Talk:Ely, Cambridgeshire/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Opening heading

'mealy' is not a well-known word, so many people will not know how to pronounce it. I suggest a replacement rhyme.

Population data

Just updated the population figure in the text from the 1994 County Council estimate to the2001 Census data. There is a more recent2004 estimate (15,630), but it seems preferable to use the 2001 Census data... -- Sjb90 30 June 2005 17:28 (UTC)

Isle of Ely

"It is the main city in the Isle of Ely." -- excuse my ignorance here as I know little about the historical background of the Isle of Ely... However, as I understand it from this article, the Isle of Ely as an administrative area hasn't existed since 1965. In addition, the council website suggests that, before 1965, Ely did not have city status. I'm unaware (but quite possibly just ignorant) of other cities that were within the Isle of Ely region -- so is it helpful for us to say that Ely is "the main city in the Isle of Ely"? I'm tempted to remove this sentence entirely, but thought it a good idea to check whether anyone has any comments first... -- Sjb90 30 June 2005 23:24 (UTC)

Re. - I think it may refer to how Ely was part of an island chain, or so I recall from viewing a map of the area when it was flooded. -- Norminator 20:51, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Amendment needed

"Local celebrities such as Peter Newman and Luke Gimblett can often be seen shopping in Ely's exclusive cloisters district."

This needs either deleting or a citation being put in - I think it may have originally been inserted as a joke. The Cloisters is hardly an 'exclusive district', and several google searches have failed to throw up anything more than this page in regards to Peter Newman or Luke Gimblett's identities or claimed celebrity status. - Norminator (talk) 19:03, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Layout

Hi folks, just a nudge about the WP:UKCITIES standard, which would help better organise and standardise the content of this article. Hope it helps, --Jza84 |  Talk  11:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation?

I propose the disambig be moved here, and this be moved to "Ely, England". The Jade Knight (talk) 21:53, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Ely needs disambiguation from Ely and Ely --Senra (Talk) 17:23, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Muscovy Ducks

In revision 323902172 I put in a note about Ely's Muscovy population, and it was removed as 'vandalism'. The Ely population is mentioned twice in the main article on Muscovy ducks, which I feel implies they deserve a mention here. Could anyone explain to me why this obviously isn't true? ----26th November 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.207.182 (talk) 01:50, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The result of the move request was: not moved Kotniski (talk) 10:52, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. Ely, Cambridgeshire → Ely — I would have thought that the cathedral city ought to be the prime topic. Crouch, Swale talk to me My contribs 11:50, 5 December 2010 (UTC) Strong Oppose as WP:POINT. Clearly this is not the primary use. Ely, Nevada has a significant history in the American west and has almost as many page views. It is also a county seat. Add in the views for Ely, Minnesota and you have more then this page and that's ignoring all of the other topics on the dab page. It is the eastern terminus of the Loneliest Road in America and on the route of the Lincoln Highway, the first transcontinental highway in the United States. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:19, 5 December 2010 (UTC) Oppose. Ridiculous idea. Proposer is wasting a lot of people's time with many move requests which seem to have no basis in policy. Andrewa (talk) 00:32, 6 December 2010 (UTC) Oppose per note about Ely NV. 65.94.47.218 (talk) 06:04, 6 December 2010 (UTC) Oppose. No obvious primary topic here. --DAJF (talk) 06:49, 6 December 2010 (UTC) Oppose. No primary topic - and becoming a waste of people's time. Keith D (talk) 22:02, 6 December 2010 (UTC) If there had to be a primary topic, it would probably be the city in Cambridgeshire, but the size of the places and number of article views are close enough for a disambiguation page to be needed. Peter E. James (talk) 03:11, 7 December 2010 (UTC) The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Two conflicting etymologies

Why? At the start of the article there is gentle speculation that the name originally meant eel island. Later, there is an Etymology section, which categorically states that the name means eel region. What's going on? APW (talk) 09:16, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Kevin De La Noy

Another editor and I are in conflict over whether a man called Kevin De La Noy should be included in a list of notable people from Ely. This person does not have an article on Wikipedia, and I suspect that they are not notable. There's certainly very little that comes up in terms of suitable sources to show notability if his name is googled. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 15:36, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

I checked the sources given for the information (which the editor has re-added without taking up the invitation to discuss) and neither of them mention Ely at all. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 15:39, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

