Talk:Ephebophilia/Archive 1

Old discussion

Also spelt ephebephilia - I'm not sure which is the prefered or most common spelling.

And doesn't it strictly mean attraction to adolescent boys? -- Daran 06:59, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)

a) This spelling is the most used.

b) It is used in both ways. Often Christians refers only to homosexual ephebophilia. It is the same for hebephilia. Wildt 16:38, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

You wrote that it was not seen as a paraphilia or disorder. Probably it was just not listed under the term you were looking for. Check [1]. Get-back-world-respect 21:59, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

(1) Check what? Adolescentism doesn't refer to epehebophilia, but to dressing like a teenager. The page doesn't say otherwise.

(2) E.g. John Money, who is mentioned on the site and coined the term (paraphilia), does not use paraphilia meaning a sexual disorder but just meaning sexual orientation.

(3) Why did you delete the part about ICD-10 and DSM-IV? Wildt 01:00, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

(1) Check the link I provided as you apparently did. It is a dictionary of sexology written by a Pschology Ph.D. and covers ephebophilia as a chronophilia. Adolescentilism is defined as "the paraphilia of impersonating an adolescent and being treated as one by the partner. One of the stigmatic/eligibilic paraphilias" there. (2) Paraphilia is commonly used for sexual disorder, described in that way in our own article, defined as "a condition occurring in men and women of being compulsively responsive to and obligatively dependent upon an unusual and personally or socially unacceptable stimulus, perceived or in the imagery of fantasy, for optimal initiation and maintenance of erotosexual arousal and the facilitation or attainment of orgasm [from Greek, para-, altered + -philia]. Paraphilic imagery may be replayed in fantasy during solo masturbation or intercourse with a partner. In legal terminology, a paraphilia is a perversion or deviancy; and in the vernacular it is kinky or bizarre sex" on the page I linked to. (3) I deleted the misleading statement because it made believe ephebophilia was not seen as a paraphilia clinically, which is not the case. The articles we have do not have lists, and the web page has [2] for Sexual Disorders not otherwise specified. Get-back-world-respect 00:12, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

(1) I have never before heard that ephebophilia is a paraphilia NOS. It is not mentioned in DSM or ICD. If it were a disorder to like teenagegirls don't you think it would be listed (and not be NOS)?

(2) Ephebophilia is not a paraphilia, since it does not meet the general criteria (which are also listed on your site).

(3) If it was a disorder 20-50% of men would have it.

(4) If it was a disorder it would still require distress or impairment.Wildt 05:35, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

1) You read the site of the Ph.D. sexologist. Also note that pedophelia is defined as "Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger)". People who feel attracted by 14 year olds are not automatically excluded, nor are people attracted to children in the process of puberty, and there is no clear line in between.

2) Proven wrong by the link of the Ph.D. sexologist. You can hold the opinion, you cannot claim it is "the truth". The behavenet site defines paraphilia as "mental disorders characterized by sexual fantasies, urges, or behaviors involving non-human objects, suffering or humiliation, children (Pedophilia) or other non-consenting person." Postpubescents includes those who are still children, and they are often non-consenting.

3) Other disorders like dyslexia, depression or alcoholism are very frequent, so that is not the question. I doubt that 20-50% have over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a postpubescent child or a non-consenting child. If 20-50% of the population answered they had once in their life felt aroused by a shoe it would not mean they were all fetishists.

4) So you cannot imagine that it causes distress and impairment to feel attracted to a child? To feel attracted to those you cannot reach consensus with because they are easily influenced by you and not mature enough to decide on their own or to understand the consequences? To feel attracted to those whom to have sex with is a crime? To feel attracted to those who will not remain as you like them for more than some years? Think about it. Get-back-world-respect 09:13, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What is considered a paraphilia is based on moral and political grounds and not the result of research. Sexology is about sexual orientations and not about whether sexual acts are legally and morally acceptable. --Moonlight shadow 10:28, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Just because you do not like it does not mean your private opinion is more important than sexologist studies like that of psychologist G.F. Pranzarone, Ph.D. Get-back-world-respect 17:25, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This not my personal opinon (See: Archives of sexual behavior vol. 31 no. 6 December 2002, Is pedophilia a mental disorder?). Whether an organisation of sexologists considers something as a paraphilia, is a political decision. You can not take the fact that someone classified ephebophilia as a paraphilia, as an argument to morally condemn it or legally prohibit it. It is the other way round. --Moonlight shadow 17:59, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It seems to be your personal opinion, which is not shared by the whole rest of the world. You seem to believe that when sexologists write something that goes along with what you like it is science, and when it does not fit with your personal preferences it is politically influenced propaganda. I do not morally condemn anyone because of sexual orientation, I condemn those who defend child abuse and those who do not search therapeutical help although they know that they have a sexual orientation that makes them potentially dangerous to themselves and others. Get-back-world-respect 21:00, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No, I do not consider it propaganda. There may be reasons for that a pedophile or ephebophile wants treatment. One argument for considering pedophilia a disorder was that such a therapy can be payed by the health insurance. This is a political consideration but not propaganda. So whether ephebophilia is considered a paraphilia does not say anything about ephebophilia itself.

It is not dangerous to fall in love with children at all. Thus not every pedophile needs therapy. There are/were also people (criminals?) who want to legalise certain drugs or abortion, so there is no reason, why this should be different for adult-child-sex. --Moonlight shadow 19:05, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The main argument why pedophiles need treatment is not it is paid by the insurance. The insurance pays it because they need it. They need it because when "over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a postpubescent child or a non-consenting child" mean that you are in danger of committing crimes, harming innocents. As many pedophiles are aware of this danger and have a bad conscience many suffer from depression, some even commit suicide. Therapy can help. The comparison with drugs is ill-matched as harming yourself by "broadening" your mind for some time does not necessarily mean you harm others. Smoking pot is not in itself directed towards driving under the influence of an illicit drug. Pedophelia's very nature makes pedophiles act on children, often in a harmful and therefore forbidden way. Get-back-world-respect 23:37, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I find the sentence "From a biological point of view, ephebophilia is not considered a disorder or perversion" strange. The terms "disorder" and "perversion" come from psychology, not biology, as far as I know. Get-back-world-respect 23:38, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think it's meant to introduce the idea being expressed in the rest of the paragraph. Still, I see your point. What do you propose?

Acegikmo1 20:33, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I just delete the sentence. As you rightly say, it is covered in what follows. Get-back-world-respect 00:23, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

External links

May I ask why we an external link "Catholics United for the Faith - Sex abuse position paper" that reads "The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial." is appropriate here, but a link to an organization that helps people with chronophilia by encouraging them to seek psychological treatment is not? Get-back-world-respect 00:19, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

adolescentilism

This term refers to someone who pretends to be an adolescent, not to someone who is attracted to them. Not a synonym, so I removed it. Isomorphic 05:56, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Child sexual abuse

Yesterday I went to Berlin's meeting of wikipedians and spoke with the head of the German wikimedia organization, Kurt Jansson. He said that the problems with the articles related to pedophilia and abuse were well known for quite some time and probably started with a posting in a forum for pedophiles about wikipedia as a great opportunity to spread the message that sex with adults is helpful for children. He already mentioned it in an interview with a newspaper in order to increase awareness of the problem. In the German pages the most notorious abuser is de:Benutzer:Mondlichtschatten, his english version - or at least one of them - is user:Moon_light_shadow. Here user:Zanthalon seems to play the main role. Checking their contribution lists tells easily which articles need a complete rewrite: List of self-identified pederasts and pedophiles, Childlove movement, pedophilia, Child sexuality, Child pornography, Child sexual abuse, Capturing the Friedmans, Rind et al.. I put the german articles on the list of articles that lack neutrality and need more care - the latter was immediately reverted by guess who. Please help taking care of the trouble. Get-back-world-respect 12:30, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

We must also guard against those who are too emotive and overtly counter-ephebophile to neutrally edit or contribute to these articles. These individuals should also be added to such a list. --Oldak Quill 20:14, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

---

What about women's attraction to adolescent boys? Is it common? The article concentrates on men and girls for some reason. Paranoid 00:08, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

This is a very good point. My guess is that the studies cited have only been conducted on males. Also, I noticed that you added something to the article about Japan: "sexual relations with teenage girls are...often illegal". I may be wrong, but isn't the age of consent in Tokyo 12?

Acegikmo1 04:46, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The national age of consent is 13, but most local prefectures have higher ages of consentNik42 01:28, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The sexual desire of a female adult for an adolescent male is not overly well documented, with the possible societal cause whereby (pre-)adolescent males often may not believe that it is culturally wrong to be sexually active with an older female and may rather interpret it as a status symbol or something to be sought out rather than reported or guarded against. Calosiad 10:40 22 May 2006 (UTC)

---

A study on human male preferences showed that all males in the study from 7 years and up preferred the faces of 17-year-old girls. - Over what?

Presumably, over faces of older females.

That's a big presumption. Without additional specificity, one must assume the preference was over all other faces.--not logged in 14:30, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

In Japanese society the attraction towards teenage girls (high-school students) is a widespread cultural phenomenon. The manifestations of such attraction, such as school uniform fetishes and sexual relations with teenage girls are more tolerated by society than in the West, but are often illegal. - Is this reality, or just a stereotype? It sounds like just a stereotype to me, especially since the rest of the article talks about how attraction towards teenage girls is (supposedly) a universal phenomenon.

These are facts, so I suppose it's reality, not just a stereotype. There are many things in Japan related to teenage girls as a sexual fetish that are unheard of in the West. This is not a judgement, this is just an observation. Despite the fact that attraction towards teenage girls is an international phenomenon, some of its manifestations can be found only in Japan (and perhaps neighbouring countries with similar cultures). Paranoid 20:40, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think this article needs some major cleanup. -Branddobbe 21:41, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

Be bold in cleaning it. Though I don't really think this article is in particularly bad shape.... Paranoid 20:40, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Removed section

Some argue that only men who consistently prefer prepubescent girls are practicing an unsound reproductive strategy (pedophilia), while men who prefer postpubescent girls may practice a very sound reproductive strategy (Ephebophilia). Sociobiological research shows that all primate males prefer young females. A study on human male preferences showed that all males in the study from 7 years and up preferred the faces of 17-year-old girls.

Who argue this? What study? The argument doesn't really belong in the elucidation of this article, but in an elaboration on social norms and sexual behavior -- perhaps its own section in sexual activity. +sj+ 11:14, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It's relevant to the topic, and should be re-included if references are found to support it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Astronomicalunit (talk • contribs) 17:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

History

A fuller discussion of this subject, appropriate in this article, would acknowledge that this (in a heterosexual context) has only recently been viewed as abnormal or deviant, it being common in the Middle Ages, for instance, for much older men to marry young damosels. --Daniel C. Boyer 20:40, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Cultural norms?

On the topic of Brazil, I've noticed some fishy (at least to my eyes) examples there. I'm looking on Google right now, and Daniella Sarahyba did indeed date Marcio Garcia, with the obvious big age difference. But Sarahyba would be 13 as of 1999.

