Talk:Emma Raducanu/Archive 3

New Photo?

Could someone change the 2018 photo to a more recent photo? Surely there is a better Creative Commons photo available from 2021 Wimbledon or the US Open?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.145.97.37 (talk)

So far, there are only a couple newer ones, but I feel the current one is still better. ASUKITE 14:22, 12 September 2021 (UTC)C)

The newer photos are better. It reflects more on her achievements. Quinlighting (talk) 17:58, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Instead of a practice photo, maybe a tournament photo? Like one of her at the US open of Transylvania Open in a kit. Quinlighting (talk) 22:04, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Can we change the photo of her at the US open? Quinlighting (talk) 16:51, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

You would need to have a non-copyrighted photo like the current one with creative commons attribution to use it on wiki. If you find a photo from the USO someone is allowing use like that and not copyrighting then it can be changed.350z33 (talk) 12:33, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

She was born in Canada. She is a Canadian citizen and has a Canadian passport. She emigrated to Britain as a child. If it had been the other way around, she would be described as "British-Canadian" or at least "British-born Canadian". She is not merely British. I do not understand why this is causing disagreement. 96.53.92.218 (talk) 19:47, 22 December 2021 (UTC)KC

Emma Raducanu

We need to add her parents names Ion and Renee. The Lawn Tennis Association (LTA) lists her parents names as "Ion" and "Renee" [1]. We should also add that both of her parents work in finance. [2][3][4] 2a02:2f08:4dff:ffff::50f:6df1 (talk) 20:15, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

See all the talk above. As long as it's controversial it should not be added. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:25, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I found this from Wimbledon. Emma Raducanu, in her own words: "My dad's name is Ian and my mom's name is Renee". So let's change it. 2a02:2f08:4dff:ffff::50f:6df1 (talk) 20:50, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

That's a huge find! In her own words her dad's name is Ian. Excellent job. We should change it unless someone is going to argue she doesn't know her father's name. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:24, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

I provided that source in transcript form almost a week ago, see my comment towards the end of this section. The "Ion" people didn't bat an eye, and kept on arguing and edit-warring. This is why we can't have nice things. More to the point, again please note that reliable secondary sources -- which are the Wikipedia standard -- pretty consistently use "Ian". 109.255.211.6 (talk) 22:28, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

But a transcript could have been transcribed incorrectly. This is her own mouth. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:14, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

That way lies madness. We can't ignore reliable secondary sources while we tilt at windmills looking for primary ones. While I entirely agree with the restoration of the name, this isn't the way to source it, and many more suitable sources have been provided -- and indeed deleted from the article. Please restore those too. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 00:23, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

You don't need that many sources... one or two will do, but this one from her own mouth is the best by far so it needs to stay. In fact, one more secondary source is already at the end on the sentence so we really don't need any more. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:34, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm afraid it really isn't. Policy on that is pretty clear -- "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources". We've just had section of section of arguments from people disputing this in favour of their opinion as to what would be some better policy, so pretty please let's not rehash it yet again. Indeed, basic logic on that is pretty clear too, as if that's the only source we give, we're effectively doing our own OR transcription of a name that has two about equally common spellings. Older revisions gave at least three different reliable secondary sources, so this is merely a matter of reversing that degradation of quality in sourcing. Whether or not you add this one I'm fairly indifferent about, but the additional ones are pretty essential. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 02:22, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Check the page now. Radinski (talk) 02:35, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm afraid it really is. The best sources are secondary sources. That doesn't mean we ban all other sources. Policy is also very clear on that. We use a persons own handwriting as a source for how they spell their names in countless articles. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:23, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Own words, not quite handwritten. For what it's worth, The Times and BBC (both considered RS) give his father's name as Ian [5][6]. Romanian sources say her father's name is Ion Cătălin Răducanu [7], although there are also sources that say Catlin Ion Raducanu. It's not unusual for people to Anglicise their names when in Anglophone countries, so there is really no controversy. It's only because someone wanted to be hypercorrect insisting on using native name, and claiming that the name Ian is wrong based on their own reasoning (therefore the claim that Ian is wrong is OR). Her mother's name in Chinese appears to be Zhai Dongmei (翟冬梅 [8]), but somehow got mangled to Meizhai Dong when someone wrote it in an earlier edit, which shows the problem when trying to give original name. (Some sources also say Dongmei Zhao, a completely different surname, which again shows the problem trying to give non-English names). Hzh (talk) 15:36, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