I checked what the guidelines for this type of article and here's what it says on people for inclusion in a 'notable people' section: "All persons under this section must satisfy Wikipedia:Notability (people)." I still see nothing that suggests that this person fulfills this criteria. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 15:11, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

City status

City status (confirmed)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of Ely City status. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. The result of the discussion was: citation added --Senra (Talk) 22:54, 26 October 2011 (UTC) There was conflicting information in Wikipedia about Ely's city status, so I have checked this with the city council. For the record, below is a copy of my query, and the response from the clerk to the city council. The article is now updated with this information. Email to city council Hello there, I'm trying to find up-to-date information on Ely's historical status as a city, in order to ensure accuracy of information for the popular online encyclopaedia Wikipedia [1]. The City council website seems to suggest that city status was officially conferred on Ely at the time of local government reorganisation in 1974. However, other sources [2] suggest that Ely was regarded as a city before legal memory began (i.e. "since time immemorial"), and so did not require its status to be confirmed by Royal charter. Would it be possible for someone to outline to me the historical basis for Ely's status as a city, please? This is partly just out of interest, and partly to ensure that the Wikipedia is not giving misleading information. Any advice that you can give me would be appreciated! Reply from city council Dear Dr Bell I have spoken to one of my councilors who is a local historian and he has confirmed that both of your statements are correct. It was generally accepted that Ely was a city because it had a cathedral, but it was not until 1974 when the Queen gave us permission to be called a City. Hope this helps. <name removed> Clerk to the Council Ely was indeed a city since 1974. See City#City status United Kingdom and the London Gazette 1974 which states: 1st April 1974. The QUEEN has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm, bearing date the 1st day of April 1974, to ordain that the Town of Ely shall have the status of a City. — The Queen, "No. 46255". The London Gazette. 4 April 1974. {{cite magazine}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) Ely had been thought of as a city for a long time anyway; see for example (Aikin, John (1800), England delineated (IV ed.), J. Johnson, p. 206) --Senra (Talk) 17:19, 20 September 2010 (UTC) The above discussion is preserved as an archive of an Ely City status discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

A wonder of the medieval world?

The caption for the main picture reads "Ely Cathedral's octagon is one of the wonders of the medieval world" What does that mean exactly? Is there an official list of the wonders of the medieval world? If not, it sounds like the opinon of the author cited and isn't really suitable for an image caption. if it's a widely held view it should perhaps read something like "Ely Cathedral's octagon is said to be one of the wonders of the medieval world." Richerman (talk) 17:22, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, I see it does say something like that in the lead - it seems somewhat repetitive to put something similar (and less accurate) in the caption title. Richerman (talk) 17:31, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

See section above: References missing or other issues. Incidentally, J M W Turner loved it and so did Pevsner (1954) who said the octagon was the "... greatest individual achievement of architectural genius at Ely Cathedral" and he attributed it to Alan of Walsingham. I will remove it from the caption based on your comment --Senra (Talk) 23:11, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I think it's better to deal wih it in the text. Just one picky point with the new text - If Ely was always considered a city can it have a village green? I ask because years ago I was at a circus in St David's in Pembrokeshire, which has been always been proud to call itself "Britain's smallest city". The ringmaster started proceedings with "Here we are on the village green" and was immediately met with a chorus of "city green" from the locals. Somehow "city green" doesn't sound quite right though. Richerman (talk) 11:06, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I will chase down a the source but my recollection was village green. I might even be able to pin it specifically to the parish of St Mary's green. Anyway, before the cathedral was built, pre Domesday, it was a village with a green and 110 households living in Ely at the Domesday survey itself, mainly monastery support dudes. In a 1563 survey we had 800 households and by 1610 (see Speeds plan of Ely) and according to Stewart (1868) that was the Palace Green and the plan of the "citie" was looking similar to the city of today (today in this context being 1863). The Bishop's Palace was built between 1486 and 1501. I'm going for village green but will find a source --Senra (Talk) 12:09, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Also, (not out of spite but out of fun) I checked the text and "... always considered a city ..." was not used. It was "... long been considered a city" :) --Senra (Talk) 12:12,