I have a hunch that they met much later than 1999, but I can't confirm this. There are no English articles out there that state this "age gap" between the two up front and are non-Wikipedia related, and the rest of the articles are written in Portugese, which I can't read. So if any of you out there who can, could you check the facts on the Brazil section? --Bash 03:59, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Brazil

There were no sources at all for any of the claims about Brazil. Please feel free to re-add them if a source (newspaper article, etc.) could be added. I've left in the claim about cultural norms in Brazil but have tagged this article as needing better sources. --Joshua 17:16, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

And don't vandalise my user page just because you don't like my edit. If you feel that Brazilian ephebophilia is "totally true", then please make an appropriate edit with appropriate sources. --Joshua

loli and shota-con

Bold textLolicon and shotacon frequently reffer to pedophilia. The wikipedia loli article describes it as an attraction to prepubescent girls and has a picture of one, and the shota-con article seems to suggest this as well. Lotusduck 22:06, 10 January 2006 (UTC) Lolicon says "prepubescent" and "8-13", shota-con similarly says prepubescent. Lolicon in america especially refers to pedophilia. Please explain how it refers to ephebophilia. Lotusduck 00:33, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Cause that is what it said in the lead. I'll defer to your expertise. -00:44, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Ah thanks. It is confusing because Nabokovs lolita is post pubescent and gothic lolita is something else entirely. Maybe I'll try and change the other article. Lotusduck 01:24, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

"Lolita" may have a different meaning in Japan than in the West. -Will Beback 01:44, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Probably 'lolicon' refers to the late stages of pedophilia and the early stages of hebephilia on average, best to say it addresses both since both are fetishes, and even with the older girls they tend to be look youthful. It definately doesn't include nepiophilia though, a separate word called 'toddlerkon' addresses that fetish. Tyciol 12:12, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Asian society

"In Asian society, the attraction towards young girls is a widespread cultural phenomenon." strikes me as absurd; to group cultures from Arabia to India to Thailand to the Yupiks in northeastern Russia to China and to Japan as one group is impossible. (Not to mention that word Asian often means different things in American and British English.)--Prosfilaes 22:17, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Main Article Sounds Quite "American"

I wish not to offend my American sisters and brothers, but this article attempts to skate a fine line of trying to be impartial, but failing with the hints that "Ephebophilia" is a psychological disorder when largely it is not. I could so tell this article was written by and for Americans, as it mentions some puritanistic obsessive views as normal piece of the debate, as if their extreme views are that of a huge moderate social group.

Pedophilia is a serious psychological disorder, and is completely unrelated to Ephebophilia.

Leave it to arrogant Homo Sapiens, to see humans as separate of animals, especially in terms of the distinction between sexual maturity and bodily maturity. When it comes to studying reproductive behavior of other species, sexual maturity and adulthood is seen as one and the same. Enter some obsessive social conservatives to make a quasi-scientific debate out of this. Interesting how Western Europe, and even to a lesser extent, Canada largely looks at this as hardly a note of contention. If only everyone should start seeing nature as an ally and not the enemy.

C'est la vie.

I agree totally with the former opinion. If one reads biographies of many notable people; you will find many examples about succesfull romantic relationships with a adolescent outside United States. You would regard Gabriel García Marquez or Antonio Machado, who knew their future wifes when the former was 13 years old or the later 15 years old, as abnormal?????? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 190.25.133.121 (talk) 15:35, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

How old were Romeo and Juliet again? Should there be a mention of Shakespeare in this article as well? Or should it just be replaced entirely with a redirect to "Politically Correct" Zaphraud (talk) 21:59, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Pathological, probably, but not for this reason

In regards to:

Others argue that a consistent preference for adolescents is merely normal attraction to individuals at or near the peak of their sexual capability, and reflects a biologically normal reproductive strategy [citation needed](in contrast to a preference for pre-pubescents, which does not and is therefore pathological).

There are a couple problems with this. For one thing, it doesn't say who argues which is bad form in itself (I cringe when I see the phrase "some argue" in wikipedia without attribution). And for another, whoever it is that argues this probably isn't much of an authority because they apparently don't know much about what makes something a pathology. Whether something is pathological or not has nothing to do with reproductive stratagies. The only people who think this are people that know the a bare smidgling of evolutionary theory (something about "survival of the fittest"), but neglected the important stuff that actually makes one understand where its applicable and where its beyond its scope. Pathology has nothing to do with reproductive strategeies. For illustration: a male wearing a condom while having sex with a female is not a good reproductive strategy, nor is homosexuality, but these behaviors are certainly not pathological. As a matter of fact, some behaviors that are great reproductive strategies would be deemed pathological by most people. (Ghengis Khan raping thousands of women; or men who move around impregnatating women after promises of marriage after which they skip town to do it again).

It doesn't matter if our biological drives make a certain type of sexual attraction "normal" within a biological framework. That has nothing to do with whether it is considered pathological or acceptable by society. What DOES determine that is cultural norms. And in our society, for better or worse (probably better--for ephebophilia I mean, obviously for pedophilia--IMHO, but thats irrelevant) has normalized to deeming it wrong.

Anyhow, I'm removing the material, until the argument is attributed to a published source. (but even then, it would be iffy because the person making the argument would probably not be much of an authority, but as long as its attributed to an important author--theres no dirth of important authors with very little understanding of what makes something pathological--it'd have to be grudgingly accepted as "an argument" I suppose)Brentt 18:06, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the removal of the material due to its being unsourced, but I absolutely reject the notion that pathology is something that can be determined by political fiat. Going by this reasoning, criticism of government is pathological because in Soviet Russia government critics were judged shizophrenic and interned in mental hospitals. Or, a behavior is pathological up to the border but no longer pathological in the neighboring country. Haiduc 11:55, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

lets continue this on our talk pages. Brentt 19:38, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Pathology is a medical term. For something to be pathological means that it is related to a disease, in this case, one would assume a mental illness. In this respect, it would be wrong to call Ephebophilia a pathological condition because it diverges from a cultural norm. If one is going to use the term pathological in its non-medical sense of "diverging from normal", one should point out that they are not using it in the medical sense, and allow that Ephebophilia has not been divergent in all cultures, nor over the course of history. --nli

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.175.67.48 (talk) 02:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

If we're gonna remove that because it's unsourced then theres a whole lot of other things in that article that are unsourced that need removing.

69.30.182.166

$0.02: Pathological means leading to the disease or death of the organism. It applies to individuals, not species. Bad reproductive strategies may be bad for survival, but they're not pathological unless they also tend to kill the individuals of the species. Imho.Eaglizard (talk) 23:45, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't necessarily agree that an individual is not pathological unless their pathology leads to their death...considering that pathological can also mean relating to, or manifesting behavior that is habitual and compulsive. Either way, the above debated text has been removed. Flyer22 (talk) 02:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Amant.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

awareness

on the bit "Some adolescents are unable to understand the physical, emotional, and social consequences of sexual activity..." I would say that most adults dont concern themselves fully with all those considerations, so its not that people cant understand, its that they choose not to think about the deeper ramifications. Terrasidius (talk) 15:39, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

But isn't that just your opinion? One I don't agree with as it happens. Thanks, SqueakBox 15:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course, no I only wanted to get my two pence in there :) But I do think that looking at the rising divorce rates, gradual fall of religious influence over (most) peoples private affairs and a more liberal attitude in society, in general, towards sex and related things that people are (generaly) alot more relaxed as far as asking themselves the big questions of their sexual, psychological and ethical motivations regarding their sex lives et cetera. -EDIT- and of course young people are alot more sophisticated about such things nowadays.Terrasidius (talk) 16:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Editor placing neutral point of view tag on article

The editor Raven in Orbit has given this article problems before, as witnessed above on this talk page and in this article's edit history, all due to his POV. He has now placed a Neutral Point of View tag on this article simply because he does not like that the definition of ephebophilia does not consider it a mental disorder and because he cannot distinguish the difference between a 7-year-old and a 17-year-old. In fact, by placing the wording "adolescents childrens" (yes, he actually said "adolescents childrens"), he does not even seem to be able to tell the difference between being sexually attracted to a 9-year-old and a 19-year-old. Not to mention that ages 16 and 17 are commonly legal ages for a legal or older adult to engage in sex with, and are not seen as true children in that regard. Thus, calling them children in this article would not be NPOV (neutral point of view). I would not be surprised if Raven in Orbit thinks of Hugh Hefner, who commonly dates and has sex with 18 and 19-year-olds, as suffering from a mental disorder. Raven in Orbit acts as though pedophilia is the same as ephebophilia, and even as though hebephilia is the same as ephebophilia. Keep in mind that hebephilia is the sexual preference for pubescent children, where 12-year-olds are sometimes included, and is clearly different from the sexual preference to a postpubescent 17-year-old (who may or may not be about to turn 18). While a 15-year-old guy who has just hit puberty (late bloomer) could be considered a pubescent, they are also sometimes postpubescent, and the term hebephilia always means pubescent, thus hebephilia and ephebophilia are not the same thing. They are especially not the same thing considering that 13 looks very physically different from 16, 17 and up. But no matter about the hebephilia mention, seeing as I took that out.

Raven in Orbit has also (3 times) edited the hatnote and lead of this article to say that ephebophilia is an obsession (though I and another editor reverted it). He did not even bother to make it state "sexual obsession"...which he should have, considering that just saying "obsession" does not specify anything. While I do look at ephebophilia as an obsession, it is not defined that way (at least not usually). And if I were going to classify it as such in the lead of this article, I would provide a reference. Raven in Orbit does not provide any references for his damaging alterations, and yet asks and expects others to provide references for stuff that is already referenced or does not have to be. The Pedophilia article, which is about a sexual preference for prepubescent children, is not defined as a sexual obsession (not solely, I mean); it is defined as a sexual preference. Thus, so should this article be defined as a sexual preference, which is about the sexual preference (not random sexual attraction) to mid to late adolescents (teenagers).

Basically, there is nothing non-neutral about this article's lead in any of the incarnations Raven in Orbit has objected to. It is basically stating facts.

Comments on this matter from others will be much appreciated. Flyer22 (talk) 22:51, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I've not read much of the history of this article, so I can only comment on a few things at this time. The term "obsession" in the context of ephebophilia would be an incorrect use of the term. An obsession is a mental preoccupation that is intrusive and occupies thoughts where it would be inappropriate. It may seem at first, in the grip of strong emotion, that the term "preference" does not do ephebophilia justice. But it is in fact correct: It is just a statement of fact that an ephebophile prefers adolescents to mature adults. There is not need for hyperbole.

I feel a certain empathy for Raven in Orbit's point and the ideas that are behind it. Is such a preference kind of warped? Yes, it is. Is it a mental illness? No, not according to the DSM (mind the DSM is for clinical work, not research). There comes a point as the preferred age gets older and older the that perpetrator is not so much insane as just a...well....pig. But no, pedophilia and ephebophilia are not synonyms by any means.Legitimus (talk) 02:18, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I think any sexual preference (to adults, pubescent youths, or children) can become an obsession, but sexual preferences do not become an obsession for most people. A sexual preference should not be called an obsession.

Describing 15-19 year old adolescents as children is also inappropriate. Most men have a preference for 18-19 year olds, but not for young children.

An ephebophile may be diagnosed with "sexual disorder not otherwise specified" for legal reasons (mandatory medical treatment) if he or she has an illegal relationship with a pubescent youth, however there is no diagnosis of ephebophilia. Jenever Spirit (talk) 12:41, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you guys for answering. I will now alter the article back to its state before Raven in Orbit edited it yesterday, though I will put sexual preference in the hatnote instead of attraction (and will leave hebephilia out of the lead). Ephebophilia is not simply an attraction, anyway, as we know, considering that plenty of normal men and women have found mid to late teenagers sexually attractive at one point or another; that is why they are called jailbait (jailbait in referring to teenagers a little under 18). Ephebophilia is a sexual preference.

I do look at pedophilia as obsession, considering that it is viewed by the medical community as including obsessive or intrusive sexual fantasies about prepubescent children, but that does not take away from the fact that it should not flat-out be defined as an obsession, and neither should ephebophilia. Even more so for ephebophilia, considering that older adults who have a sexual preference for mid to late teenagers can get a replica of that in early 20-somethings (unlike pedophiles, who cannot truly be sexually/romantically satisfied by being with adults). Many mid to late teenagers actually look no younger than early 20-somethings. This is why 17-year-olds can easily lie about their age and say that they are 21. It's why so many early 20-somethings can easily portray mid to late teenagers in plays, television and movies. I've seen 15-year-old girls who could easily blend in with my mid 20-something female friends, and it's mind-boggling. Though most 15-year-olds (guys or girls) I see do not look the same age as 19 and 20-year-olds.

My point is...how can a legal adult being sexually attracted to 16-year-old be a mental disorder when that 16-year-old could stand beside an 18-year-old and not look any physically different age-wise than that 18-year-old? Are we really saying that despite this, sexual attraction to a 16 or 17-year-old is a mental disorder but sexual attraction to an 18 or 19-year-old is not? Really? What, besides the law, makes them so physically or mentally different age-wise? And are we really saying that 16 and 17-year-olds are truly children? Really? Then I suppose when a 17-year-old guy sexually abuses a 7-year-old girl (and, yes, it would be sexual abuse), we should say it's okay or it's not as bad since they are both children. Whatever to that. As far as I'm concerned, that 17-year-old is an adult and should be sentenced to prison, just as if he were 18. Hell, actual child-on-child sexual abuse is bad enough by itself. What is or is not a mental disorder is not based on age of consent or age of majority. If it were, then what if the age of consent or age of majority were mostly set at age 21, would that then mean that any legal adult sexually attracted to someone under 21 is suffering from a mental disorder? That's my point. The only way that it would be a mental disorder is if it's a sexual attraction to an actual child.

