Talk:Ellis Gibbons/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 09:40, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm happy to review this article, it looks rather interesting.

Nice to see you again Amitchell125, indeed it was an interesting one to work on. For context, I had been working on his brother, Orlando (which will be a long process...), and thought it might be fun to get Ellis up to GA standard since there is so little information on him in the first place. Thanks for reviewing! Aza24 (talk) 01:42, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Assessment

Lead section

Link Cambridge. Done I think the lead section needs a little tweaking to ensure that it summarises the main text, (see MOS:LEAD for where I am coming from). Hmm fair enough, I'll see what I can do. Consider adding that: - he was not known to have held any musical appointments; - some have doubted that Gibbons was the composer of the two madrigals published under his name; - he possibly died of the plague. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:47, 2 August 2020 (UTC) Sorry I missed this before, I added the first two, since the plague is even more circumstantial and speculative than the other two I left it out... gotta save something for the lead ...likely as a musician of some kind. - this doesn’t appear in the text and isn’t cited, so it looks like OR. Fixed by adding to the main text? See the second paragraph of the "Life and Career" section Whoops, thanks for that. He was evidently counted as having promise by his contemporaries… - ditto. Removed – This on the other hand is probably a stretch, good catch. Remnants of the article before I came to it I believe ...one of two composers to contribute two madrigals… - I’m assuming that nobody contributed more than two, but it’s not clear that my assumption is correct. Could the text be made clearer? Done – You assume correctly, I added "only" Looks better now, also I amended the sentence slightly to avoid a repetition of madrigals. ...of which he is best remembered by.. What else is he remembered for? Not much other than being brother of Orlando. In which case I would amend the sentence to say 'These madrigals were Long live fair Oriana and Round about her Chariot; none of his other works survive'. Done 2 months… - it looks better as ‘Two months...’ (see MOS:NUMERAL). Done

Life and career

Link parish; subsidy roles; musicologists; residuary legatee (Residuary estate). Done I would replace the link to St Paul's Cathedral with Old St Paul's Cathedral (destroyed in 1666, but the one Gibbons would have known). Done – Good catch ... at Holy Trinity Church. - consider amending to ‘...at Holy Trinity Church, on Market Street.’, or something similar, to help readers understand it was in the middle of Cambridge. Done The editor Thomas Morley… - Isn't Morley better known as a composer? Indeed. hmm I used editor here to make it clear that Morley also received the distinction of putting in 2 works since he was the editor, I could change to "editor and composer"? ...Fellowes speculates… - ‘speculated’, as Fellowes died in 1951. Done 1581/82 saw the birth of Ferdinando, who probably took his William's place as wait. - this sounds like he was a very talented baby. Adjust the prose here? Done – haha fair enough. Just a note I changed it to "eventually" since when he took his father's place is not known Ref 1 (Fellowes) doesn’t seem to verify the date of his baptism (although p.15—not p. 28—does verify the place. The ODNB article ‘Edward Gibbons’ provides the date. Done – my copy does, except for the month and the year which are on the next page; I've edited it to both pages as the ref (the archive.org copy doesn;'t seem to even have page 28?) ...the most successful musician of the family. - Ref 7 (Fell.) only says Orlando was a famous musician. Done – changed to source to Britannica that says he was the "most illustrious" ... the head of the Oxford town waits. - the mention of Oxford here might throw readers, because the first two paragraphs give the impression the family lived in Cambridge, 80 miles away. I would include some information explaining where the Gibbons family lived during the period William and Mary were bringing up a family. Done – it looks like he was head of the oxford waits around 10 years after Ellis's birth so I've mentioned his role as the head Cambridge waits and added some clearer information on his family. Is there a maiden name for Mary Gibbons? No, infact Harley specifies that it is unknown, worth a note maybe? Definitely. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:24, 30 July 2020 (UTC) Done … suggesting that he spent time in London. - I found this on p. 15 of Harley. Does your edition agree with me? Mine has 16 ...and other early biographies claim. - the correct page number for the citation from note 91 that follows this is needed (note 91 in Harley is not found on p. 15). Mine has 15... hmm if you're using the google version it looks like the formatting per page is different, google books sometimes does this, hence why it doesn't have page numbers (since the formatting makes the pages different – probably from font size) Apologies for not being clearer, the information is verified by a note, but you've cited the page that refers to the note, not the page where the text of the note appears. That's the page I'm after (my Google Books edition has no page numbers at all.) Clear as mud... Amitchell125 (talk) 15:30, 30 July 2020 (UTC) I think I've found the issue, my edition has the notes mixed in with the text as literal footnotes below the text, rather than a collection of notes at the end of the section. Since the google books version has them all together at the end, this is probably why it doesn't have page numbers, since they would be completely different then the print edition. Aza24 (talk) 22:59, 1 August 2020 (UTC) Thanks for your patience here. Your reply prompted me to search for your edition, which I found and added to Sources. — At the age of 28 he became the only composer, other than the editor Thomas Morley himself, to contribute two madrigals to The Triumphs of Oriana, a collection of 25 madrigals by 23 composers, published in 1601. - This sentence surely belongs in the next section, but may not be needed, as the Music sections already says ‘Other than two pieces in a 1601 collection of madrigals by 23 English composers: The Triumphs of Oriana…’ and ‘The publisher Thomas Morley was the only other composer to contribute two madrigals to The Triumphs of Oriana…’. Hm well given the few events in his life, I figured its inclusion (and the only mention of his career) has necessary, I'd rather leave it in. OK, but I'd avoid unnecessarily duplicating details about this man, who is only known to posterity because of a few minutes of music, that it's possible he didn't compose! Perhaps the first sentence of the next Music section could be trimmed a little. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:35, 30 July 2020 (UTC) Fair enough, I've trimmed the first sentence so it takes into account the previous mention