Touché - that's fighting pickyness with pickyness :) Richerman (talk) 19:11, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Found it. "Even Domesday can be read in a similar light. True, it divides the villages of the Isle between two hundreds, ..." Edward Miller's The Abbey & Bishopric of Ely: The Social History of an Ecclesiastical Estate from the tenth century to the early fourteenth century - Cambridge UP, 1951 (reprinted 1969) p. 31. Miller doesn't say but I recall from elsewhere that these two "parishes" would be Trinity and St Mary's and the "village" green we are discussing here would be St Mary's --Senra (Talk) 22:02, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ely, Cambridgeshire/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Lampman (talk · contribs) 00:10, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure whats happened to this review, it seem to have stalled ? Jim Sweeney (talk) 16:10, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I have taken too long; I was under the impression, from talk page discussion, that there was no hurry. If you need something to work with, here's a start: cambridgeshirehistory.com is under no circumstances a reliable source – it is a website published by an anonymous. Seeing that the bibliography contains sources like the VCH and other RSs, I don't think there is any excuse for relying so heavily on this for the history. Lampman (talk) 07:45, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Some books that might cover this:

• Carpenter, David (2003). The Struggle for Mastery: Britain, 1066-1284. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0195220005.
• Clanchy, M. T. (1998). England and its rulers, 1066-1272. Oxford: Blackwell. ISBN 0-631-20557-8.
• Powicke, F. M. (1947). King Henry III and the Lord Edward: The Community of the Realm in the Thirteenth Century. Oxford: Clarendon Press.
• Maddicott, John (1994). Simon de Montfort. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0521374936.
• Prestwich, Michael (1997). Edward I (updated ed.). New Haven: Yale University Press. ISBN 0300072090.
• Prestwich, Michael (2007). Plantagenet England: 1225-1360 (new ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0198228449.
• Sadler, John (2008). The Second Barons' War: Simon de Motfort and the Battles of Lewes and Evesham. Barnsley: Pen & Sword Military. ISBN 1844158314.

Just as a suggestion, obviously I don't mean you have to incorporate all of this. Lampman (talk) 08:39, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Another thing: I think the lead, at five paragraphs, is too long even for an article this size. Some details could be cut, but furthermore, its structure is a bit confused. It seems to me like the following:

Location (which is fine) - History, transportation - Geography, economy (fine) - Transportation (which we've already done in part 2) - History (which we've already done), education, misc.

Instead, how about a simpler structure, like:

Location - History - Geography, economy - Transportation, education, misc.

Just a suggestion, but I'm sure if you read Wikipedia:Lead#Length, you'll agree this one is a bit too long. Lampman (talk) 08:03, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not crazy about the heading "Saxon roots", seeing how this section covers a 1000-year period from the 7th to the 17th century. I'd go for something more boring, like "Medieval and early modern something, something..." Lampman (talk) 08:08, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Great. Thank you. I will get on to the above asap. In the meantime, sorry if there was confusion. My "take your time" was meant to imply no need to review immediately :( but I was getting slightly nervous after a week as my sources need to go back to the library in a week.

I see, I'll try to get through it as quickly as possible then. Lampman (talk) 14:13, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Responses

Striking above as items cleared

• "cambridgeshirehistory.com is under no circumstances a reliable source"—Agreed poorly sourced material removed to talk page with the intention of working sourced material back in but this is a lot of work --Senra (Talk) 11:00, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
• "I am not crazy about the heading 'Saxon roots'"—Agreed changed to "Medieval to early modern" though I think this needs to change again --Senra (Talk) 11:00, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
• Lead too long—Stet for now as this needs careful crafting but it will get done --Senra (Talk) 11:00, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Lead too long—Agreed prose re-ordered and length cut to four paragraphs as per above and Wikipedia:Lead#Length. I accept that the lead may need further work. For now, I consider it done --Senra (Talk) 19:52, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Detailed review

Ok, here are my objections. Nothing major, all in all well written and exceptionally well researched.

• "the 1066 survey" – what is this; was there really a survey in 1066 already, or is it a confusion with Domesday? If there was one, it probably shouldn't say "the 1066 survey", as if it's been mentioned before, but rather "by the time of a 1066 survey" or something like that. Agreed changed to "... by the time of the Domesday survey (1066)" --Senra (Talk) 11:40, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

But surely Domesday was in 1086? Lampman (talk) 20:43, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

• William the Conqueror is occasionally referred to as that, and occasionally as "William I". I think it would be better to be consistent and call him William the Conqueror – the name under which he is best known, and the title of the article. Agreed changed --Senra (Talk) 11:40, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
• William Wolsey & Robert Pygot – some brief context would be good here, I take it this was during Mary's counter-reformation?