We have an obligation on this site to present truth and to not confuse people, especially on a subject (like ephebophilia) where some people confuse it with another term (pedophilia). In the case of pedophilia and ephebophilia, this only happens because the law states that people are not adults until they turn 18, even though a 17-year-old body is hardly any different from an 18-year-old body. While I look at any adult, except very young adults, being sexually interested in a 15-year-old as a little warped, I do not look at it as a mental disorder. Especially not if it's not so much a sexual interest but rather a sexual attraction. The only way that I could look at it as a mental disorder is if that 15-year-old had not hit puberty or had just hit puberty and looks no different than 11 (though it's difficult to imagine any girl not hitting puberty until age 15). An adult, except 18 or 19-year-old adults, having a sexual preference for 15-year-olds I see as even more warped, but it is not classified as a mental disorder. And if adults having a sexual attraction or preference for mid to late teenagers was considered a mental a disorder, this world would be in a whole lot more trouble, as clear by the points I have brought up about this on this talk page (today and months ago). It (the world) is already somehwat in added trouble due to the confusion about these subjects that's already out there. Flyer22 (talk) 19:14, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Flyer22 asked me if I had any input to provide on this discussion. I agree with much of what has already been said and can offer only some technical corrections:

• I would caution against confusing the terms that refer to chronological ages (e.g., attraction to persons age 11-14) with the terms that refer to developmental status (e.g., attraction to pubescents, etc.). It is the physical appearance that someone finds sexually attractive (perceiving a chronological age isn't what triggers the brain's sex centres). Mentions of chronological ages are merely approximate averages for when the relevant human developmental stages occur.
• I would also remind that the legal age of consent in different jurisdictions does not impact the selection of the technical term correctly that describes a person's sexual interests. For example, ephebophilic behavior being legal (ethical, moral, whatever) does not change whether the person is' an ephebophile in the first place.
• The analogous is true regarding whether ephebophilia is categorized as a paraphilia in the DSM. A person is or is not ephebophilic regardless of whether ephebophilia an in the DSM.
• I agree with Legitimus that obsession, in the medical/psychological sense, is incorrect. One could argue that obsession in the lay sense might fit. But in the context of an encyclopedic page, these two senses are easily confused; non-ambiguous terms are needed.
• There exists evidence, by my team and by other groups, that the brain structure and function of pedophiles and hebephiles are different from those of teleiophiles. There is no equivalent set of research findings about ephebophiles (although there really hasn't been any effort to discover any).
• Jenever Spirit wrote that an ephebophile might be diagnosed "sexual disorder not otherwise specified." Although there exists latitute in when to apply NOS diagnoses, I have never seen that diagnosis used for ephebophilia. (By contrast, Paraphilia NOS has been used as to diagnose hebephilia.) Moreover, I have never seen treatment being compelled for someone attracted to 15-19 year olds. (Although an ephebophilic person might certainly have a second paraphilia that is diagnosed as Paraphilia NOS leading to court-mandated treatment.)

— James Cantor (talk) 13:56, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Article Importance

I am curious why the article has been ranked of low importance. Perhaps because there is not much written yet? This seems like an important topic given the age-of-consent laws in the U.S. and elsewhere, and the prevalence of incarceration as a punishment for statutory rape. Fulvius (talk) 09:20, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I suppose this article is rated low in regards to Wikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality because it is not high on sex experts' lists, as in not much research has been done on this subject and it is not that difficult to understand how an older adult may find a mid to late teenager sexually attractive. However, having a sexual preference for mid to late teenagers, which is what this article is about, is less understandable than a passing sexual attraction to them (such as in the case of late teenagers, considering that they usually can pass as early 20-somethings and it makes you ponder why the older adult wouldn't just go after an early 20-something), and one would think that the preference would be more studied than it is. But it simply is not. Flyer22 (talk) 10:33, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Besides that, age of consent and statutory rape are pretty well covered in their own articles. Flyer22 (talk) 10:36, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Science, culture and law

I feel the first paragraph of Characteristics needs some reworking and perhaps expansion, though I not sure how to word it. One concern I have is it seems as though the paragraph spends its time trying to correct the misconception of the concept, but doesn't really explain the concept itself in enough detail. I think a cultural take based on modern cultures needs some mentioned too, in addition to the older/"primitive" ones already mentioned.

For example, modern industrialized nations place a massive emphasis on chronological age. We use date of birth on everything remotely legal or medical, and age is a paramount factor in so many rights and privileges. Driver's license, R-rated movies, voting, military service, pornography, drinking, firearm ownership, car rental, public office, etc. Such an emphasis influences our popular perceptions too, referring to age of consent law. Now I specifically didn't go ahead with any editing because I didn't want to come across like I was making excuses for the predatory types. To the contrary, I see it in an inverse light: I've worked with 21 year olds who do not need to be having sex because they are not ready for it emotionally. I've known people WAY older than the local driving age who sure as hell should not be allowed to drive a car. I've seen people in their early 20's who look so undeveloped they appear to be 13 years old.

Further regarding culture, the oft-cited example of Mark Foley is interesting in that the amount of press and emotional outbursts it received has more involved than just age (the age of consent in Washington DC and Maryland is 16 after all). It was culturally considered repugnant in the US because

• a) it was misuse of a position of trust and power (are very frequent comorbidity with large age gaps)
• b) it was same-sex (let's face it, Americans are still rather homophobic and the press tends to fixate on same-sex predators)
• c) Foley is Republican (a party known for its not-so-friendly views on homosexuality)

I'm not trying to rock boat here, just encourage development of this somewhat short article. Legitimus (talk) 17:50, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Great points, Legitimus, some of which I have brought up before (mostly when talking with psychologists and people experienced with child sexual abuse topics/sexual predators after teenagers topics). I feel that you should start editing this article in the direction you pose. I'll help when I can. If you'd rather post certain versions you want to inject into this article on this talk page first, then that's fine as well, of course. Flyer22 (talk) 22:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

In addition to what you (and I) have stated about Foley, I have mentioned Brad Pitt here before and how at 26/27 he dated a 16/17 Juliette Lewis. There was no huge outcry when Pitt did that, which may partly be because he was not as famous then, but also likely due to the differences you pointed out about Foley's case. Let's not forget that Pitt was much younger with Lewis than Foley was in his scandal. Still, I highly doubt that a 26/27 year-old American star would be able to get away with dating a 16 or 17-year-old these days, mainly because of the hyped misconception in the media in recent years about what pedophilia is. But if you notice, there is no huge outrage about 16-year-old Miley Cyrus dating a 20-year-old. She was 15 when they started dating (he was 20 even then), it seems. Although...a part of that might be due to the fact that the guy is only 20 and he is not famous (unless you count his fame by association with Cyrus). Flyer22 (talk) 00:52, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Paraphilia?

This article states that "ephebophilia is not listed by name as a paraphilia in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR), or the ICD-10. This is as opposed to pedophilia, which is categorized as a specific disorder in those systems with its own diagnostic criteria."

Thus, should we list this as a paraphilia? Since ephebophilia is not typically considered a mental disorder by sex researchers, are we calling it one by listing it as a paraphilia? I mean, when should we consider it a paraphilia, when the teenager is under 18 and when the older adult is basically obsessed with sexually being with teenagers (especially in a destructive way, as the article puts it)?

As we know, the article also says, "However, ephebophilia can sometimes be diagnosed as a disorder if it results in dysfunction or exploitative behavior, either under the DSM specification 309.2, "Paraphilia Not Otherwise Specified", or under the ICD-10 F65.8 "Other disorders of sexual preference."

Thus, do we list ephebophilia as a paraphilia based on that little tidbit? Flyer22 (talk) 18:26, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I just noticed a subtle little goof. The sentence says "not listed by name as a paraphilia." True, but it also falls short: It's not listed at all in those manuals as a mental disorder. So more accurately it should say "not listed by name as a mental disorder."

Now, a "paraphilia" is a broad term that doesn't necessarily have to be a mental disorder. Rather, several of them happen to fall into the category of mental disorder because they are generally maladaptive, exploitative, or distressing.

I get that ephebophilia is not necessarily maladaptive, exploitative, or distressing in all situations. But risk of it being so are still uncomfortably present (note how it just seems to rub people the wrong way). It leads me to ponder this: If an older person purposely chooses late-adolescent partners because their mental naivete makes them more receptive to advances, is that still a paraphilia?

Legitimus (talk) 18:57, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

That's what I'm trying to figure out, Legitimus. I'll tweak the above about not being listed as a paraphilia (to instead say not listed as a mental disorder). Flyer22 (talk) 19:19, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I know that what constitutes a paraphilia is sometimes argued. I happen to find older adults (20-somethings and up) who prefer going after 15-year-old/16-year-olds sexually to be unusual, unusual in the sense that it's not the norm. But a 20-year-old going after 18-year-olds sexually, for instance, would hardly be considered "not normal." If it's a 30-year-old or older going after 18-year-olds sexually, though, that tends to "rub people the wrong way."

Paraphilia makes the point of saying that its definition is the powerful and persistent sexual interest in unusual sexual partners/objects (not normal/appropriate). 15 can be argued as "not normal" for an older adult. But exactly how much can 18 or 19 be? Can we honestly say that ages 18 and 19 are really all that different from ages 20 and 21 (not only physically but mentally)?

The thing is, we have the word ephebophilia, which includes not only 15-year-olds...but 18 and 19-year-olds as well. Flyer22 (talk) 19:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I do point out, though, that voyeurism is considered a paraphilia as well...and I wouldn't typically call that a mental disorder. As Legitimus says, paraphilia does not always automatically equate to mental disorder. Flyer22 (talk) 20:15, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Misleading text (and reference) in "Legal matters" section

In spite of what is said under "Legal matters", and in its reference from the Daily Telegraph, teacher-pupil affairs are not altogether outlawed in the UK. As the relevant section (s. 42) of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 (this bit) shows, it is only an offence if the pupil is under 18. An 18-year-old pupil would not be breaking the law by having an affair with a teacher. (The Act above only applies to England & Wales, but I believe a similar provision exists in Scottish law as well.) Loganberry (Talk) 18:18, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Editor Legitimus has taken care of this. Flyer22 (talk) 06:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Lolita

I don't think Lolita should be used as an example. She was 12 in the novel and hence pre-pubescent. Lolita would fit better under pedophilia.

No "hence" about it. Even at the 50th percentile, Lolita at 12 would have been entering the later stages of puberty. At the 3rd percentile, Lolita would have been physically mature in all aspects. Having not read Lolita, I don't know what the case was.--Prosfilaes 00:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Wonderful statistics. Skinnyweed 01:30, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

A twelve-year-old who has begun menstruating is hardly "physically mature in all aspects."

3% of the Caucasian population are at the end of puberty by all the standard indicators by 11 years and four months, at a stage achieved by the average Cacucasian girl at 15. That's physically mature, and definitely in the ephebophilia range. See the puberty article.--Prosfilaes 20:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Um.

Twelve-year-olds are short?

You are delusional?

Ignoring the personal insult, the rate of height growth is declining by the time of menarche and girls that reach menarche have on average another two inches to grow. If their adult height will be 5'6, not uncommon, they'll be as tall as the average adult female at twelve.--Prosfilaes 00:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

...

...

...

DanB DanD 00:21, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

In any case, zany menarche-fixations aside, Humbert defines the range of his attraction in the book: girls from age nine to age fourteen.

I've replaced Lolita with Marguerite Duras's The Lover. Good idea?

