Talk:Erin O'Toole/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

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Why is his height listed?

Not usually something relevant for politicians, is there a reason for this? SchizoidNightmares (talk) 04:38, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

@SchizoidNightmares: Agree. I'd be inclined to remove that info as well. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 00:33, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

@AleatoryPonderings: I've taken it upon myself to remove it from the infobox. I don't think it's even sourced. Unless someone can find a source and reason to include it, I see no reason to keep it. SchizoidNightmares (talk) 02:31, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Does Erin O'Toole speak French?

The question will be asked. This topic (his ability to speak French) should be included in the article.

When was this question asked? Is there an answer yet?Santamoly (talk) 03:46, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

third permanent

"O'Toole became the third leader of the Conservative Party of Canada after three rounds were counted, replacing Andrew Scheer"

It should be the third permanent leader. 49.3.72.79 (talk) 04:39, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Partisan Changes

Hi! I added to Political Positions that Erin O'Toole supports privatizing the CBC, something clearly stated on his own website (https://erinotoole.ca/defundcbc/), but this was taken down. I know this is a contentious issue in Canada, so it is quite relevant. However, someone erased this. Please watch it, shenanigans to come no doubt. Will repost and see how long it lasts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidrayedit (talk • contribs) 21:47, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Davidrayedit, if you read the website and the 3rd-party sources describing his platform, he doesn't say that he'll fully privatize the CBC. I had read a National Post article, which sources a policy document of his and says the same as his campaign website. I have re-read it and will re-phrase accordingly, though it appears that CBC Radio will stay public under an O'Toole government, based on his comments that CBC radio retains its public interest mandate. Username⁶⁸⁹² 22:26, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

The 2017 leadership election results table

… should probably be collapsed so it fits within the standard page width, but I am not up on table formatting. Anyone know how to do that? AleatoryPonderings (talk) 19:06, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

"Captain the Honourable" in infobox

Reads really awkwardly, but I'm not up on my honorifics. Is that how his title is supposed to be cited? AleatoryPonderings (talk) 00:32, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

@AleatoryPonderings: When looking at articles on former Prime Ministers who held military positions[1], the precedent seems to be "The Honourable"[2] or "The Right Honourable"[3] with it linking to the relevant page.ARandomRedditorWikipediist (talk) 21:36, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

@ARandomRedditorWikipediist: Thanks for pointing me to that list! Yes, seems like the only one with a military rank in the infobox is John Abbott; all the rest have "Honourable" or "Right Honourable" only. I'll leave this for discussion for a couple days, but will remove "Captain" as inconsistent with past usage if no one objects. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 21:45, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

@AleatoryPonderings:It would seem to me at least, that clarity should be offered in the formatting of the field. I have never heard of "Captain the Honourable" before. I suspect "Captain, The Honourable" or "The Honourable, Captain" would be much more clear, since both of these things are fairly common parlance, and have something approximating delineation. ARandomRedditorWikipediist (talk) 20:17, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

ARandomRedditorWikipediist, Darryl Kerrigan: I think the comma separation would be OK but really the best solution is to get rid of Captain. It's already in "military" at the bottom of the infobox, and I would be very surprised if anyone is actually addressed as "Captain the Honourable" these days. There are a few instances of it in 19th century British texts (see [4]), but I think it's awkward and unnecessary in this context. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 20:25, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

@Username6892: Just wondering if you had any thoughts on the above? AleatoryPonderings (talk) 17:11, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

AleatoryPonderings, I don't have any experience with honorifics. Username⁶⁸⁹² 17:13, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Gotcha. Will see if there's anything in MOS about this. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 17:43, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

@Dormskirk:, do you have any thoughts on the use of "Captain the Honourable"? Not specifically a military biography but figure you'd have some knowledge about the topic? WildComet (talk) 01:50, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

We should remove his former rank and use only "The Honourable". Other politicians like John Kerry and John McCain do not have their former military titles/ranks at the top of their infoboxes.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk)

Sorry, but as he is no longer a military figure, I do not have enough expertise to give a reliable view on this. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 08:32, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

FWIIW, this is also an issue at Harjit Sajjan. I would argue it should change there too.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 17:12, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Substantial duplication

I was gonna use {{Backwards copy}}, but I'm not sure whether I should. Apparently, there is a Steam profile which is the official profile of or is an impersonator of the leader of the Conservative Party. Their description appears to be a substantial duplication of much of this article. The profile is an administrator of the group "Conservative Party of Canada" and the previous names include "Andrew Scheer" and "Rona Ambrose". Username⁶⁸⁹² 15:33, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

I found another duplication in a press release by the Quebec Conservative Party (Earwig). Username⁶⁸⁹² 21:19, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

former deputy leader Peter MacKay

"winning that leadership election and defeating former cabinet minister Peter MacKay on the third ballot."