• Stet as I need to work on this. I looked at Counter-Reformation which looks right in this context but as I cannot use Wikipedia as a source am researching sources --Senra (Talk) 11:40, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
• I have access to Foxe (1838) pp. ii–iii who does not use the term counter-reformation. However, he does describe the Papacy's first effective efforts to re-establish its influence in England following the ascendancy of Mary to the throne. Counter-reformation is probably a modern term. Based on Foxe, I prepended "Following the ascendancy of Mary I of England to the throne in 1553, the Papacy made its first effective efforts to enforce the Pope Paul III initiated Catholic reforms in England.[29] During this time, which became known as the counter-reformation, ..." --Senra (Talk) 12:24, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I think a better link would be Marian Persecutions, then you wouldn't need a ref. Lampman (talk) 20:43, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Agreed done --Senra (Talk) 22:52, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

• "chorographic" is a quite unusual word, it should be wikilinked to Chorography. Agreed and indeed it was linked then recently unlinked :( --Senra (Talk) 11:40, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
• "Liberals finished in third place in the constituency for the first time ever." – there a [citation needed] tag here that needs to be resolved. Agreed done. I think I was ahead of you on this one :) --Senra (Talk) 11:40, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
• John Alcock died in 1500, did he not? Stet his bishopric lasted 1486–1501 according to PEVSNER (1970)[1954] p. 378 (I also checked PEVSNER'S addenda p. 559). How should I handle this? --Senra (Talk) 11:40, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
  • By changing "1501" to "1500" and giving a source for his dates that isn't wrong! Obviously he wasn't bishop after his death on 1st Oct 1500; there was a vacancy until his successor's bishopric began in mid-1501. You can't say "1486-1501" because whilst Pevsner's fine for architectural stuff, it's not first-choice material for dates of bishops when there's a clash between Pevsner and what actually happened. Bencherlite^Talk 19:54, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree; here's a source you could use for the 1500 date:

• Powicke, Maurice (1961). Handbook of British Chronology (2nd ed.). London: Royal Historical Society. pp. p. 224. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) Lampman (talk) 20:43, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Agreed done ""Alcock, John". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (online ed.). Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/289. (Subscription or UK public library membership required.)" --Senra (Talk) 22:52, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

• "Ely is the nearest cathedral city to Cambridge, which lies within the same diocese but does not have its own cathedral." – this sentence confuses me a bit. I think it's the "but", since there's really no contradiction between the two propositions: isn't it exactly because it doesn't have its own cathedral that it lies within the diocese of Ely? (I suppose Cambridge is a bit unusual, in that it is a city but not a diocese?) Anyway, I think this could be rewritten a bit clearer. Agreed though unsure exactly how to reword this. For now, I have removed "... but does not have its own cathedral" as confusing and (marginally?) redundant --Senra (Talk) 11:44, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

That's fine. Lampman (talk) 20:43, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

That's really it. The lead is a lot clearer now, and the use of reliable sources much better. If these issues can be resolved, it should be set to go. Lampman (talk) 10:58, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok, that should be it! Lovely article, and lovely place; I've been there a few times (once after getting on the wrong train from Cambridge to London, but that's another story). Good luck if you chose to take it further! Lampman (talk) 23:44, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Your comments have been very much appreciated. Despite the article, Ely has modernised a lot! We now have a Starbucks, Costa and Caffè Nero as well as a least one good pub :) Thank you again for the promotion --Senra (Talk) 00:30, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Article improvements

I intend to help improve this article, initially as set out in Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements, then by taking the article through the full review process. I have local access to Ely Library and the Cambridgeshire archives. In order for this article to progress through the review chain, apart from adding referenced prose, some sections will need to be removed. For example, the article is unlikely to successfully pass through a WP:GA nomination and beyond with the existing gallery section (see also WP:NOT and Wikipedia:Gallery pages). Anyone wishing to help this process, please list your name below, noting any specialism or experience you feel would be useful. Further comments should be added after the list of names --Senra (Talk) 14:55, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

List of users wishing to help improve this article

• Senra (talk · contribs) - list of Wikipedia articles, lives locally -- Senra (Talk) 14:55, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