DanB DanD 21:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Lolita should be included in the page because her name is pretty much synonymous with this sort of fixation. Her character in the book was already pubescent, though of course not fully so. But Humbert's attraction was based on that. He was obsessed with her emerging womanhood, rather than the premature time before, or the corrupted time after. As DanD noted, his fixation was on girls age nine to fourteen, which is just a little higher than the thelarche when breasts begin to grow and is about the exact range for the menarche. At the age of 12 Lolita was easily in the middle of adolescence and is hence a good example of the object of an ephebophile's love.

Freagul 09:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Lolita should be included for the above reasons in favour. Terrasidius (talk) 16:56, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Humbert was more likely an hebephile, he liked girls who were only just showing signs of development, yet when Lolita turned 14, even then he considered her too old; and was repulsed by her growth spurt. He is not attracted to young women, or "college girls" with teenage figures, but preteens. With waif-like figures. No, 12 is not the middle of adolescence, it's an age when a girl or boy is just emerging from being a sexless child to one who is capable of developing sexual feelings and characteristics. This is what he was attracted to: sexual children... children who are just starting to feel curious about sex, but don't know enough about it to be considered "dirty" in his eyes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chocopocky (talk • contribs) 21:01, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

"ages 15-19" in the lede?

I appreciate the previous discussions on this topic, but I believe that the specific numbers should appear in the lede. The primary sources typically coined only one word each in the set of age-based -philias. Because those sources did not coordinate their work, they left ambiguity at some of their borders. The secondary source that provided the most explicit and specific definition of the whole set of terms, clarifying the boarders is, in my opinion:

Blanchard, R., Lykins, A. D., Wherrett, D., Kuban, M. E., Cantor, J. M., Blak, T., Dickey, R., & Klassen, P. E. (2008). Pedophilia, hebephilia, and the DSM–V. Archives of Sexual Behavior. DOI:10.1007/s10508-008-9399-9 here

Relevant text from that document includes:

"The DSM-IV-TR (American Psychiatric Association, 2000) defines pedophilia as the erotic preference for prepubescent children..."

"The existence of men whose erotic interest centers on pubescents has not, of course, been totally ignored. Glueck (1955) coined the term hebephiles to refer to them. This term has not come into widespread use, even among professionals who work with sex offenders. One can only speculate why not. It may have been confused with the term ephebophiles, which denotes men who prefer adolescents around 15–19 years of age (Krafft-Ebing & Moll, 1924). Few would want to label erotic interest in late- or even mid-adolescents as a psychopathology, so the term hebephilia may have been ignored along with ephebophilia..."

"There may be as many mental health professionals who have heard of ‘‘granny porn’’ as have heard of gerontophilia (the erotic preference for the aged), although the term gerontophilia was introduced at least 80 years ago (Hirschfeld, 1920). It is only a few years since anyone finally proposed a term—teleiophilia—to denote the erotic preference for persons between the ages of physical maturity and physical decline (Blanchard et al., 2000)..."

Because I am an author on that paper and because the topic is not without controversy, I will leave it for another editor to integrate into the page. (Or not.)
— James Cantor (talk) 00:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. But by putting 15 to 19 in the lead, aren't we acting as though 14 looks that different from 15 and that 19 looks that different from 20? There is often a noticeable physical age difference between 13 and 15-year-olds, though, especially the boys (considering that a lot of 13-year-olds have not hit puberty or hit puberty late at 13 or are just starting to look adult-like). Then again, I remember back in high school how we could clearly tell the Freshmen (people who were 14 at the beginning of high school) apart from the older kids (usually).

My main objection to stating the specific ages in the lead now is that I don't want people actually thinking that a sexual attraction or preference for even 18 and 19-year-olds could be labeled as a mental disorder. You know, since this article now says that in rare instances ephebophilia could be considered a mental disorder.

An editor on the Pedophilia talk page even brought up the cut-off point in this article as seemingly silly (though he has confused several things in regards to pedophilia).

I'd love for the text you've provided on this to be in the article, however. Flyer22 (talk) 01:32, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and specified ages 15 to 19 in the lead. From the Catholic sex abuse cases section below, it is clear that this is needed; people need to know right off the bat that we are not talking about "adolescents" as young as 11 (though they should already know that there is nothing "mid" about that). Flyer22 (talk) 00:20, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Distinguish-pedophilia tag?

I agree with Flyer22. Ephebophilia is an uncommon term that is easily confused with pedophilia by laypeople. I think including the tag is relevant and would be helpful to readers.
—MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 20:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

That tag is a statement needing a source. Including the tag is implying there should be a distinction between attraction to "children" and attraction to people "ages 15-19". Making that statement without any references is not helpful — it is an unsourced claim to be removed.

/ Raven in Orbit (t | c) 20:18, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Not unsourced, not POV. Pedophilia isn't the same thing as ephebophilia. Otherwise I suppose all those people sexually attracted to a then 17-year-old Britney Spears are pedophiles?

Tweak to "prepubescent children". Flyer22 (talk) 20:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Moreover, the word pedophile and the word ephebophile were invented by the same guy (Krafft-Ebing). It would be pretty bizarre to do that if he didn't intend for the words to be used differently.

—MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 21:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Still, it is unsourced and as such it is pov. No matter who invented the word for what purpose, and who is attracted by whom, it still needs references. Adding that tag to the article is not NPOV — it needs references.

This article would become much more interesting and factual if it detailed who is actually using the term.

/ Raven in Orbit (t | c) 21:19, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Writing in the Journal of the American Medical Assocation (JAMA), Fagan et al. (2002) said, "The word pedophilia comes from a term coined by Krafft-Ebing—pedophilia erotica—which literally means the erotic love of children...The term “ephebophilia” or “hebophilia”) has occasionally been used to denote an inordinately high sexual attraction to postpubescent adolescents" (p. 2459). Fagan, P. J., Wise, T. N., Schmidt, C. W. Jr., & Berlin, F. S. (2002). Pedophilia. Journal of the American Medical Assocation, 288, 2458-2465.

—MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 21:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

And who is saying "has occasionally been used to denote an inordinately high sexual attraction to postpubescent adolescents" should not be interpreted as paedophilia? Your reference above is just confirming that "someone" wants to make a distinction. What in the article, as it is now, is confirming this? Who is saying these two terms should not be confused with each other?

/ Raven in Orbit (t | c) 21:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

There are legitimate cultural and psychological constructions concerning the two attractions. That is why they are given separate articles. That is why we urge readers and editors not to confuse the concepts. We are not saying that there is no grey zone between them. forestPIG 21:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

What "legitimate" constructions? Adding a tab saying they should not be confused, is saying there is no grey zone, to me. If there would be references in the article supporting this, it might be acceptable, but there are none.

/ Raven in Orbit (t | c) 21:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Encyclopedic, psychological and etymological. Based on whether the object of desire has attained pubertal age.

What if we were to replace the tag (on both pages) with:

For attractions to (pre)pubescent youth see Pedophilia/Ephebophilia? forestPIG 22:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Here is a tag that we could work on:

{{ otheruses4|topic|other topic|location }}

As in:

This page is about ephebophilia, an attraction to pubescent youth. For pedophilia, an attraction to prepubescent youth, see Pedophilia.

forestPIG 22:17, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not underlining the distinction should be made, and with this template Wikipedia is not taking a position. That's acceptable to me.

Just a note: Someone invented the word and derived it from Greek, so of course the word has an etymology. It is in use, so of course there are reasons to include it in an encyclopaedia. This does not make any specific interpretations "legitimate".

/ Raven in Orbit (t | c) 08:22, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not taking a position by stating that ephebophilia should not be confused with pedophilia. Wikipedia is simply relaying fact by stating that ephebophilia should not be confused with pedophilia. The article even makes this distinction, even though parts of this article need to be sourced. I do not see why the tag should not distinguish this as well. You act as though there is some debate about whether the definition of pedophilia should include a sexual attraction to teenagers. There isn't one, thus Wikipedia is not taking a side, but is rather clearing up confusion and ignorance some people have concerning what pedophilia truly is.

Either way, I do not largely object to ForesticPig having changed the tag to what he suggested above. Flyer22 (talk) 20:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

There is no true grey zone

If there were a true grey zone, then the definition of pedophilia would also include mid to late teenagers; it does not. Saying that just because some people confuse the two or are too ignorant or lazy to distinguish between the meanings means these two might be the same thing is ludicrous. That's like saying that just because a few people may still believe the world is flat, we shouldn't clarify the fact that the world is round. Pedophilia is not just about if the person has hit puberty, but also how child-like they look, so maybe that is what you mean by "grey area". A person being sexually attracted to a 9-year-old girl who has just hit puberty is still called a pedophile due to her very much child-like appearance. The majority of mid to late teenagers, however, do not look like 9-year-olds.

The matter of the fact is...a person being sexually attracted to a 7-year-old is extremely different than being sexually attracted to a 17-year-old. And we should be clear about. Flyer22 (talk) 22:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You give them too much credit. The conflation of ephebophilia (or even sexuality with a small age difference that happens to go across the age of legal majority) with pedophilia in the media is intentional. The goal is to censor all sexuality that involves under-18 persons. The means is to pretend that there is no distinction between teenagers and children, as if puberty happened all at once on one's 18th birthday. It's appalling that Wikipedia takes part in that game by accepting an unscientific definition of pedophilia.--94.223.167.143 (talk) 02:42, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

What unscientific definition of pedophilia have we accepted, IP? We make clear that there is a distinction between ephebophilia and pedophilia. Flyer22 (talk) 14:36, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

And source?

What source, besides the first one, in this article proves that ephebophilia is not the same as pedophilia? Reference #7 does, in which Dr. Frederick Berlin specifically states that they are not the same thing and talks about some people confusing the two anyway. He also notes how normal men find teenagers sexually attractive, which is quite different than finding prepubescent/pre adolescent children sexually attractive. That source and many others can be placed in the lead, further validating the difference between the two. Flyer22 (talk) 23:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Of course there is a grey zone. Just because there are terms making a clear-cut distinction, doesn't mean there aren't various opinions. It certainly does not make the inclusion of that template self-evident.

Just look at the article as it is now:

1. Not to be confused with pedophilia.
2. In everyday English, the term pedophilia [...] is also colloquially used to refer to attraction to adolescents.
3. This article or section may contain original research or unverified claims.'
4. ...is common among adults of all sexual orientations.
5. Additionally, above "an inordinately high sexual attraction to postpubescent adolescents" was proposed as a definition. This is very different from #4.
6. And lastly, at the top of this talk page there is a box saying: ...consider tagging or removing uncited/unciteable information.

So, there is a need for a clarification rather than underlining a distinction at the top of the article.

Not accepting the distinction is not being "lazy and ignorant" — experts have been wrong in the past and consensus do change over time. English is not my first language, but apparently most people using this language do not make a distinction when they use the term paedophilia, so having the Ephebophilia article argue about it using that template is simply not NPOV.

/ Raven in Orbit (t | c) 08:22, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

No, there is not some true grey zone. You say experts have been wrong in the past? You do not have to be an expert to know that being sexually attracted to prepubescent children and being sexually attracted to teenagers (as long as the teenager has not just hit puberty) is not the same thing. Common sense should tell people that they are not the same thing. Age 7 does not look anything like age 17. To say that ephebophilia is the same as pedophilia is to completely ignore puberty and age, and the fact that a lot of teenagers easily look like adults. Therefore if being sexually attracted to teenagers is a mental disorder, it would mean that being sexually attracted to adults is a mental disorder as well. Because then how does it differ from being sexually attracted to adults? Pedophilia is to be sexually attracted to child-like bodies. Ephebophilia is to be mainly sexually attracted to younger adult bodies, which are what teenagers have. Most men have admitted to being sexually attracted to teenagers (one or more) at one point or another in their lives. Natalie Portman, for instance; there was a ticker men had counting down the days until she turned 18. The same for Lindsay Lohan and other teenage girls. Obviously, these men, which included some celebrities, were sexually attracted to these girls before they turned 18 and were not ashamed to admit their attraction to these girls. Do you honestly believe this would have been the case if these girls had been age 7? Would there have been a countdown until they turned 8? Of course not! Not unless these men were pedophiles. But, really, pedophiles would have been counting backwards, not up. Obviously, there is a difference. 7-year-olds look like children, plain and simple. Most 17-year-olds look like adults; they can easily lie about their age (I sure could) and say that they are 19 or 20. Why? Because most late teenagers look no physically different age-wise than early 20-somethings. It's the reason why so many early 20-somethings can easily portray mid to late teenagers in plays, television and film. At age 16/17, I certainly didn't look any different age-wise than my two 20-year-old friends. My sister, who is 19 about to be 20, certainly does not look any younger than me, enough to pinpoint that she is a teenager. Her or her friends. And at age 25 now, I look no older than my 18, 19 and 20-year-old friends and acquaintances.