Music

Link Thomas Morley. Linked in previous section The publisher Thomas Morley… - there's no need to describe him here, as it's done in the previous section. Done ...composers like Byrd and Farnbay… - their full names should be given. Done Long live fair Oriana has been criticized… - by whom? Done ... leading to debate over why Ellis would have been permitted to do so as well. - I can’t find this in Fellowes on p. 30. Done – Sentence altered The two madrigals were called ‘Long live faire Oriana’ and ‘Round about her Charret &c.’ when Morley first published them (and also by modern recording companies and authors), so these original titles should be given in the text somewhere. Done – Sentence altered I couldn’t find Harper’s comments about Gibbons in the sources cited. Is there a reference missing? Done – For my edition they are, per comments about google books above Oh wait, I said "Harper" instead of "Harley" (there's another Orlando Gibbons scholar named "John Harper" – but he didn't write anything on Ellis)

Other comments

Ellis Gibbons - Long live faire Oriana (1601), cantus part In the Notes section, you need to replace the incorrect link to St Edward’s with (presumably) St Edward King and Martyr, Cambridge. Done A link exists for Harley's book (here). Unfortunately it has no page numbers, but still worth considering, I think. Done – Sounds good, UK books to the rescue! (google books for the US has a less accessible version) Also, consider adding the link to Scholes, which can be accessed via the Internet Archive (here). Done In the External links section, Free scores by Ellis Gibbons in the Choral Public Domain Library (ChoralWiki) produces little useful information. Add a more useful link, ‘Free scores by Gibbons at the International Music Score Library Project (IMSLP)', linking 'Free Scores by Gibbons' with https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Gibbons,_Ellis, and linking International Music Score Library Project. This link gives access to the original score published by Morley. Done I've added a WikiCommons template to the External links section, as the five parts to his madrigal Long live fair Oriana are now uploaded. The Cantus part (right) would be appropriate to add as an image in the Music section of the article, what do you think? Added it – Good call! I notice in that notes 1 & 2 are given both in the lead section and in the main text. I can't see any reason why they need to be in both places. I'd rather keep both, just for clarity since those terms wards are so extinct. Agreed, but thinking about it, can we double check that 'High Ward' and 'Market Ward' are not simply the names of two streets where he lived. which is what I suspect to be the case? Amitchell125 (talk) 15:49, 30 July 2020 (UTC) I was concerned about this as well and actually brought it up at the reference desk where editors there lead me to the current information. Impressed! Amitchell125 (talk) 07:37, 2 August 2020 (UTC) As Rayner & Rayner is from a journal, this source should be moved to the Journals and articles section. Done More on its way. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:37, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Suggestions (optional!)

Cambridge town centre (Braun and Hogenberg) The image of Cambridge in the 16th century (right) shows "Trinitie Churche" (top middle), High Ward and Market Ward, all of which are mentioned in the article. Note that the map shows that in Gibbons' day, both wards are named streets, which isn't quite what the article says. My guess is that the wards were more administrative (public records and such) and less used by the common people (hence not on the maps – the street names having similar names being similar is just a coincidence I think). I put a link above to the conversation at the reference desk I had about this and those editors seemed convincing... I like the map though, and since I used the Long live faire picture it would make sense to choose a different one (and more relevant) for this section Fellowes, Harley and Kerman all have a few extra details which you might consider adding to the article: Fellowes: Mary Gibbons' maiden name is unknown (p. 14); Her sisters' names were Mary (p. 19) and Thomasine, the eldest (p. 20); there is no evidence he held any musical appointments (p. 30). Harley (1999): Harley, describes Long live fair Oriana as "rather dull" and "unimaginative", and Round about her Chariot as "a more interesting piece", whilst stating his opinion that Gibbons was at best an unpractised composer. Kerman: Gibbons is referred to by Kerman as a "non-entity" (p. 199). I added the maiden name part to a note, and added the lack of evidence for musical appointments. Must of the Harley is already in there but I added Kerman's (snarky) comment.

I'll put the article on hold for a week until 6 August. Please feel free to ask anything regarding the review. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 13:48, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments Amitchell125, thorough as always! I haven't gotten through them all yet, especially some of your suggestions, but I will let you know when I get through them all. Also, I noticed Ceoil had mentioned I take a look at your article at FAC, are you still pursuing this nomination? (some people were pretty harsh about the prose and such)

And thank you for your excellent work so far on this article, Aza24. Still hoping that Edward Daniell can achieve FA, as it seems to be just the prose that needs some more work. Any suggestions from a fresh pair of eyes would be appreciated! Amitchell125 (talk) 15:56, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Amitchell125, I believe I've gotten through everything. Btw – I'll leave some initial comments on your article soon and probably more over the next couple of days.

Aza24, thanks for the above, I see that a couple of outstanding points still remain to be addressed. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:50, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Passing

Passing the article now, and it was a pleasure to review it for you. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:08, 2 August 2020 (UTC)