It was suggested by Pontificalibus (talk · contribs) that we consider looking at the good article Wells as a model for Ely. We could consider using readable prose-size as a starting point: the Ely article is 8,597 B, Wells is 18 kB and the nearby featured article Little Thetford is 27 kB. Article size is not the only way of measuring article quality of course --Senra (Talk) 15:53, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Lead (or lede) section

It is recognised that the lead section is currently in a poor state and does not adequately summarise the article. However, in order to improve the lead, more detail needs to be added to the article body. After the article has been improved, we can re-write the lead to match --Senra (Talk) 14:57, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

 Done or at least a first attempt at it --Senra (Talk) 22:05, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Latest attempt at the lead following GA1 review --Senra (Talk) 20:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

History

• In this version of the article, the Hereward sentences: "The site Ely Castle was one of the last holdouts in England to the rule of William I, its leader Hereward the Wake remaining independent until his surrender in 1071. Following William's defeat of Hereward he commissioned the construction of Ely Castle. It was demolished some time in the thirteenth century" needs a re-write. Firstly, they are entirely un-sourced and secondly Hereward the Wake was a character from English folklore like Robin Hood or a legendary hero like King Arthur and therefore these sentences should be re-worded to match. I have removed these sentences until they can be sourced and re-worded --Senra (Talk) 23:14, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Politics section

Should this be called Government? In any case, this currently unreferenced section needs considerable work. I am not enough of a social scientist to be able to do this properly. It seems likely that political self-governance began in Ely during the reign of Edgar the Peaceful (r. 959–75) and continued until 1888 according to Miller, E. (1953) VCH pp 1–27—also available on-line. If anyone feels able to write about 500 properly cited words it would be a great help. How to write about settlements:Government may be a useful starting point --Senra (Talk) 12:23, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

 Done This section has now been referenced though it could do with some expansion --Senra (Talk) 21:35, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I've added a bit about local government, though the referencing isn't brilliant. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 15:34, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Brilliant. Any possibility of discussing (in the article) the (possibly) unique governance of Ely since Edgar the Peaceful? For example, I believe the Bishop of the Isle of Ely had the right to appoint chief justices ; and perhaps other historical rights. I don't know how unique this was --Senra (Talk) 17:47, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Notable buildings

Twenty three Grade I listed buildings were recently added to the article as a list taken from the listed building database. There are six Grade II* and approx. 100 Grade II listed buildings. It is intended that some of the more notable Grade I and Grade II* buildings will be left in this article as prose—feel free to help with this process. I propose all these Grade I plus all Grade II* and some Grade II listed buildings be migrated to Listed buildings in Ely, Cambridgeshire. This proposal is modelled on the Christchurch, Dorset (a WP:GA article) with its associated Listed buildings in Christchurch, Dorset list --Senra (Talk) 01:37, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Comparison of similar featured articles

To improve Ely, which is a city with a pop. 15,102²⁰⁰¹, I suggest comparing it with other featured articles that have some similarities. I believe the current criteria for featured article status is at a higher standard than previous years. Still, if we at least try, we will have improved the article for the better anyway

• Stephens City, Virginia town pop. 1,829²⁰¹⁰ promoted 2010
• Birchington-on-Sea village pop. 9,800²⁰⁰¹ promoted 2007
• Brownhills town pop. 12,607²⁰⁰¹ promoted 2007
• Sheerness town pop. 11,605²⁰⁰¹ promoted 2007
• Westgate-on-Sea town pop. 6,594²⁰⁰¹ promoted 2007
• Weymouth, Dorset town pop. 52,950^2006? promoted 2006

References missing or other issues

• I cannot find The Rough Guide To England (1994, page 596)) - nearest I can find is Andrews, Robert (2004). Rough guide to England. ISBN 9781843532491.. Has anyone got a copy they can check please --Senra (Talk) 17:28, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

• Andrews (2004) is preview searchable using Google books and on page 596 when discussing Ely Cathedral we have "The first things to strike you as you enter the nave are the sheer length of the building and the lively nineteenth-century painted ceiling, largely the work of amateur volunteers. The nave's procession of plain late-Norman arches, built around the same time as those of peterborough, leads to the architectural feature that makes Ely so special, the octagon – the only one of its kind in England – built in 1322 to replace the collapsed central tower. Its construction, employing the largest oaks available in England to support some four hundred tons of glass and lead, remains one of the wonders of the medieval world, and the effect, as you look up into this Gothic dome, is simply breathtaking". I will modify the article to suite --Senra (Talk) 22:51, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