Thus, to say that being sexually attracted to mid to late teenagers is pedophilia is like saying (if we are not counting 18 and 19-year-olds as teenagers) that if you are sexually attracted to a 17-year-old, you are pedophile and are suffering from a mental disorder. But if that person was just one year older, age 18, then you are perfectly normal. Do you know how idiotic that sounds?! 17 looks no physically different age-wise than age 18. Therefore, how in the hell could being sexually attracted to a 17-year-old be pedophilia and a mental disorder but being sexually attracted to an 18-year-old not be? This is why experts must distinguish between a sexual attraction to prepubescent children and a sexual attraction to teenagers. If they did not, then they would be deeming most of the human population pedophiles. The difference between prepubescent children and teenagers is also seen in our laws, such as age of consent. To say that a sexual attraction to teenagers is the same as a sexual attraction to prepubescent children is to say that America, for exmaple, is allowing pedophilia...considering that an adult having sex with 16 and 17-year-olds is perfectly legal in some states in America. America is obviously against pedophilia, so why then would it being allowing pedophilia by having age of consent be 16 or 17 if a sexual attraction to 16 or 17-year-olds is truly pedophilia? We certainly do not see age of consent for 6 and 7 year-olds. Clearly, there is a difference. A big difference. Why is it that Brad Pitt was never deemed a pedophile when he dated a then 17-year-old Juliette Lewis when he was in his late 20s? Could it be because she was 17 instead of 7? I bet. Otherwise, his career would have been over. I doubt the fact of his being a celebrity or not would have made a difference in his "dating" a 7-year-old to the public. Clearly, there is a difference. A big difference.

So all in all, yes, anyone who does not take the time to educate themselves on what pedophilia is and rather confuses it with ephebophilia is too ignorant or too lazy indeed. Even the popular show To Catch a Predator points out that those guys (at least most of them) are not pedophiles.

It does not matter if someone wants to call a sexual attraction to teenagers pedophilia. It is not. It is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of fact. So having the Ephebophilia article argue about it using that template is NPOV. And, NPOV? Notice that this article and the Pedophilia article do not argue over whether or not a sexual attraction to teenagers is pedophilia. It does not because they are not the same thing, and it is fact that they are not the same thing. People who call a sexual attraction to teenagers pedophilia mostly do it because they are not educated on the matter of what pedophilia is, do not know the word ephebophilia, or know that most other people do not know or use the word ephebophilia. If there was some true debate over pedophilia not including a sexual attraction to teenagers in its definition, then I would agree with you that it is not NPOV to state that ephebophilia should not be confused with pedophilia. But it is a fact that ephebophilia should not be confused with pedophilia. They are not the same thing. Flyer22 (talk) 16:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, now I know your opinions about all this. Opinions are fine. However, Wikipedia talk pages are not forums, so lets stay on-topic.

Per my previous posts here, there are different opinions on how to define "child" - you just mentioned US states having different views. Apparently people in general do not make that distinction simply because they don't necessarily accept it. Just because someone once defined a distinction does not mean a distinction should be made. If the article should say this there should be good arguments and sourced references. So, bring your references.

/ Raven in Orbit (t | c) 08:28, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

No, you bring your references. These are not opinions. These are facts. We have brought our references. References that do not include a sexual attraction to teenagers being pedophilia. And I am well aware that this is not a forum. Your acting as though a distinction should not be made is simply ludicrous. Thus I wanted to make my points...and did. I am completely staying on-topic. You are basically saying that if a person is sexually attracted to a 17-year-old, that is pedophilia and they are suffering from a mental disorder and that if you are sexually attracted to an 18-year-old, you are perfectly normal, even though 18 looks no physically different age-wise than 17 and 17 is perfectly legal in many countries against pedophilia. You are also acting as though there is no difference between a 7-year-old's physical appearance and a 17-year-old's physical appearance. How can a sexual attraction to prepubescent children possibly be the same as a sexual attraction to a mid to late teenagers, when one has the body and look of a child and the other has the body and often the look of an adult? How can a sexual attraction to teenagers be pedophilia when teenagers themselves can be pedophiles? Clearly, if a 17-year-old guy is sexually attracted to a 7-year-old, he has problems. What you are also implying is that if an 18-year-old guy has a 16-year-old girlfriend, then he is a pedophile, because one is an underage teenager and the other is a legal adult. Society states what is the age of consent. Pedophilia is not based on the age of consent. If so, then what if the age of consent were set at age 21 in most states, would that mean that being sexually attracted to people under 21 makes you a pedophile? You see the flaw in your logic? And the flaw in people's logic calling anyone who has sex with an underage teenager a pedophile? I am simply giving points, valid points that you cannot dispute. Valid points in which show that ephebophilia is clearly not the same as pedophilia. I mean, I suppose James Cameron was promoting pedophilia when he had the 17-year-old character Young Rose in 1997's Titanic be engaged to a 30-something Cal Hockley? And Katherine Brooks, with her cult lesbian film Loving Annabelle about the love affair between a 17-year-old girl and her 30-something female teacher? Yep, pedophilia. Laughable. I suppose all the lesbians who love that film are pedophiles and love it because it is a love story between a "child" and an adult? Still laughable.

We have references. The references define pedophilia as a sexual preference towards prepubescent children. The references define ephebophilia as a sexual preference towards mid to late adolescents. Clearly, if they meant the same thing, the definitions would not exlude the other. Your wanting the definitions to specifically say "pedophilia is not a sexual attraction to teenagers" or "ephebophilia is not a sexual attraction to prepubescent children" is like saying that the definition of murder should specifically state "someone who has not maliciously taken a life is not a murderer". But, regardless, we have references that state that pedophilia should not be confused with ephebophilia, like reference #7 mentioned above. Most people, if not all, when told what pedophilia is and what ephebophilia is understand and acknowledge the difference, even if they still sometimes use the word "pedophile" to describe an adult who has had sex with a teenager. They do not go into some large debate about these definitions and say, "Oh, no, forget what the definitions are, forget what very valid medical sources say, forget that I cannot tell a 17-year-old apart from an 18-year-old, thus forget common sense. It's all pedophilia. Yep. Because that's MY definition." Um, yes, that would be ignorance. That's like saying that no matter the definition of AIDS, "I am going to make up my own definition." Well, that is simply crazy. And you are simply wrong. Flyer22 (talk) 17:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

On Wikipedia, those who want to include information are supposed to produce references when required. If that distinction is important to you -- again -- please produce a reference!

I never said ephebophilia should be specifically defined as paedophilia in the article; I just want the note claiming it should be distinguished from it should be sourced and explained (i.e. "who says so?").

Having read that entire Frederick S. Berlin interview, I can't find anything in it supporting that "ephebophilia" should not be included into "paedophilia". The related quote is simply saying:

“ Generally, people use the term "pedophilia" to include ephebophilia. Most men can find adolescents attractive sexually, although, of course, that doesn't mean they're going to act on it. Some men who become involved with teenagers may not have a particular disorder. Opportunity and other factors may have contributed to their behaving in the way they do. ”

"Some men" does not exclude paedophilia! And it is very far from me being laughable because I want to see a reference for the distinction.

Besides, most of your contributions on this talk page are longer than the article -- please try to be more brief.

/ Raven in Orbit (t | c) 23:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Some nerve telling me to be brief. Why don't you try making sense about this? You keep keep telling us to bring references when we have. The definition of pedophilia does not include ephebophilia. The definition of ephebophilia does not include pedophilia. Your not being able to accept that fact is your problem. On Wikipedia, those who want to include information are supposed to produce references when required, and we have. I mean, Frederick S. Berlin (now reference #6), for example, specifically states:

“ The term used to describe an orientation toward pre-pubescent children is "pedophilia"... Ephebophilia is a condition in which a person is attracted not to prepubescent children but to children or adolescents around the time of puberty, basically teenagers. ”

If they meant the same thing, he would have specified that they do and would not have been clearing up that they are not the same thing. That whole part is about clearing up the fact that the media and some people confuse the two and that the two should not be confused. His saying that "some men who become involved with teenagers may not have a particular disorder" is not his saying that ephebophilia is the same or even close to the same as pedophilia. Your asking for the definition of ephebophilia to specifically state that it does not include a sexual attraction to prepubescent children is like asking that the definition of serial killer specifically state that it does not mean killing one time. The fact that the definition of serial killer means someone who kills more than one person in an obsessed spree-like style (often with cooling-off periods) of course means that serial killing is not a one-time killing "event". Well, the fact that the definition of pedophilia is the sexual preference for prepubescent children and the definition of ephebophilia is the sexual preference for mid to late teenagers...means that they are not the same thing. If they were, the definitions would include each other. It's as simple as that. We have very valid references/sources saying what pedophilia is and what it is not, and it most certainly is not a sexual attraction to 17-year-olds. And considering that 19 is included in the teenager realm, it is even more clear to say that pedophilia is not a sexual attraction to late teenagers such as 18 and 19-year-olds, who are perfectly legal adults. References/sources can even be provided that state that pedophilia and ephebophilia should not be confused. Frederick S. Berlin is even one of those sources. It is not our job to state, "Wait, maybe somehow, just somehow these references are leaving another aspect of the definition out, even though all of the references so far specify the same thing." It is our job to simply go by the references. By the references making the distinction, which they do, since neither definition includes the other, we can distingush as well.

I do not know what game you are playing here, but I am done with it.

We have brought our references/sources...and they back up what everyone has stated in opposition to your statements on this matter. Flyer22 (talk) 04:18, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm working like 12-13 hours per day at this time, so I guess I can't keep you from POV-pushing things around here.

So, of course you are right - because I can't tell the difference between someone 17 and 18 years old, a 55 years old buying candies to a 15 years old is perfectly acceptable too. As I can tell the difference between someone 8 and 13, the latter is virtually adult and of course being obsessed by him/her is perfectly natural - we all do it all the time, it's natural really.

/ Raven in Orbit (t | c) 22:08, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if you're trying to call me a pedophile or a ephebophile or not, but if you are, it's extremely laughable. You probably think that I am male as well. Yeah, yeah, I need watching because I'm also practically a child and you are the adult. Whatever. I am a well-respected editor of Wikipedia who actually fights pedophilia-pushers. I haven't come across any ephebophilia-pushers (which the editors I work with on the Pedophilia article would have spotted by now as well), most likely because they don't have to change the article to say that a sexual attraction to teenagers is normal. The world already says that, every time you see the age of conset set at 16 or 17. No one is saying that a sexual attraction to all teenagers, like 13-year-olds, who look no different than 12-year-olds, is normal. It is not POV-pushing when you have damn facts backing you up. It is not POV pushing when you can use your damn brain! I cannot believe anyone would think that they need experts to tell them that a sexual attraction to a 17-year-old is not the same as a sexual attraction to a 7-year-old. And that a sexual attraction to a 17-year-old couldn't possibly be a mental disorder and pedophilia if being sexually attracted to 18-year-old isn't, considering that there is zero physical age difference between the two that one can spot. No one is saying that being sexually attracted to a 15-year-old is perfectly normal, but it certainly isn't pedophilia either (not typically), especially when some 15-year-olds look no physically different age-wise than 18. Meaning, in some cases, a sexual attraction to a 15-year-old is perfectly normal in that sense. Being sexually attracted to a teenager also does not mean that it's normal to go after them to find a date. Most people may have a brief sexual attraction to a teenager, but it does not mean that they would honestly pursue that teenager for sex or for a date, unless that teenager is legal. And even if that teenager is legal, most older adults want a sexual partner and romantic relationship with someone who is not a teenager and where they will not be scrutinized for dating a teenager.