It's not a matter of "banning" other sources, it's a matter of using the best ones available. Which for for reason we're still not doing. (If I had to, I'd speculate as a hangover from the supposed controversy in which all the reliable sources were alleged to be wrong, but primary ones reluctantly pacified editors with this view.) Clearly we should switch to the BBC or the Times source, or one of the many available high-quality ones. Oh, only just noticed the article's not semi-protected any more but having written this comment, I'll wait a short while before making the edit myself. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 20:24, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Career Statistics

Under the career statistics section there are two chart sections, the four major tournaments (grand slams) on top and then below that presumably those plus the main-draw WTA and other standalone as mentioned earlier in the section. In the bottom chart with totals it has 4 tournaments played in 2021, but overall win-loss being 10-3. Why are only the wins from the slams in there, but the losses include the non-slam events (I'm assuming 2021 Nottingham Open and 2021 Chicago Challenger)? She didn't win a match at Nottingham and lost in R1 so that I understand, but she won 5 matches in Chicago before losing the 6th match in the finals. Shouldn't those 5 wins count in that box for 2021 so it should be 15-3 for 2021? 0 wins Nottingham, 5 wins Chicago Challenger, 3 wins Wimbledon, 7 wins US Open. Right? Or am I missing something? 350z33 (talk) 18:01, 21 September 2021 (UTC) Edit: Just realized WTA 125 is not included in that so wouldn't count. She did apparently play a WTA 500 and lost first round so stats line up with that. My mistake. 350z33 (talk) 18:09, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Playing style section

We have to be a bit careful how we write the playing style section. I did my best to shorten it up and keep sourcible material, but we can't keep flowery adjectives and repetitive words like aggressive. She's a hot topic in the press right now, and rightfully so, but that doesn't mean we write things word for word. Another issue is that under playing style, her career is written like it's been happening for ten year. It was written "She typically neutralises strong first serves by returning the ball hard, close to the baseline, and down the middle, cutting off her opponent's angle, and she punishes short second serves." We don't know if this is always or will always be the case. She's played four tournaments only on the WTA tour. Four! Two awful first round losses where her playing style would need to be rewritten. A 4th round Wimbledon loss where she had mental issues. And a sensational US Open win. The WTA is littered with the corpses of players that did well for a season and then disappeared. We have to be careful in how we word this and not make it sound like Raducanu is a 10 year tour veteran. Even now her playing style sounds like she's Helen Wills, Serena Williams, and Steffi Graf, all rolled up into one. And that's after I toned it down. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:18, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree with your main point, but describing Raducanu's losses to Harriet Dart and Shuai Zhang as "awful" is a bit hyperbolic. Both players were ranked over 100 places higher than Raducanu when she lost to them. Furthermore, Raducanu had breathing difficulties in her 4th round Wimbledon match due to a lack of match fitness, not due to "mental issues".

In an interview on Thursday, Raducanu said that what ailed her was physical — simple exhaustion brought on by a series of long rallies against a mature opponent — not what most assumed was a panic attack from the pressure of a more intense spotlight than anything she could have anticipated.

"I was playing at such a high level for so many days and I wasn't used to it," Raducanu said after her second round win over Zhang Shuai of China. "We had some 20-shot rallies and I could not control my breathing. The doctors advised me not to continue. I hated retiring."

2001:DF0:A280:1001:0:0:3:1 (talk) 11:24, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Actually those breathing issues were caused by nerves/mental issues per her dad. Obviously she overcame that. But the point is we could say she is out of shape in a quarter of her tournaments or the mental pressures get to her in a quarter of all her tournaments. And that wouldn't be fair because of the small sampling size. The same with her accolades. Let's see how she does over the next five years before we start using terms that put her on par with the greatest players ever. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:57, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Actually those breathing issues were caused by nerves/mental issues per her dad. Do you have a source for this statement? I think you are misremembering what her dad said. According to The Telegraph her dad said that he thought it was due to "the level" and when asked whether she retired due to nerves he said "who knows".