• I've got the paper version (2004), which says the above on page 596. I'd take issue with this book being an RS; how does the author know that they used the largest oaks available in England in 1322? I'm glad they used "amateur volunteers" to paint the ceiling instead of those pesky professional volunteers. The first thing that struck me on entering the nave was the admission charge. Ning-ning (talk) 06:31, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

• I agree that Andrews 2004 may not be RS. It was not my insertion. As you can see I am trying to improve the article although I am also trying hard to maintain content if I can in deference to the original editors. In this case, the first insertion mis-quoted Andrews 2004, so all I have done is correct that mis-quote. Incidentally, Pevsner (1977)[1954] p. 355 explains that "As the idea of a wide octagonal crossing is the greatest individual achievement of architectural genius at Ely Cathedral, ..." and then goes on to tell us that the idea came from the sacrist Alan of Walsingham, not the mason. Pevsner p. 357 continues "It [the Octagon] is a joy from beginning to end for anyone who feels for space as strongly as for construction". Perhaps I should just include Pevsners words on the octagon (lots of them pp. 355–359). See also J. M. W. Turners vision of the octagon too! Anyway, in the meantime, we will see if the Andrews quote survives the review process --Senra (Talk) 15:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

• Is there any reference to the octagon being used as a perch for a choir, who would sing through the eight "doorways"? The octagon could be seen not only as an architectural feature, but also as a piece of liturgical machinery (probably deserves its own article).Ning-ning (talk) 21:03, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

• Choir perches are not my field. There are no such references in the architectural sources I just checked (VCH, Pevsner) though Bentham or Stewart, being more, erm, religious, might have something to say—their tomes are used as sources in the Ely article. I will look later. In the meantime I did have a brief look at Ely Cathedral and note that it is an un-referenced article so no help there really :( --Senra (Talk) 12:51, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• I have used the "group=lower-roman" parameter to format the footnotes sub-section of the references section to use Roman numerals to distinguish them from the Arabic numerals used in the notes sub-section. See Help:Cite link labels for details --Senra (Talk) 14:44, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
• I have used {{Harvnb}} where there is a corresponding bibliography entry. This neatly allows you to click a link in the notes sub-section of the references section which will take you to the corresponding entry in the bibliography sub-section. Such entries must use {{Citation}} and contain valid "|last=" and "|year=" parameters for {{Harvnb}} to work correctly. I have also fixed some bare-url references such in {{Cite news}} in the article too. I may have missed some --Senra (Talk) 14:44, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Gallery

This gallery, previously in the article, was removed today as per automated review, NOT and Gallery pages. Some of the images from the gallery have been retained in-line within the article --Senra (Talk) 21:01, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Click show for the Ely gallery previously in the article

• Images
• 
  Signpost in Ely
• 
  Ely Cathedral and Palace Green
• 
  Ely on a winter morning
• 
  The Cathedral viewed from The Gallery
• 
  The Market Place, Ely
• 
  Lots of produce at the French market
• 
  A stall on the French market
• 
  Oliver Cromwell's house, tourist information and museum.
• 
  The river quayside
• 
  The River Great Ouse, Ely
• 
  The quayside and river Great Ouse
• 
  Canal boats moored on the river
• 
  Ely Cathedral seen from the park
• 
  Looking back towards the riverside Cutter Inn
• 
  Palace Green viewed from the cathedral
• 
  High Street passage, Ely, linking Market Street and the High Street
• 
  Frosty Dean's meadow viewed from Cherry Hill Park
• 
  Ducks on palace Green, Ely
• 
  St Mary's Cottage, Ely
• 
  Ely railway station-Crowded platform
• 
  The Gallery and 14th century Porta