You also seem to associate a 5-year-old being lured off the street by candy from a stranger to a 15-year-old. Well, here's some news: 15-year-olds are not that naive, and think more so along the line of adults than they do children. As for 8 and 13, I almost cannot believe you made that 8 and 13 comment. Of course the latter is not an adult. The point is that both are (usually) significantly physically different. But if you don't already know, a sexual attraction to a 13-year-old can also easily be considered pedophilia by experts, since, as I mentioned before, 13 looks no physically different age-wise than 12 and plenty of 13-year-olds have not hit puberty. A 15-year-old boy who has not hit puberty and looks 11 would be sexually attractive to pedophiles as well. So perhaps that is that "grey zone" you were speaking of. But, generally, no, a sexual attraction to teenagers is not a mental disorder because most of them have been through puberty and can easily pass as legal adults (I'm not speaking of 13 and 14-year-olds, of course). At least you finally demonstrated that you can tell the physical difference between prepubescent children and teenagers. That is the whole point I've been going over and over again with you, which you basically kept ignoring. Again, I ask how can a sexual attraction to a 17-year-old be the same as a sexual attraction to a 7-year-old, when the two are significantly physically different? How can a sexual attraction to a 17-year-old be pedophilia and a sexual attraction to an 18-year-old not be? Your problem is that you kept/keep acting as though pedophilia is based on age of consent, when it is really based on how child-like the person looks. There's a reason normal men, which included celebrities, found Britney Spears sexually attractive even when she was 17. There's a reason that most 17-year-olds can easily lie about their age and say that they are 19. I mean, what then, when you meet a teenager falsely claiming to be an adult? Wouldn't that mean you are a pedophile or suffering from a mental disorder since they are actually 17 and not 19? So what, you were tricked into suffering from a mental disorder for a bit? See how insane that sounds?

I am well-educated on the matter of pedophilia, ephebophilia and many other sexual topics, and do not need you acting as though I am trying to hurt Wikipedia. If anything, I am trying to help Wikipedia and people to get educated, so that a poor bastard who finds a 17-year-old sexually attractive one day does not think that he needs to be locked in the looney bin.

And, by the way, you aren't working any harder than me. It's just that my work allows me significant computer time. Doesn't mean that I'll be on Wikipedia a lot in the future, though. Peace. Flyer22 (talk) 16:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I do say that being sexually attracted to a 15 year old (specifically, a girl) is perfectly normal. Attraction to various childlike attributes (i.e., neoteny) is also very normal, which is why even mainstream porn features "barely legal" girls with lollipops, pigtails, smoothly depilated genitals and the like. Which "experts" say that attraction to a 13 year old girl constitutes pedophilia? Perhaps they are not in the American Psychiatric Association, since it officially defines pedophilia as intense and persistent attraction to prepubescents, and virtually no 13 year old girls are prepubescent. The vast majority are menstruating by that age. Why would a real deviant want a girl who already has breasts and menstrual cycles? Otherwise, you make some good points. SSovereign (talk) 18:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

LOL, SSovereign, I was more so speaking of boys when I said 13-year-olds. 13 is even noted in the Pedophilia article under the Diagnosis heading, though it doesn't specify to being only about boys. If you notice above, I was sure to mention that a 15-year-old boy who has not hit puberty. I can hardly imagine a girl being 15 and not having hit puberty, though that does happen, rarely. Flyer22 (talk) 19:27, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

As for "why would a real deviant want a girl who already has breasts and menstrual cycles?"...if it's a child who has gone through precocious puberty, but still looks like a child, I would say that that is a real deviant. I'm not sure too many normal men would be sexually interested in an 8-year-old girl, no matter having breasts and menstrual cycles. It's one thing to have the same thing as women, but another to otherwise look like a child, despite having the same thing as women. It's not even a matter of the 8-year-old having child-like attributes, but basically still very much looking like a child. Flyer22 (talk) 19:39, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see what you meant. Yes, boys do tend to develop considerably more slowly than girls. To a good extent, I can see your point with regard to the precocious 8 year old girl. But a few years later strong development is not precocious but quite normal. I acknowledge that strong, recurrent attraction to 8 year olds (precocious or not) tends to be the domain of deviants, but I don't see that holding true with regard to girls a few years older. Anyway, our exchange should disabuse Raven of any notion that you are some fanatical pedo or epheb defender... SSovereign (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

style, not content

The discussion above contains some good debating on content issues for this article and those issues do need to be resolved. Certainly, as Flyer22 stated, ephebophilia should not be confused with pedophilia, they are not the same thing and that needs to be clear in the article. But hatnotes are a style tag, not a content issue. According to WP:HAT, hatnotes are for disambiguation, not "see also" usage. According to WP:DISAMBIG, "Disambiguation in Wikipedia is the process of resolving conflicts in article titles that occur when a single term can be associated with more than one topic, making that term likely to be the natural title for more than one article."

"Ephebophilia" and "pedophilia" are not the same word; disambiguation does not apply unless the two topics use the same word. The question of how the different-but-related topics of pedophilia and ephebophilia overlap, or don't overlap, needs to be addressed in the text of the article, not a style-based navigation tag. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 05:34, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The first use of hatnotes is "to provide disambiguation of closely related terms" - they're not the same word, they're not the identical concept, but I'd guess they are close enough that they are mixed in the popular imagination. {{distinguish}} might be a good way of linking the two more explicitly as a hatnote without being more explicit in the text itself (I would venture that hebephilia's lead does the best job of the 3 pages and is something worth repeating on all 3). The terms may not be spelled the same, but the definitions are close enough that I think they should be distinguished. A hatnote is one way, a discussion is another. I may know the difference, all the editors may know the difference, but someone just reading up on it may not and it is for them that the page is written. WLU (talk) 15:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Those are good points, however hatnotes are not a good method in this situation, and not needed. Ephebophilia and Hebephilia are not common terms, there is no wide usage. Most people who see them in Wikipedia will be seeing them for the first time. The terms are not well-defined and are used inconsistently even in the literature because they are recently-introduced terms. They aren't in any of the major dictionaries. There is no possibility of ambiguous searching, so no need for hatnotes. (I agree that a short explanation of the other terms would be appropriate in each article; in the pedophilia article, it should not go in the lead though, that would be a distraction from an already-complex topic).

Maybe there will be consensus for the hatnotes anyway. If so, {{distinguish}} is the only appropriate option because the definitions of these terms are not simple and cannot be summarized in a few words within a hat note. On pedophilia there has been endless arguing about the wording of the article lead, and the definition in particular, for years - not an exaggeration. So if there is a hatnote, stay away from definitions and let the article text handle that. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 16:24, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Great points by you both. Flyer22 (talk) 18:18, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Hm...spam a section to all three just below the lead containing referenced discussion of the distinctions between the three. Ideally reference the best definition of each, and a fourth reference saying that they're not well distinguished, often confused in both popular and scientific literature. Short, called ==Definition== and 6 sentences max:

“ Several terms are used to describe sexual attraction of adults to non-adults. Pedophilia is sexual attraction of an adult towards a child.[3] Ephebophilia is sexual attraction of an adult towards a late adolescent (between 15 and 19 years of age).(Kraft-Ebbing) Hebephilia is a sexual preference for a pubescent child.(Glueck, 1955) The terms are often confused and clear distinctions or specific age ranges have not been agreed upon to define each precicely.(imaginary reference that presumably backs my point) ”

A good imaginary reference would work, but if not then WP:CONSENSUS and WP:IAR may be appropriate (if consensus can be reached). Otherwise, a {{distinguish}} hatnote would be my next preference. Of course, this depends on how good the references I've cribbed from the pages, and the existence of my imaginary reference, are. WLU (talk) 19:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

definition(s)...

Actually, age will never (and probably should never) make a good distinction. Attractions probably follow the physical development of the kid's anatomy (which are rated in tanner stages).
—MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 19:47, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd say any definition the reference(s) use is a good one, but my imaginary definitions use both ages and stages. And they whiten your teeth when you sleep. I mostly dumped it for my opinion and hoped that the more knowledgeable contributors would be able to fill in the blanks for me. Best would probably use tanner first and approximate ages but ultimately we're almost certain to be left culling what we can scrape together from sources. WLU (talk) 01:50, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The article currently states The term ephebophilia (sometimes confused with hebephilia) is the primary or exclusive sexual attraction to persons in late adolescence, ages 15-19. There are several problems with this. First, the qualifier of late adolescence, let alone the specific age range of 15-19, is commonly absent in contemporary medical and psychiatric literature on the subject. Ephebophilia is more typically construed to encompass sexual attraction to pubescents (or adolescents, but note that adolescence physically begins at the onset of puberty) in general rather than 15-19 year olds in particular. In some cases, the definition is more specific but still at odds with the one offered in the current Wiki article. For example, from the Glossary of the Gale Encyclopedia of Mental Disorders (2003) : EPHEBOPHILIA. Sexual desire on the part of an adult for youths in the early stages of puberty, as distinct from prepubertal children. Clearly, youths in the early stages of puberty, especially girls, are considerably younger than 15-19. See Tanner, et al. An editor gave Psychopathia sexualis (1924) by Krafft-Ebing et al. for his or her source for the disputed definition. However, no specific chapter or page number is offered. I do not see anything in that book backing the definition in dispute.

With the above taken into consideration, the sometimes confused with hebephilia bit is also highly questionable. Confused? It is a fact that ephebophilia and hebephilia are often defined and used interchangeably or with considerable overlap. If we want any bit of that nature, stating sometimes confused with pedophilia instead might be more helpful.

This seriously needs an edit, but I'm quite willing to discuss the matter further first. PS: My apologies for putting this on top of the talk page. --SSovereign (talk) 02:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Please see the section immediately above this one - there's already a discussion and we'd welcome new conributions and sources. WLU (talk) 02:28, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, will do. See, e.g., Feierman, J., ”Introduction” and “A Biosocial Overview,” in Feierman, J. (ed.), Pedophilia: Biosocial Dimensions, New York: Springer-Verlag, 1990a, pp. 1-68. Feierman, as is commonly the case, defines ephebophilia as sexual attraction to adolescents in general rather than 15-19 year olds in particular. SSovereign (talk) 02:36, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

You are correct that these terms are often mixed up, i.e., a priest who fondled a 15 year old dubbed as a "pedophile priest." So let me highlight some real distinctions that the definitions must have if they are going to be at all meaningful. If pedophilia is to encompass ephebophilia, then it includes (for example) sexual attraction to 18 to 19 year old girls. In that case, pornography that is legal and mainstream in the U.S. commonly caters to pedophiles, pedophilic behavior is legal there and pedophilic attraction is simply normal. (I would argue that strong attraction to girls well under 18, but still pubescent, is normal. However, I use the example of 18 to 19 year old girls because I doubt many of you will deny that normals are strongly attracted to them.) On the other hand, the American Psychiatric Association defines pedophilia as entailing attraction to prepubescent children. Applied consistently, this would not include attraction to most girls aged 11 to 12 (girls become visibly pubescent in this range) and above as well as most boys aged 12 to 13 and above. This is consistent with definitions of ephebophilia that construe it as including attraction to pubescents/adolescents in general. This also prevents the ridiculous result of pedophilia including utterly normal attractions. SSovereign (talk) 02:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

To expand on my earlier comment that this term is not well-defined: It might be best to combine this article with Hebephilia and indicate that they are recently coined terms with unclear meanings. There are no sources I've been able to find that clarify this, because each source that uses the terms, uses them in their own ways. These words are not in any of the major dictionaries, that's a big hint that they are neologisms. If you Google these terms, you will find a variety of definitions. Whatever we we write about these two terms must be specifically and directly attributed to particular authors, with careful avoidance of generalization, because there is no general usage, therefore defining the terms without attribution would be original research. I could be wrong, that's been known to happen now and then, but that's what this looks like so far. We don't have a range of dependable sources clearly defining them, and searches show contradictory definitions as we have already seen.