Yes I do, but that's not the point of all this. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:12, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Respectfully, either "put up or shut up". I said in my first reply to you that I agree with your main "point" about how the playing section should be written. Which is I have not reverted any of the changes you made. I only disagreed with your "point" that her first round losses were "awful" and that her breathing difficulties at Wimbledon were due to "mental issues". You decided to double-down on that second "point" by stating that "those breathing issues were caused by nerves/mental issues per her dad" and so I decided to spend the time to completely refute that "point" (as I've heard similar "points" repeated ad nauseam). Yes the ever reliable 'Sun' newspaper did run a misleading headline stating that "Emma Raducanu’s dad hints ‘nerves’ were down to 18-year-old being forced out of Wimbledon with breathing difficulties", but if you read the article you'll see that they were simply speculating based on the "Who knows?" quote that I already provided. 2001:DF0:A280:1001:0:0:3:1 (talk) 08:05, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, nothing respectful about that... lol. Compared to her playing style and the way it was written she had two awful first round losses. Sure they were expected... she was heavily outranked by experienced players. But per the writing in the article she should have been able to wave her magic wand and dispatch them. You just seem fixated and one item as opposed to the whole. Are you her mom? perhaps her shrink? This is comical. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:44, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

It's a turn of phrase. You say you have a source for her dad saying her breathing difficulties were caused by "nerves/mental issues" but won't provide it. Hence "put up or shut up". All you are doing now is deflecting. It is OK to admit you were wrong. This is comical. I agree. This discussion should have ended after my first reply with a simple "Thanks I was wrong" from you, but instead you doubled down. 2001:DF0:A280:1001:0:0:3:1 (talk) 09:42, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

I'll triple down also because that has nothing to do with her playing style being out of whack. Whether you want to call it mental, nerves, accumulated pressure, "I think that it was a combination of everything that has gone on behind the scenes in the last week, the accumulation of the excitement, the buzz". But again it has nothing to do with the original point. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:03, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

It's not a matter of what I "want to call it". She had difficulty breathing after some very long rallies due to a lack of "match fitness" (she hadn't played in an ITF tournament for 15 months prior to Nottingham) and the fact that she was "redlining" — not due to "mental issues", "nerves", or "accumulated pressure". Cherry-picking a quote (which started with "I don't know [what caused the breathing issue]"), from her interview with Sue Barker, doesn't help your argument. At the time she did the Sue Barker interview she didn't know if it was a physical issue which had caused her dizziness and breathing difficulties. All she knew was that the issue "started after some super intense rallies at the end of the first set". At Wimbledon, she was clearly full of adrenaline (due to "accumulation of the excitement, the buzz") and pushed herself too far past her aerobic limit (if you watched the match you could see that she kept sprinting for every ball, even though it looked like she was going to collapse between points) which led to difficulty breathing. She also did a VO2 max test to try to determine whether it was a physical issue or not (after the Sue Barker interview), so you can't just ignore all her quotes saying it was a physical issue and pick out the one quote that you think helps your argument.

But again it has nothing to do with the original point. I already agreed it wasn't your "original point", that's why it should have been incredibly easy for you to admit you were wrong on this. I even gave you an easy out by saying "maybe you're misremembering what her dad said", but still you tripled down on that. If you want to be able to say that an athlete had "mental issues", with no evidence, without being challenged on it, go and write it on your own talkpage. 2001:DF0:A280:1001:0:0:3:1 (talk) 12:00, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

But I wasn't wrong. And maybe if you'd get an account perhaps you might be taken seriously. And the fact you've made seven edits under this IP address, all on talk pages and one of then blanking the IP talk page, is kinda strange. You obviously know some wikipedia syntax so perhaps you are a regular here evading something? I sure hope not. Move along mom or perhaps one of her sponsors. I think I shall and let you have the last word. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:29, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