Mackay should be noted as the former deputy leader of the Conservative Party as that is more relevant than him being a former Cabinet minister.49.3.72.79 (talk) 03:07, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

His position on genocide?

He has recently, repeatedly claimed that the residential school system was nothing more than educational, while also falsely claiming that P.E.T. opened more schools than Ryerson.

I will leave someone else to deal with this particular issue, since my attitude about genocide denial, and the callous racist attitude he brings to it precludes me from being able to be unbiased. I KNOW people who survived the residential school system, and O'Toole's dismissal of the atrocity as some kind of alarmist leftist propaganda is disgusting. Somewhocallmedan (talk) 06:19, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

What did O'Toole say about residential schools?

All I know is he said they were "created to provide education but became horrible." He's right. The conditions did become horrible. What is controversial about that? Or am I missing something? Was it far-left propaganda exaggerating his words? Or was it a far-right statement that white supremacists celebrated?SweetMilkTea13 (talk) 20:44, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

It's partisan in nature and doesn't belong on Wikipedia, as I myself am biased. I think the best course of action would be to take it off, discuss it here in the talk page and ultimately decide whether it should stay or go. As this statement was originally brought to light by press progress, who can reasonably be described as left-wing propaganda, it needs to be held under significant scrutiny. - CanadianCon2020 (talk) 17:12, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

@CanadianCon2020: I am not entirely sure whether the info is WP:DUE in the article, though regarding the sourcing, it was quickly picked up by multiple reliable sources (a couple of which were sourced, PressProgress was not sourced there) and O'Toole later apologized, causing more attention. The reason I think it may be undue is because it was a comment that got attention and was quickly forgotten by most, which has happened before. When it was added by an IP a few days ago, I rewrote the section as context for his view about the issue's importance. I think that's the best solution given that it provides context for that position (which was also removed with your revert). Username6892 18:20, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

@Username6892: Sorry I've been away for a while, yep that makes sense, in the grand scheme of things, not sure how notable of a story it is in general but it's not worth making a fuss over, to be honest. I'm fine leaving it as is.

- CanadianCon2020 (talk) 16:48, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Erin O'Toole/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jaguar (talk · contribs) 00:33, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

I'll get to this soon. I quite like Erin. ♦ jaguar 00:33, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

@Jaguar: Do you still plan on getting to this? If the review is partially done, I'd recommend posting the recommendations for certain sections of the article here so I can do them while you finish reviewing the rest of the article. Username6892 02:00, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Apologies for the delay Username6892. I meant to do this earlier today but I've been very busy this week. I promise to finish the review tomorrow. ♦ jaguar 02:08, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Lead

• "simplifying federal taxes, allowing provinces to not have a carbon tax" - perhaps link carbon tax (or maybe Carbon pricing in Canada is more apt)
• The lead summarises the article per WP:LEAD, so I see no issues here

 Done

Political career

• "O'Toole considered entering the Ontario PC leadership election race" - some readers may not know what PC here stands for. I'd write this out fully: Ontario Progressive Conservatives leadership election race
• "His tone was angrier than during his election run" - whose tone? The previous sentence mentioned Poilivere, for a moment I thought this was referring to him
• "which he said was because he was increasingly worried about the country after 5 years under a Trudeau government" - this doesn't read well. Also small numbers should be preferably in prose (five years)
• "The next week, he revealed his Shadow Cabinet. Most roles changed from those of the previous one led by Andrew Scheer" - this can be combined into one sentence to improve flow. Something like O'Toole formed his Shadow Cabinet the following week, changing most of the roles from the previous one led by Andrew Scheer.
• "He appointed himself as the critic of middle class prosperity" - 'appointed' alludes that middle class prosperity is an office
• " Following its failure after the Liberals declared it to be a confidence vote" - shouldn't this be Following its failure after the Liberals declared it to be a vote of no confidence?

• I left this one (for now) as RS referred to it as a "confidence vote" or "confidence test".