By the way, the article used Psychopathia Sexualis as a source for the 15-19 definition, however that book does not include either of the two terms. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 02:56, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

You make some good points. I noted much the same regarding the misleading Psychopathia Sexualis reference. That jumped out at me, too. Added tag. SSovereign (talk) 03:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Welcome, SSovereign. I've always had a problem with pedophilia simply being defined as a sexual attraction to prepubescent children, simply because I feel that it should always state prepubescent and preadolescent, given that an 8-year-old who has just hit puberty will still look 8. A pubertal 8-year-old girl would just be 8 with breasts and other pubertal anatomy. But would not a person intensely sexually attracted to an 8-year-old girl as that still be a pedophile? I mean, as I stated before, that 8-year-old girl would still look like a child, as opposed to most 16-year-old girls. Flyer22 (talk) 04:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. You are correct that an 8 year old who has just hit puberty will still tend to look like a prepubescent. At the very beginning of puberty, there are scarcely any outward signs. I am not arguing that intense attraction to 8 year olds is typically non-pedophilic. However, by age 11-12 in girls puberty has typically progressed such that it is quite visible, e.g., breast budding and pubic hair. Research indicates that by 13-14, most girls have acquired waist-to-hip ratios (WHRs) favored by normal adults.[4] By this age range they have typically hit menses and attained significant breast, areola and genital growth. There is research indicating that by before age 14, a girl has commonly already attained breast development to peak natural size (excluding extra growth related to pregnancy and the like). When it comes to pure sexual attractiveness, what do legally adult women have that these girls lack? Does it really make sense to lump attraction to a 13 year old girl (or even necessarily an 11-12 year old, considering the facts of visible pubertal development) with attraction to a 5 year old girl as both pedophilia? Not if you want the usage of pedophilia to hold up to empirical scrutiny. SSovereign (talk) 05:00, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

You make some points similar to the ones I was making above to Raven in Orbit about how the sexual attraction to prepubescent children could not possibly be the same as the sexual attraction to teenagers.

Anyway, I just added a reference to the definition of ephebophilia to the lead, the source being Frederick S. Berlin. The problem is that he does not say "primary or exclusive sexual attraction to adolescents", and we all know that that is what the definition in this article should say. Why? Because if ephebophilia was simply the sexual attraction to adolescents, that would make most people ephebophiles. I mean, because really, what is the difference between being sexually attracted to a 17-year-old as opposed to an 18-year-old? Nothing, of course. It's just that 18 is more likely to be legal in reference to sexual intimacy. Not to mention, 18 is a legal adult.

If you find a valid reference to more accurately define the definition of ephebophilia in the lead, hurry up and add it, of course. Flyer22 (talk) 17:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I read through all of Talk:Ephebophilia. You did make some good points up the page. I will not hurry and hastily replace the definition and reference you added. What I might do in the future is cite some defs and refs here in Talk that might be better overall. Then we will see where it goes from there. Later on I will also take a closer look at the hebephilia page. I agree with your observation about Berlin's definition making most people ephebophiles. Contra some of the arguments that pit epheb vs. hebe, I think your observation would still hold should ephebophilia include lust for e.g. girls in Tanner 2-3 as well as 4-5. I do not buy the figurative wall between the two that some others do, while the wall between both and DSM-IV pedophilia does ring true. However, should I address such matters in any articles here I will be sure to discuss such in Talk first and cite multiple established and reliable sources. SSovereign (talk) 00:09, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

In case it's helpful, people with characteristics at Tanner 2-3 are typically around 11-12 (boys a little older). Seventeen-year-olds are typically at Tanner 5 already.

—MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 14:16, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

For girls, an adolescent therapist offers average ranges of 11-12 for 2, 12-13 for 3 and 13-14 for 4. 15 year olds are usually already in 5.[5] SSovereign (talk) 16:09, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Psychopathia Sexualis is, in fact, the correct source, but I suspect you might be looking at the wrong edition. That book came through multiple versions, as was common in those days. The version of Psychopathia Sexualis that was co-authored with Moll contains the term; it does not appear in the prior 1886 version, however.
—MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 18:08, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I would advise against merging this article with hebephilia. The existing research on hebephilia is (in my opinion) comparatively specific in its scope and focused on identifying what the biological basis of hebephilia is (hebephilia usually being studied together with pedophilia). Sources regarding ephebophilia are typically cultural or anthropological in nature, however. I think combining the WP pages would produce confusion about which statements apply to which descriptor.
—MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 18:18, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree, Marion. Hebephilia has more to do with a primary sexual attraction to adolescents who have just hit puberty than adolescents who are well into or over puberty. Flyer22 (talk) 18:31, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I have changed the reference in the lead to one that includes the (typical) ages of interest to ephebophiles. The source is in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, which is a very RS. Because I am myself one of the authors of that article, however, I thought it appropriate to notify folks here.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 19:00, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Does that source specify that ephebophilia is the primary or exlcusive sexual preference for adolescents? I mean, without a source stating that, that definition and this article is leaving readers (the ones not educated on the matter) with the distinct impression that most adults are ephebophiles, considering that most people are easily sexually attracted to legal adults such as 18 and 19-year-olds. And while some 15-year-olds look no physically different age-wise than older adolescents, enough of them do that it can be argued that more adults are not sexually attracted to 15-year-olds than are. We know that ephebophilia is the exclusive or primary sexual preference for adolescents. Not hurrying to add that into this article, I feel is doing more harm than good. Without specifying, it's like, "What is the point of having an article on ephebophilia when there's nothing that distinct about legal adults being sexually attracted to mid to late teenagers?" It's almost like having an article specifically (though we kind of have articles about that) about adults being sexually attracted to adults, considering that there is nothing distinct about that. Flyer22 (talk) 18:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Not that I'm saying Wikipedia articles should be so "distinct" to be included on Wikipedia. But, still... The way that lead is right now is very misleading and a little funny. It's like saying, "Yep, ephebophilia is the sexual attraction to even 19-year-olds... 'Cause, you know, 19-year-olds look so much different than 20-year-olds." Or "Hey, even late teenagers are included. So, basically, everyone is a ephebophile. Yep."

I really have to change that now, to sexual preference. I will not add "primary or exclusive". But ephebophilia is certainly the sexual preference for mid to late adolescents. Just saying "attraction" really does not separate it from typical human sexual attraction. Flyer22 (talk) 18:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I think your change improves the lead.

— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 22:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Flyer, the majority of 15 year old girls have already hit Tanner 5 -- that's full breast development, full labial development, etc. With many studies finding that most girls hit stage 5 even before age 14[6], I would dispute the notion that more adults are not sexually attracted to 15 year olds than are. At least, if we're talking about 15 year old girls. And that's talking about Stage 5. Considering that Stage 4 girls (average age ~13) are near the summit of puberty and their breasts tend to be well-developed[7], can we even say that most adults do not find them attractive? Even highly attractive? Just because they might look somewhat "childlike" does not refute this attraction - e.g., hairless and smooth skin is "childlike," yet the preference for smooth bodies is quite normal. Of course, some will find it disturbing that most may well be strongly attracted to early teen girls - this doesn't make it false, though. SSovereign (talk) 03:06, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we are talking about teenage girls again. And I am aware of what you stated about breasts and body hair. But I am not sure that I would say that most heterosexual men (and lesbians, to be fair) find early teenage girls sexually attractive. While these girls may have well-developed breasts, they still look very child-like. This is not the same as an adult woman who shaves her pubic area which then resembles a time at which she was prepubescent; she still looks like an adult -- a shaved adult. 15-year-old girls? Yes, I stated that some 15-year-old girls look no different age-wise than 18-year-old ones. 15-year-olds are mid-adolescents, though I suppose some people would call them early teenagers. I can understand an adult finding a 15-year-old sexually attractive who looks no different age-wise than 18-year-olds he or she normally finds sexually attractive, more so than I can understand an adult finding a 13-year-old sexually attractive. I have never seen a 13-year-old who looks no different age-wise than an 18-year-old. If I did, then I am sure that that 13-year-old could easily pull off being age 21, considering that most 18-year-olds can easily pull off being age 21. And I am not saying that an adult being sexually attracted to a person just a little below 18 is abnormal, of course not (I even argued that point sections above, and I would definitely argue that heterosexual men and lesbians generally find 16-year-olds sexually attractive), but 13 is pushing it to me. For example, when I was in high school, the freshman girls (13 and 14 year-olds) who were, of course, a tad older than 13-year-old girls, even looked like babies compared to us 17 and 18-year-olds girls (usually).

That said, yes, some 17 and 18-year-old guys at my high school had no problem dating and having sex with the 14 and 15-year-old freshman girls (I mean, 15 is not a stretch from their ages), with the exception of fear of statutory rape charges in regards to the 18-year-old men, but I am sure that those guys flocked to those girls due to the fact that some of those girls had breasts (had hit or been through puberty) like us older girls, some looked no different age-wise than us older girls, and because they were more gullible/easier to get into bed than us older girls. But in reverse? Hardly any of the older teenage girls were interested in dating or having sex with the younger teenage boys; younger teenage boys truly do look like babies, even more so than younger teenage girls. No doubt that that has not changed with the current teenage generation.

You have a point about 15-year-olds (after all, I have argued that an adult having a sexual attraction to 16-year-olds is not abnormal, and I have seen plenty of normal men sexually attracted to 16-year-olds; when I was 16, for instance, I didn't look any different age-wise than my 20-year-old female friend), but human sexual attraction also takes in other elements than just looks, and I am willing to bet that due to knowing that a girl is age 15, how 16 is more legal than 15, plus the fact that some 15-year-olds can actually look noticeably younger than even a 16-year-old due to growth spurts and such, more men are prone not to be sexually attracted to 15-year-olds than are. If these men were to randomly see a 15-year-old girl naked, then, yes, I feel that there would be some sexual attraction (as long as the girl is not related to them, though some perverts might even feel something then), uncomfortable sexual attraction that they would try and most likely want to deny, but I don't believe that these men would or do have a typical sexual attraction 15-year-olds.

I do believe that most adults generally find mid-to-late teenagers sexually attractive, just not in a usual way if it's a mid teenager or younger teen. Flyer22 (talk) 23:40, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with much of what you say here and much of the article as currently stands. (Apologies for not getting back to this sooner.) Basically, you seem to be arguing that attraction to 16 year olds is normal because some of them look no different from 20 year olds. But if that is what ephebophilia refers to, it is a rather meaningless term, no? A sexual preference for youths who look no different from adults? Huh? This is among the (excellent) reasons to dispute the ostensible definition currently posted in the article. I disagree with many other assertions made in the article and throughout this talk page. However, I do not feel ready at this point to propose major changes in specific. Perhaps I will do so when I have accumulated and digested a good deal more research from a variety of sources. SSovereign (talk) 16:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I did not exactly say that ephebophilia is a sexual preference for youths who look no different from adults. But tell me exactly how is it not that? Mid teenagers (and I'm speaking more so of girls) only look somewhat different age-wise from legal adults, when we are talking about late teenagers and early 20-somethings. Late teenagers (and I'm talking about guys and girls) often look no different age-wise from legal adults, especially since some are legal adults. Unless we are talking about early teenagers, I really do not see your point. In the case of mid teenagers, that somewhat difference is what draws ephebophiles in. And in this case, they are not only attracted to the look of the individual but also the knowledge of that individual's age. I really do not see why you disagree, when you yourself have pointed out what does a 20-year-old have that a 16-year-old does not have, physically (though some, the keyword being some, 16-year-olds look younger than 20-year-olds). Does that not also make ephebophilia a rather meaningless term? I often do wonder why a ephebophile would want a 17-year-old when he (or she) can easily find a 20-year-old who looks no older than a 17-year-old. In all reality, I feel that it is a matter of ephebophiles being hung up on wanting sexual partners that young. It is hardly any different than if we had a term to describe a sexual preference for early 20-somethings. Ephebophilia kind of seems to be a meaningless term to most researchers. They really do not see anything so drastic about it that it needs to be studied as deeply as pedophilia is. As for disputing "the ostensible definition currently posted in the article"...you'll have to take that up with James Cantor. You mentioned before that you do not see ephebophilia as that different from the sexual preference to very young teenagers. If we were talking about the sexual preferece to very young teenagers, then I would see your point in how ephebophilia is a sexual preference distinct enough from having a sexual preference to early 20-somethings. Flyer22 (talk) 04:52, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

By the way, Legitimus added information to the lead which states that ephebophilia can sometimes be diagnosed as a disorder. Unsatisfied with that addition, since the lead also stated perfectly normal age ranges in which adults find sexually attractive (17, 18, 19-year-old people), I stated this on his talk page:

"Hey, Legitimus, does the second reference you provided for that new addition state ages? I'm having a difficult time believing that experts would consider a sexual preference for late teenagers, such as 17, 18, and 19-year-olds a disorder. People are confused enough on this subject. Hebephilia should be stated as sometimes being diagnosed as a disorder before ephebophilia is. We do not state Transsexualism as a disorder in the lead (it mentions diagnosis but not disorder), even though transsexualism is listed as a disorder. Well, as we know, ephebophilia is not truly listed as a disorder. I do not see what good can come out of stating that "ephebophilia can sometimes be diagnosed as a disorder"... I mean, forgive my being passionate about this, but I have dealt with enough misinformed people (not you, of course) on the subject of what pedophilia is and ephebophilia is, such as parents actually having the nerve to call a 20-year-old a pedophile just because that 20-year-old was dating their 17-year-old daughter. Or people feeling that a 30-something year old man is pedophi-lish or "sick in the head" for dating a 19-year-old. I mean, tell that to Hugh Hefner.

