reliable sources. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:25, 28 January 2019 (UTC)