Talk:Edgar Valdez Villarreal/Archive 1

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To User:BatteryIncluded: There is no "legal-name" rule anywhere in Wikipedia.

Furthermore, the name of this article is only where it is because you made first an unreferenced, undiscussed move to Édgar Váldez Villarreal and then another move to Édgar Valdéz Villarreal. The conjunction of the two moves shows quite clearly that you weren't basing this on any legitimate source of that spelling.

You were also the one who changed the spelling in the article. Once again, that was done with no discussion, no references, cited or otherwise.

There never has been any showing of any use of "Édgar" nor of "Váldez" nor of "Valdéz" in any reliable source.

Furthermore, even if there had been, that would not be determinative of either the naming convention issue nor of the issue of the spelling to be used in the article. Existing reliable sources establish at least a presumption that the proper spelling here is the original name of the article, Edgar Valdez Villarreal, and the spelling originally used in it.

Somehow, whether by design or by accident, the two moves by User:BatteryIncluded have resulted in a redirect with history so the original name cannot be restored without help. A request to do so has been made at WP:RM

Wikipedia:Naming conventions

...

"Articles are normally titled using the most common English-language name of the subject of the article. In determining what this name is, we follow the usage of reliable sources, such as those used as references for the article."

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people)

General Wikipedia Naming Conventions start from easy principles: the name of an article should be "the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things". This boils down to the two central ideas in Wikipedia article naming:

1. "The name that is most generally recognisable"

2. "The name that is unambiguous with the name of other articles

Several general and specific guidelines further specify that article names preferably:

• Do not have additional qualifiers (such as "King", "Saint", "Dr.", "(person)", "(ship)"), except when this is the simplest and most neutral way to deal with disambiguation

• Are in English

The "Are in English" incorporates by reference Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English).

All the cited references use the spellings Edgar and Valdez or the nickname "La Barbie" in references to this person.

Gene Nygaard (talk) 06:49, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Just passing by, but I have to say this probably should have been done in user talk; this is a pretty big lecture and it really doesn't have anything to do with this article's title, per se, only with one user's understanding of why articles should be titled certain ways. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 06:08, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Who says that English language references trump the reliability of those in Spanish with the correct spelling? If you find his legal name in Spanish is offending and that you must change it, then change every intralink directing to this page. While you are at it, please feel free to delete all the offending yet reliable references in Spanish with the correct spelling. By the way, what does Villarreal stands for in English? A rhetoric question that you will certainly ignore and will avoid. Also, you better get started with your anal crusade and anglicize the hundreds of articles in English Wikipedia with with ofending use of accents in its title, such as those listed in each of these links:

• Valdez
• López
• Calderón
• Pérez
• Sánchez
• López
• Fernández
• Hernández

etc. The line between bullshit and rule enforcement seems very selective in your eyes. --BatteryIncluded (talk) 17:53, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

First, please calm down. Histrionics, imputing bad faith motives—the angry tone of your post in general—adds nothing to your argument and only has two effects: to obscure any good points you might make in support of the substance of what you're arguing, and to have people write off you and your post as not worth examination or response, which is the opposite I would hope of what you want. As to the substance:

Who says that English language references trump the reliability of those in Spanish with the correct spelling? This is a strawman question. We are not comparing the reliability of English sources verses Spanish sources. We name article titles by what reliable English language sources commonly use because this is the English Wikipedia. Please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Foreign names and anglicization specifically: "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English usage, e.g., Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard and Göttingen, but Nuremberg, delicatessen, Florence and Johann Wolfgang von Goethe." To translate that quote, when a foreign name is commonly used in English language reliable sources, we use the foreign name. When reliable English language sources present the name differently than foreign sources might, we follow that. In either case it is the use in English language sources, regardless of the language of origin of the title, that is dispositive. Here, overwhelmingly, commonly, reliable English language sources do not use the name with diacritics and thus neither should we. It may be that the first mention of him in the article should have diacritics ("The native spelling of a name should generally be included in the first line of the article" per WP:ENGLISH)), but I have seen no evidence here that this Texan born person's birth name is in fact spelled with diacritics. If it is, add that back, but that is an entirely separate issue.

...then change every intralink directing to this page. Almost all of the links are from the template, {{Mexican Drug War}}, which I have updated. Any others will seamlessly link to this page through the redirect from the foreign name to here so there's no break anywhere. This is a non-issue.

"Also, you better get started with your anal crusade and anglicize the hundreds of articles in English Wikipedia with with [sic] ofending [sic] use of accents in its title, such as those listed in each of these links..." Putting aside the insults, this demand results from your misunderstanding of the policies that Gene Nygaard linked above and I linked on your talk page. As I already said,, we use what English language sources use. These are all examples of pages where the diacritic is used in English Language sources so we properly name these pages here using them. This can be slippery for people so let me provide some examples. Our article on the holiday Yom Kippur is not at "Day of Atonement" because the Hebrew title is the common name used in English. By contrast, Bastille Day is the title because the French, "le quatorze juillet" is not the common title used in English. Germany, not Deutschland; Pancho Villa, not José Doroteo Arango Arámbula and so on.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:32, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

P.S. If you want to take the community's temperature, and argue for the change, you can make a requested move.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:53, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

As I said, you passed the humongous line between bull shit and policy. I developed this page and took the time to select mostly English language references. It does not mean there are no reliable references to his name using accents, his REAL name. The policy is to use the most common name of the person? Millions of Mexican are aware of who is Édgar Valdéz Villarreal, in USA there is only the DEA agents. Live with it. I don't bother with zealots like you provoking edit wars and ANI entertainment. Knock yourself out if you get a rise of it. If a significant number of reasonable people suggest, whether bluntly or politely, that you are being a dick, the odds are good that you are not entirely in the right. WP:DBAD.

--BatteryIncluded (talk) 05:29, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Ah. Thank you for the clarification on your temperament and willingness to engage in thoughtful discussion. I will not waste any more of my time. By the way, you appear to have confused me with Gene Nygaard, but I think it matters little.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:35, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Gene, Fuhghett: This probably should be done as a WP:RM, just so that it's a community discussion, as Battery is clearly too emotionally involved in the issue, at least for now, to discuss constructively.

Battery, it's pretty much impossible to cite WP:DICK without making yourself one in the process, and I have to point out that it is you, not Gene or Fuhghettaboutit who is being told by multiple editors that he's not being civil.

That said, if reliable sources show that Villarreal uses the diacritics, then his article here should, too, regardless whether US-based newspapers or whatever do. Daniel Sánchez (billiards player) isn't at the "Sanchez" spelling, and so on. If we don't have to leave the Latin alphabet to do a name correctly, there's no reason not to do it correctly, all other things being equal, since doing so does not make it a different "name" per "use common names" in WP:NC/WP:NCP, and redirects will work for the versions without the diacritics. (And all other things are not always equal; I make no case pro or con in this instance and have no interest in the article or the dispute; I'm only suggesting that a case surely can be made one way or the other on the sourceable facts, and should be made that way and only that way, and then the issue put to rest on that basis. :-) The problem for BatteryIncluded's stance seems to be that no reliable sources are being cited that use this spelling, yes? — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 06:31, 2 February 2010 (UTC)