Any Ely photographers fancy a challenge? We need copyright free images of all the listed buildings in Ely, Cambridgeshire please. We are not sure how many of those in the list will remain. However, it is likely that all grade I, all grade II* (not yet in the list) and perhaps a few grade II. See all grades of listed buildings using Images of England web site. Once registered (it is free), click advanced search then using Ely as the place-name and post-town, Cambridgehsire as the county and if you wish, select the grade of building you are interested in or leave the grade blank for the full list --Senra (Talk) 00:54, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm nowhere near Ely, but Geograph may be of use. All images there are on a Wikipedia compatible licence, and many of them may already be on Commons. See my user page for more details of the Geograph websites. Mjroots (talk) 15:04, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Cheers. Thank you --Senra (Talk) 19:10, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Wow! There are 311 images in Geograph centred on a 1 km square around the postcode CB7 4EJ (Lamb Hotel) and 633 within 2 km. I am working my way through the the 1 km group now --Senra (Talk) 19:33, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Cultural references

Please ensure all such references are as per Wikipedia:UKCITIES#Cultural_references

• Daniel Defoe's 1724–1727 A tour thro' the whole island of Great Britain contains a not very flattering passage on Ely which might be useful for both the history section and this cultural references section --Senra (Talk) 14:46, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
• Dorman draws parallels with the Victorian life of characters in Anthony Trollope's Chronicles of Barsetshire (published 1855–1867) and the Ely people --Senra (Talk) 14:46, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
• Dorman quotes an unflattering passage about Ely first published in 1830 --Senra (Talk) 14:46, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Other conversations concerning this article

• John Speed and John Speed
• Gazetteer of markets
• Defoe's tour of Britain
• Charters of Eastern England and Babylon-ware of Ely
• Opium in the fens
• Ely workhouses
• Roslyn Pliosaur find date
• Historic and contemporary politics
• Ely, Cambridgeshire
• Ely West Curve
• Nothing else to say ...
• Ely Inns and erm Ely Inns
• Liberty of Ely and Ely both discuss the liberty of Ely
• Date of Ely station
• ce discussion and coprolite mining
• Russian gun at Ely

Notes from Ely Chronicle

Transcripts of stories 1820–1860 vol. VI VII transcribed by Muriel Wallace (none of the volumes are dated. The library catalogue notes that volume I was typed and bound in 2008)

January 10 1846

• "The present temporary Station at Ely, having been found insufficient, orders were given last Tuesday, for extensive additional buildings".

January 11 1845

• "Ely a port.

Ely it appears, is about to become a very important place; the facilities for the profitable employment of captial appear to be growing great, few places being so fortunately situated as to have railways branching in every direction. Besides this successful efforts have been made to navigate the river up as far as Ely with vessels of from 70 to 80 tons burden, which will no doubt cause a great deal of the coasting trade to be transferred from Wisbech and Lynn to Ely. The new year has begun well with us; from one to two thousand quarters of corn have already been shipped within the last three days, and we have had an arrival of a vessel laden with coal from Newcastle. Best coal is now selling at 25s and 26s per ton; a few days with a fair wind will bring us fresh arrivals from Newcastle and Yorkshire, and a further reduction in the price is looked for, which will give timely relief to a class of persons who have suffered from the scarcity of that article; already three vessels belong to parties residing in the town ..."

November 8 1822

• The Lord Bishop of Ely has appointed William Watson, Esq. of Wisbech, to the patent office of Chief Bailiff of the Royal Franchise of the Isle of Ely, on the resignation of Francis Bagge Esq. – Mr Bentham in his history of Ely, inform us that 'The Franchis of Ely is one of the most ancient of the kind in the whole kingdom, and may be traced back as far as the 7th Century, and as it is most probably the most ancient so does it contain a large district and has more powers and privileges belonging to it than any other Franchise except that of the Bishop of Durham.' – The Office of Chief Bailiff is of high importance, being equivalent in the Isle to that of High Sherrif in a County ..."

An on-line edition of Bentham's book is referenced in the article --Senra (Talk) 11:20, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

references

References

Good source here

See http://www.cambridgeshirehistory.com/cambridgeshire/timeline/timeline8.html Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:29, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Not a reliable source. See GA review --Senra (Talk) 10:24, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

The below removed from the article as per GA1 review. It will go back in when we find sources to cover it but this will be a lot of work