• "noting his experience in his hometown of Bowmanville watching auto workers lose their jobs" - how about noting his experience of watching auto workers lose their jobs in his hometown of Bowmanville

 Done

Political positions

• "He has called for an incentive to reduce employment insurance premiums small and medium-sized businesses pay for new employees" - missing word between 'premiums' and 'small?' that small and medium-sized businesses pay?
• "'Toole believes the path to reconciliation involves a focus on the economy in Indigenous communities" - link Indigenous peoples in Canada
• "O'Toole claims that the economy will be unstable if Canada does not have rapid testing or a vaccine. When distribution of a vaccine was on the horizon" - COVID-19 vaccine should be linked in its first mention. Also 'on the horizon' seems a tad informal here, maybe replace it with just near
• "after the Canada Emergency Response Benefit (CERB) runs out to summer 2021" - in?
• The paragraphs in the Social issues subsection appear short and choppy. The four paragraphs could be safely merged into two to improve flow
• "violations using provisions of the Sergei Magnitsky Act" - remove Sergei
• "claiming China controls the company is controlled" - remove this
• "He would give other providers tax credits to replace their infrastructure. He would pressure other countries" - this would flow better if combined. Replace this with and apply pressure

 Done

Overall this is a solid article with no glaring issues. It meets the criteria on comprehensibility, is well written and the sources all check out. I'll leave this  On hold until the above (albeit fairly minor) issues are clarified. Good work with this one. ♦ jaguar 13:47, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

@Jaguar: I've responded to all your comments. Username6892 15:30, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for addressing them and good work. This looks good to go! ♦ jaguar 23:59, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Content also used in Conservative Party of Canada

The content was also added to the article Conservative Party of Canada in the section I created, National Council.Oceanflynn (talk) 17:28, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:14, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Erin O'Toole

• ... that during his leadership of the Conservative Party of Canada, Erin O'Toole (pictured) started marketing his party to unionized workers? Source: National Post
  • ALT1:... that Erin O'Toole (pictured) pursued law following the completion of his military service? Source: Archived
  • ALT2:... that during his 2020 campaign for the leadership of the Conservative Party of Canada, Erin O'Toole (pictured) successfully marketed himself to socially conservative voters despite being pro-abortion? Source: Toronto Star National Post
  • ALT2A:... that during his 2020 campaign for the leadership of the Conservative Party of Canada, Erin O'Toole (pictured) successfully marketed himself to socially conservative voters despite being pro-choice? Source: Toronto Star National Post

• Reviewed: 4th nomination
• Comment: No preference between the first two hooks

Improved to Good Article status by Username6892 (talk). Self-nominated at 00:30, 31 December 2020 (UTC).

• Is he really "pro-abortion"? Or just against laws that excessively restrict abortion? (t · c) buidhe 07:34, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

• Buidhe, I think he's the latter so I added "pro-choice" as an ALT 2A. Username6892 12:21, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

• Any updates on this? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 01:53, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

• @Narutolovehinata5: A full review is needed. Username6892 01:06, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

@Buidhe: Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 01:17, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

• GA Article, timely nominated, approve hook 2a, image freely licensed, passes earwig (some passages flagged). I'm not a fan of the picture, also, the hook as written doesn't appear in the article - but I'm passing it anyway as it is hooky. --evrik ^(talk) 16:14, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

• The hook should be in the article. SL93 (talk) 21:45, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

• @SL93: What about an ALT3:...that during his 2020 campaign for the leadership of the Conservative Party of Canada, Erin O'Toole (pictured) made a platform catering to Quebec nationalist voters? Source: National Post Username6892 03:44, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

• I'm approving ALT3. SL93 (talk) 22:24, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

— Preceding undated comment added 00:00, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

2021 Election

There was some concern about indicating the campaign slogan of the Conservatives under the subsection of the 2021 Canadian Election because the slogan of campaigns for other parties are not indicated in the pages for those party leaders - this seems like a catch-22 since the pages for the NDP and Liberal leaders are locked, and not possible to edit.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Traincoats (talk • contribs)

@Traincoats: I reverted your edit to the 2021 election section of this article because I felt what you were adding was undue weight on an issue already covered in the economic policy as well as the fact that I could not find precedent for including slogans, particularly those without notable coverage in reliable secondary sources, in the article. If perhaps you think I did not provide enough weight to that part of O'Toole's platform initially I think it would be better to be added to the political positions section. Regarding his slogan, if you can find coverage in reliable, secondary sources about his slogan that is more than just a mention (perhaps analyzing it?) then it should be added to the article, though I have not seen any yet. Username6892 16:00, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Regarding your concerns over the other leaders, I think that the editors who can edit those pages would have added them had they been useful to add to the article. Username6892 16:02, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

@Username6892: I have updated the content to include reference to all campaign slogans, and to be more succinct. Regarding your trust in the editors of those pages, please consider recent news articles on the bias of Wikipedia editors: https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/wikipedia-bias-1.6129073 Traincoats (talk) 16:17, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

I merged the remaining succint content about that policy to the preexisting section given they were largely duplicated and it fit better with his other positions. I'm still unsure as to whether the "many opponents believe xxx" part is biased so I'm searching through the Manual of Style to try and find guidelines for this. Username6892 16:42, 21 August 2021 (UTC)