I feel that the lead needs to be worded in a way that it does not leave people with the sense that ephebophilia is truly a disorder. Right now, I am going to tweak the lead away from stating the specific ages (15-19) and rather to simply state mid to late adolescents solely; it leaves people with more freedom to determine what they consider late adolescents without saying, "Hey, a sexual preference for 19-year-olds could be considered a disorder."

So, yeah, once again the lead does not state specific ages. Flyer22 (talk) 21:36, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

It's quite alright. It didn't turn out how I would have liked anyway. The article's short length made it a harder to give this aspect balanced weight, and I was intending ask for commentary but got sidetracked. The second ref I added, while seemingly unrelated, is actually an example where ephebophilia is specifically diagnosed as a disorder under ICD for a specific subject. My point, in short, is its possible and happens but not usually so. So that part of that can be moved to where it would be more appropriate.

Funny you mention examples of older men dating young-but-fully-mature adults. In treatment settings, we sometimes tongue-in-cheek call this "Rake NOS." (showing my age a bit with that) Joking aside, there are issues with some of those pairings, but it's not in the realm of mental disorders or any paraphilic impulse.Legitimus (talk) 03:47, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

LOL. Thanks, Legitimus. You know how I get about this topic. Legal adults aside, it certainly ticked me off when that 17-year-old boy (it was all over the news; don't know if you saw it) got sentenced to 10 years for having sex with a 15-year-old girl (though he later got help from people, a lawyer included, who rallied to his side). I do not like 17-year-olds being treated like pedophiles and as if they have a mental disorder (unless they actually are/do), in the same way that I do not like 20-year-olds or even older adults being treated like pedophiles and as if they have a mental disorder for dating/being sexually attracted to late teenagers (unless they actually are/do).

That said, I cannot stand adults (even 19-year-olds) going after very young teenagers, like 13-year-olds. Sexual attraction to 13-year-olds and 14-year-olds, even if the 13-year-old or 14-year-old is a girl (seeing as girls are physically more mature than boys) creeps me out and I understand very much when people call that pedophilia; 13-year-olds hardly look any physically different age-wise than 12-year-olds. Flyer22 (talk) 18:24, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes, I believe that was Wilson v. State of Georgia. In truth, a legislative screw up more than anything, as even the judge and jury did not want to convict, but were bound by the rules of the court. They rewrote the law immediately, and the Supreme court had to strike his conviction as cruel due to Georgia not having a pardon system.

I hear you on that last part (19 with 13). There's certainly something going on with the older guy in that case. At the very least a loser who can't get someone his own age.Legitimus (talk) 13:27, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

LOL. Too true. And thanks for the additional information. Flyer22 (talk) 16:33, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the comments by Raven in Orbit that led to this. Move on. We WILL be civil here. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:23, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing pathological about being attracted to adult-looking teenagers/young people, as well as adults, but ephebophiles tend to go in the opposite direction. Look at Barely Legal porn, with its underdeveloped young women, the kiddie accessories like teddy bears. Most ephebophiles I've experienced were not attracted to teenagers with a mature physical appearance, but those with paedomorphic features. And actually, I'd disagree that ephebophilia is totally different to paedophilia, because like paedophiles, more predatory ephebophiles get off on power and the victim's inexperience. And when the boy/girl ceases to be of the desired age, the ephebophile will toss him/her aside and move onto the next one. Also, some paedophiles can often be attracted to childlike 18-year-olds, while ephebophiles can be attracted to developed 12-year-olds. But it's all about age. When someone is merely attracted by someone's age, it's a paraphilia.Chocopocky (talk) 21:15, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Hello, Chocopocky. Welcome. I have to state, though, that it is not all about age; it is about the looks; even your comment makes that clear. And I must also state that I have never come across an 18-year-old who looks like a child in the prepubescent sense or early pubescent sense. An 18-year-old being child-like is, of course, not the same thing as looking similar to a prepubescent or early pubescent child. And the only type of 12-year-old capable of achieving an adult look, as in more than just body but also the face, is a girl. Because boys certainly cannot; if there has been a 12-year-old boy who has achieved this, it is extremely rare. But even most 12-year-old girls cannot be mistaken for a mature adult; most of them cannot even pass for age 16. Flyer22 (talk) 05:15, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Hello and thank you. Flyer22, I have heard personally from hebephiles and even paedophiles the following: that they would love to go out with a young-looking 18-year-old as a way of getting around the current legal restrictions of dating any younger. 18 is the closest age to legal childhood remember. Some 18-year-olds have paedomorphic features... I'm 19 and have passed for 14 amongst officials even. While I'll agree that it's rare for a late teen to look 12, it can happen, and paedophiliac attractions can sometimes extend even to late teens (I read it in some psychological study, the % attracted is low however). Some 12-year-olds develop early, uncommon as it is; developed African and Hispanic girls for example could pass for 16 at very most. I have been courted by many ephebophiles in the past, and let me tell you the first thing they ask is my age. They are predominantly attracted by age and the young person's body, they don't even have to be that good-looking facially. Chocopocky (talk) 21:08, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining your thoughts. I would still disagree that any true pedophile would love to date a young-looking 18-year-old unless that 18-year-old somehow does not have adult features, but pedophiles often state things that are a bit "off" in order to seem more normal anyway. I do not doubt that a hebephile would love to date a young-looking 18-year-old, though, mainly since adult features (such as breasts and pubic hair) do not turn them "off" as long as the person does not look too adult. I will agree that age is part of the attraction for some (of course pedophiles, hebephiles and ephebophiles look for a specific age range), but it is always more about how young the person looks.

On a side note, given your age, it is good to see someone so young studying these matters. As I once stated on the Pedophilia talk page and below on this talk page, I started studying these matters at age 16. I wish that more people were educated about all this. Flyer22 (talk) 03:03, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

This is true, it could be possible that the pedophiles were talking nonsense. Well I don't think pedophiles are attracted to 18-year-olds, as they're too "old"... they might find some of their pedomorphic features appealing (eg. Ellen Page looked about 12/13 in the movie Hard Candy though she was an adult), but they'd only want to date them in order to get lower down the age groups, or even use the 18-year-old as "bait" to lure younger people (Gary Glitter?). Pedophiles are known to date either frumpy, sexless women or very young, weaker girls just into adulthood. I agree with the looking younger aspect. I was surprised to discover that a lot of hebephiles are attracted to Jessica Alba for some reason, and she's, what in her late 20s? Though I'm not sure whether a hebephile/ephebophile would turn down a mature-looking, perhaps obese 14-year-old. It could depend on the individual. Some are stimulated by appearance, others get off on the subject's emotional immaturity.

Thanks, and yes people are quite uneducated when it comes to this matter. You could say I got into this accident, after being targeted by many a hebephile/ephebophile in my lifetime, and the mindset of these people began to "fascinate" me somewhat.Chocopocky (talk) 12:17, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I just found out about the film Hard Candy last night while watching Bravo's list of 13 Scarier Movies. A lot of hebephiles are sexually attracted to Jessica Alba as she is in her late 20s, you say? Where did you read or hear about this? If they are, I suppose it is not that odd, since the ones after clearly pubescent girls are somewhat sexually attracted to adult features. Flyer22 (talk) 20:53, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I found a bunch of hebephiles/ephebophiles discussing it amongst themselves on a forum a while back, and the topic was something like "who do you prefer, Jessica Alba or Miley Cyrus" or some other underage teen star. What I found odd was that they were comparing child stars to a fully-grown woman. I just thought there must be something about Alba that ticks their boxes somehow, as opposed to other female stars like Angelina Jolie or Pamela Anderson etc. Maybe it's her "innocent" looksChocopocky (talk) 10:40, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, by age 16, most girls have completed puberty. I would find it more odd if these men (I assume they are men) were comparing 12 and 13-year-olds to Jessica Alba. If they were, then, yep, odd. But it is odd either way in the case of the hebephiles, because, as you say, they are lusting after Jessica Alba. But then again, it is not too odd...because hebephiles after clear pubescent females are obviously somewhat attracted to adult features. I can understand the ephebophiles being sexually attracted to Jessica Alba more so...because Alba could still pass for a late teenager even now...just like she did in Sin City in 2005 at age 24 and because ephebophiles are more clearly sexually attracted to adult features; we know how late teenagers and early 20-somethings are indistinguishable age-wise. Are you even sure this was a group of hebephiles/ephebophiles? Maybe they are just "dirty old men" who are somehow not ashamed to admit their lust for underage pubescent or post-pubescent girls. However, if some of these men were openly admitting their lust for 12, 13 or 14-year-old girls or, jeez, younger than that, then I can see how you are certain that they are hebephiles (hebephiles of some sort anyway).

On another note, you and I have kind of been carrying on in this discussion as if it is a forum. I have to remind both of us about WP:FORUM (though since you are new here, it is more of an introduction to that for you). If you reply this time, it is best that we move on from this talk after that. Flyer22 (talk) 23:40, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes it was definitely hebephiles, and they often made scathing remarks about female adult features, like thick thighs and anything too ripe for their liking. I think you could be right about the "dirty old men" thing... it could be that they enjoy all young females, from 12 to 25, and that the younger the girl the more "forbidden" and therefore exciting she is. Well... from my experience I think it could be correct.

Oh sure, yeah we should probably move this to talk from here on.Chocopocky (talk) 13:23, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

One more question: Given the age range, you mean hebephiles and ephebophiles, right? Also, I would hate to think that "dirty old men" in general fantasize sexually about being with any girl as young as 12 years old (forbidden or not). Flyer22 (talk) 22:48, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Generally yes, as girls between those ages are considered young and fresh for the picking, crude as it sounds, but this phenomena even exists in the fashion industry. I think it depends on the "dirty old man" and how dirty he is exactly, but as I said, from my experience, considerably older men who lust after girls in their mid teens-early 20s do tend to merely fantasize about even younger girls... most would never act on it though. But yes it's not a nice thought. I'd give you an example but it's not suitable for here lol. Chocopocky (talk) 10:47, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, for the record, I hope the considerably old man Hugh Hefner (a man I bring up often on this matter when making my points about significantly older people being sexually attracted to late teenagers, which is often in his case) does not sexually fantasize about girls as young as age 12. In my opinion, any man sexually fantasizing about girls as young as age 12 has a sexual problem (no matter it not being labeled a mental disorder as long as she is clearly pubescent and it is not an obsession for him); unless the girl looks mature enough facial-wise, I consider that a sexual problem for the one doing the fantasizing. I would mention women finding 12-year-old boys sexually attractive, as in the case of Mary Kay Letourneau, but that is a given since 12-year-old boys typically do not look pubescent and there are more of them who have not yet hit puberty than girls their age.

Anyway, you can continue talk at my talk page if you have much more to say on this topic; we are allowed to use our own talk pages for discussions which stray from helping articles or are not about helping articles at all, which, judging by your previous comment suggesting we move this to talk, it seems you are already aware of. Flyer22 (talk) 05:31, 21 October 2009 (UTC)