But I wasn't wrong. Great argument. Really refuted all my well sourced statements with that one. Still waiting on a source for your statement that Emma's dad said that her "breathing issues were caused by nerves/mental issues". Should be easy to find if it exists. And maybe if you'd get an account perhaps you might be taken seriously. I didn't write what I did so that other wikipedia editors would "take me seriously", I wrote it to let the facts be known to any other users that comes across this talk page discussion. You obviously know some wikipedia syntax so perhaps you are a regular here evading something? I sure hope not. No I'm not. Move along mom or perhaps one of her sponsors. Why do you think her sponsors would care about this? To them the false tabloid narrative about Emma having a "panic attack" at Wimbledon, but then overcoming her "mental issues" to win the US Open, is a compelling story. It's just that the story is not true. 2001:DF0:A280:1001:0:0:3:1 (talk) 07:41, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

9:59PM Our Sport News Correspondent Tom Morgan is at Wimbledon and reports: 'Father Ian said he was proud "as many people are”. Asked why he thought his daughter had retired, he said: "I think it's the level." Asked if it was nerves, he replied: "Who knows?"

Also, it's worth noting that when her dad made those comments to Tom Morgan, he hadn't spoken to Emma yet. When Emma was asked in her US Open 2nd round post-match press conference about what she learned from her experience at Wimbledon she said

8:03 I think Wimbledon, it just taught me how physical I had to be for every single match and at the end it was my physicality that let me down. But that was my my first tournament on the tour at such a high level, so now, having played maybe four or five weeks, I'm still extremely fresh and new to the whole situation, but given the matches that I've played, I'm able to keep up a lot more physically. That’s definitely the biggest standout thing in my game that is going to take me far or is going to limit me.

And when asked whether she found it easier to play away from the UK, "which obviously has all that added pressure and focus of attention", she said

11:02 I don't think that there was any pressure over Wimbledon. I think that all of the support, and like, well, not attention, but all of the support and cheering I was getting was helping me more than anything, and I didn't feel in any way that I was burdened at all, I was just so appreciative and grateful. So I don't think, at all, that it's easier to play here than at Wimbledon. The home crowd, there's nothing that compares to playing in front of a home crowd at Wimbledon, for me that's definitely just the pinnacle of tennis. But I absolutely love it here in the states, and the crowd have made me feel so at home and so welcome here in the states, so I'm really really grateful."

Now maybe you could argue that Emma is "just saying that", but I think that she has shown both through her play and also how she handles herself off the court, that she really didn't feel overwhelmed by the pressure at Wimbledon, and she seemed to allude to that fact in her Good Morning America interview, where she said that what she has done "sort of speaks for itself"

Q: You know we were talking about in the piece how you had to drop out of Wimbledon because you had these breathing difficulties, what did you take away from that experience?

A: I took away that, for me, it was more of a physical issue, I think that to win a grand slam you need a lot of mental strength, so I think that the resilience part of it um, you know, sort of speaks for itself. But physically I've still got a lot of work to do, because I'm still very new to the game and I haven't had that time to really develop, but having played on tour for the last four or five weeks I think naturally with each match and tournament I've played I've just increased my endurance a little bit.

2001:DF0:A280:1001:0:0:3:1 (talk) 05:45, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

And you taking that away from the conversation on playing style is incredible. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:10, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

New section for endorsements or other activities?

She has recently been announced as the new face of fashion brand Dior, including their skincare/makeup collection.[9] It's very likly that in the future she'll have endorsements or be brand ambassador to other notable brands, among other possible things. So I'm just wondering if I or another user would want to add a section for Radncanu's other non-tennis related activities and or brand endorsements. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 18:35, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

New section

Year end rankings? Quinlighting (talk) 00:17, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

The year end rankings for tennis player wiki pages is the last row of the statistics table, which hers already has. I think more importantly as she plays more tournaments with a full schedule next year a dedicated statistics page will have to be made to keep in line with other player wiki pages. See Iga Świątek career statistics for example compared to her main page here: Iga Świątek. Raducanu's wiki page for now is not overwhelmed with current statistics, but over time it will keep building and become more than half the page and will need to be shifted to a dedicated one.350z33 (talk) 12:36, 4 November 2021 (UTC)