In 1142, Geoffrey de Mandeville, 1st Earl of Essex and Gilbert de Clare, 1st Earl of Pembroke were sent to Ely by King Stephen of England to suppress the uprising of a group of knights who had established a base there. The castle may also have been used during this episode. de Mandeville's allegiance switched between Stephen and Empress Matilda as it suited him, and when Bishop Nigel travelled to Rome, de Mandeville, who had noted the ease with which the isle could be defended, took possession of it and held it against the king. From Ely, he and his rebels terrorised the surrounding fens until 1144, when Stephen's army took control and de Mandeville was killed at Fordham. The same defensible quality of the Isle of Ely was noted by KingHenry III in 1256. He was concerned that the island could be seized and held by rebels, and ordered the Church to ensure that the entrance to the island was guarded "... from sunset to sunrise so that no unlawful person could enter". In 1266, rebels supporting Simon de Montfort and styling themselves "The Disinherited" seized the island as a base for raiding the uplands. Supplies, livestock and wealthy persons were taken and carried back; the rich were held to ransom. After 1300, extreme care was taken in choosing bishops for Ely to ensure that they were loyal to the throne. Despite this, the city took part in the Peasants' Revolt of 1381.

The Original Charter and copies of the Minute Book containing Oliver Cromwell's handwriting and signature have been loaned to the Ely Museum. The Charity still provides Grants and Housing to deserving local applicants. During the English Civil War, (1642–1651), Cambridgeshire was strongly on theparliamentarian side, but one of Bishop Matthew Wren's churchmen attempted to read a Royal proclamation at Ely. Some of the fenmen joined the Royalist army, and in 1642 parliament ordered that the land should be re-flooded by breaking the dykes to stop a Royalist advance. The area became increasingly Puritan in outlook, and during the Ely assize of 1647 there were 13 executions of witches.

Please strike any prose that you re-enter into the article --Senra (Talk) 14:46, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

References

File:Ely the market place.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Ely the market place.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations What should I do? Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Commons Undeletion Request This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 14:23, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

The above arose out of Copyright status of images in books distributed by Project Gutenderg and has now been resolved because the commons file:Ely the market place.jpg has been replaced by the Wikipedia file:Ely the market place-1.jpg --Senra (Talk) 22:56, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Replacement Ely Cathedral image

• replacement required for the existing image --Senra (Talk) 22:50, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
• Other options

• This image is, IMHO a better image. The cathedral is more vertical. However, the trees in the foreground get in the way of the main subject and on that basis I do not think it is a suitable replacement --Senra (Talk) 00:24, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
• This image is also very good. It is sharp and shows almost the whole north façade and a little of the west façade of the cathedral. However, that is the very issue with this image. The horizontal perspective is distorted due to the way the 26 images have been taken then stitched together and there is very marked barrel distortion of the west tower. Also, I do not think a landscape image is suitable for the lead --Senra (Talk) 00:24, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

• I have edited the original image to correct the vertical perspective. The resulting image may be satisfactory unless anyone has a different opinion --Senra (Talk) 17:18, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I am looking for help to determine a suitable replacement infobox image, from a small selection, for this article --Senra (Talk) 22:55, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Below are some of my ideas in no particular order:

[1] West façade (original): Modern

[2] West façade (current): Perspective adjusted version of original

[3] North-west aspect: Modern panorama

[4] South-east aspect: 1824–25 J M W Turner painting (I need to find a commons suitable version of this

[5] West façade: Modern

[6] North-east aspect: Mid nineteenth century

[7] South-east from the air: Modern

[8] Something else

--Senra (Talk) 22:50, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The Turner is far too self-consciously picturesque, and the Buckler is pointlessly outdated; I'd say the second, or the sixth options. --Orange Mike | Talk 13:49, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

OrangeMike: you suggest 6th option is okay, but that is the Buckler that you also say is outdated. Maybe they got renumbered after your comment? --Noleander (talk) 23:30, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - 1 and 2 are too close-up, too crammed. 3 is too dark/shadowy. 4 and 6 are historical artworks, and are better in the body of the article, not the top; 7 is hazy and shadowy and dizzying. By process of elimination, that leaves 5. --Noleander (talk) 23:30, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you both. I refactored my ideas above to fix the numbers and add a 8th option although per @Noleander, as far as I can tell, the numbering has not changed --Senra (Talk) 14:03, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I have struck image 5, which is my own image on Flickr. I eventually found the original image that was uploaded to Flickr in my private image archives. I have carefully examined the image. It is unsuitable for upload to Wikimedia. The image I uploaded to Flickr had been considerably digitally sharpened. Therefore, we are still looking for a better lead image if one can be found --Senra (talk) 12:51, 2 January 2012 (UTC)