Talk:English longbow/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Reference style

Could an editor of a technical bent have a look at the referencing of this article? We seem to use a mixture of styles - full citation in the reference and a reference list. Ideally, we should use one style - I would go for the reference list.Monstrelet (talk) 17:54, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Potencial & Kinetic energy.

Lots of talk, little science. This article written by movie teatrics to make promote cheap cellphone wargames with no future. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.93.180.36 (talk) 00:40, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia copied and published with claim of copyright?

Looking for a source to provide a citation for the quoted passage "Whereas the people of our realm, ... and so learn and practise archery.", in section 2.1 "Use and Performance", "Training", I found this entire section of the Wikipedia article is a identical to a subsection from the book, "Tools of War: History of Weapons in Medieval Times", by Syed Ramsey, published 30 May 2016 <https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tools-War-History-Weapons-Medieval-ebook/dp/9386101661/ref=sr_1_1> (kindle edition 12 May; there is also a hardback edition, but I have not found its publication date). Reading further, I found that the entire Wikipedia article is substantially the same as the English Longbow section from the book, with a few additional paragraphs, a few omitted, some paragraphs conjoined or split and a few other word substitutions, together with identical section headings throughout.

Initially I thought that the whole article had been copied from the book without attribution, but delving deeper I found that the Wikipedia article had its origins in 2004 and had reached substantially its current form by the end of 2012, with much of the current material in place by 2008.

It seems likely therefore that Ramsey has used the Wikipedia article at least more or less verbatim as it stood some time about the end of 2015/beginning of 2016 as his section on the English Longbow.

I don't have access to the whole book, so I don't know if Ramsey has made acknowledgement of the source for his material - I can't see any in the kindle preview - or if he is one of (or even one of the main) contributors to the Wikipedia article and has a right to use it. I haven't seen a name among the editors that might indicate this, but he may well have a Wikipedia username dissimilar to his own; also the history of the article is many pages and I have not searched thoroughly though them all.

"Tools of War" appears to be a series of four books written by Ramsey <http://www.vijbooks.com/AuthorBooks/445/Syed-Ramsey> published under "Alpha Editions", (alphaedis@gmail.com) an imprint of Vij Books <http://www.vijbooks.com/Imprints/3/Alpha%20Editions>. Examining the ISBNs (978-93-8610166-2, 978-93-86-01981-3) this appears to be an Indian publisher (-93-).

In the kindle edition of the book, <https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tools-War-History-Weapons-Medieval-ebook/dp/9386101661/ref=sr_1_1>, the reverse/following page of the title page contains a standard copyright claim and notice, "All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced, distributed or transmitted in any form or by any means, including photocopying, recording or other electronic or mechanical methods, without the prior written permission of the publisher."

What is Wikipedia's policy on use of its material? Does it claim copyright? Or is Wikipedia material entirely open to be copied and published elsewhere with claim of copyright on the material? What if (one of the) the main Wikipedia editors/contributors uses the material? Is Ramsey one of the editors of Wikipedia's English Longbow article? Has he made any attribution of the Wikipedia material in his book? Did he correspond with Wikipedia and obtain permission to use the material in his book? Hedles (talk) 20:23, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

70 yards in seven seconds?

"In tests against a moving target simulating a charging knight[34] it took some approximately seven seconds to draw, aim and loose an armour-piercing heavy arrow using a replica war bow, that in the seven seconds between the first and second shots the target advanced 70 yards..."

I can't access the source; if someone can will they double check this? Do they mean charges on horseback? Because 10 yds/second is implausible outside of that. 70 yards = ~64 meters. The world record 50 meter dash is 5.56 seconds. The world record holder, not wearing armor, would not make that time. --Eleutheria Sleuth (talk) 14:51, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

It seems to be a plausible speed for a galloping horse, though that isn't the sort of speed that a real charge would be likely to produce on a real battlefield. I've changed "charging" to "galloping" accordingly. Richard Keatinge (talk) 16:27, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

According to Rogers in his study of battle, 1924 British cavalry gallop speed was 440 yds per minute. So this knight is travelling very fast in the context of a cavalry charge.Monstrelet (talk) 22:29, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

I shoot an arrow... not

The use of the term shot or shoot is completely incorrect in this article on Longbows. The term for a target is a Mark and you Loose (German "lose" meaning Free). To shoot is a gunpowder term and is frowned upon in Archery. Nock, Draw, Mark, Lose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.112.140.132 (talk) 21:52, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

It was good enough for Roger Ascham and should be good enough for us. "Fire" on the other hand is inappropriate here, except for fire-arrows. Richard Keatinge (talk) 09:02, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Agreed, shoot and shot correctly refer to arrows and did in Old English (sceotan) [1]. DIY Editor (talk) 20:23, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified

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use SI base units please

Not only a bunch of non-SI base units are used in this article (lbs and other gibberish), the main text is also an unreadable mishmash of units. Please use SI base units consistently throughout the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adriaancampo (talk • contribs) 11:47, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

The relevant wiki guidelines say

"the primary units chosen will be SI units, non-SI units officially accepted for use with the SI, or such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic (such as revolutions per minute (rpm) for rotational speed, hands for heights of horses, et cetera)."

Given that discussions in reliable sources about longbows invariably discuss the poundage of bows, even when using SI units for dimensions, velocity and energy, the article correctly follows wiki guidance. Monstrelet (talk) 11:05, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Cummins article on Henry V arrow surgery

As a consequence of recent edits in the arrow wound section, I found myself checking the reference to the Jo Cummins articles. It is very convoluted, giving two different routes to the article, one of which doesn't work. Yet the article is available here directly http://www.historyofdentistry.group/index_htm_files/2006Nov3.pdf Is there any reason for this mess, or is it a result of an update bot crawl by? Monstrelet (talk) 11:11, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

"Start with his grandfather"?

I would love to see a mention of the notion “If you want to train a longbowman, start with his grandfather” (attributed to Edward III, possibly legendary) and some words on how true this generalization is and where the quotation stems from. SpectrumDT (talk) 12:22, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

A tall bow for archery

Our lead says a longbow is a "tall bow for archery". Since archery is the skill or sport of shooting arrows from a bow, I don't see that this definition adds anything to our knowledge. Why do we have it? DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:16, 14 March 2022 (UTC)