Talk:East (European Parliament constituency)

Requested move 10 July 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. SSTflyer 08:34, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

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• East (European Parliament constituency) → East of Ireland (European Parliament constituency)
• North-West (European Parliament constituency) → North-West of Ireland (European Parliament constituency) --Relisting. — JFG ^talk 03:40, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

– To disambiguate from East France (European Parliament constituency), which is known both commonly and officially (see e.g. [1]) as "Est", the French for "East".
The choice of new name is less straightforward. The WP:COMMONNAME and official name of the Irish constituency is "East", so ideally the title would simply add a disambiguator to that. However, since the title is already disambiguated by a standard disambiguator (used for all EuoParl constituencies), that would either break the convention (e.g. East (Irish European Parliament constituency)) or create an ugly pair of parenthesised disambiguators (e.g. East (Ireland) (Irish European Parliament constituency)). So I think it is better to follow the French example and use natural-language disambiguation per WP:NATURALDIS. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:30, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

PS I have just spotted that the same issue applies to North-West (European Parliament constituency), which is ambiguous with North-West France (European Parliament constituency). Since the same issue applies in both cases, it makes sense to discuss both articles together, so I have added North-West to this discussion. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:54, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: I haven't made up my mind on this one yet, but I would like to throw out another potential title we could use: East (European Parliament constituency, Ireland) which would retain the official name without the new for two sets of brackets and avoids the problem of the first world in the bracket being different to the other constituencies. I don't think we're ever going to have a perfect solution to this problem so we just need to find the 'least bad' one. Ebonelm (talk) 15:46, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
  • @Ebonelm: I agree that this is a search for the least worst outcome, so I'm glad you have put another option the table. However, that option involves a complicated compound disambiguator, which is hard for readers to infer. I think that natural language disambiguation is neater. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:47, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose for now, unless there's some evidence that the French constituency is called "East" in English, and/or that "East of Ireland" is in use for the Irish constituency. It seems possible that "East" may be ambiguous, but I'm not finding anything suggesting "East of Ireland" was in use for this topic. If "East" is ambiguous, East (Irish European Parliament constituency) would seem to be the best disambiguator.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:27, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. The proposed name is not the name, and is not used. The French ones are not called East in English either.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:31, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. If disambiguation is needed then it's within the parentheses i.e. (Ireland - European Parliament constituency), not within the main name, East of Ireland is making up a name. Zarcadia (talk) 15:38, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
• Comment. Per WP:NDESC, we can use a descriptive title, provide it is neutral. "East of Ireland" fits that definition. Isn't it better to do that than to use a non-standard disambiguator? Every other EuroParl constituency uses the dab "(European Parliament constituency)", and several others also use descriptive titles -- e.g. North-West France (European Parliament constituency) and East France (European Parliament constituency). Why not stick to the existing recipe?
  Pinging previous contributors: @Ebonelm, Cuchullain, Amakuru, and Zarcadia:. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:02, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

@BrownHairedGirl: Yeah, these are artificial names anyway: the French EU parliament constituencies do not match any administrative, geographical or historical region of France, they were created ad hoc for the EU parliament elections. I suppose that the same thing happened in Ireland, so that the names there also sound artificial to the Irish. In this context, I agree that the disambiguator should remain uniformly "(European Parliament constituency)" and that we can use descriptive titles for the ambiguous constituencies such as East France and East Ireland (or "East of France" and "East of Ireland" if that sounds better) — JFG ^talk 23:46, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, JFG. You are right that these constituencies don't match the administrative, geographical or historical regions of Ireland. The 2009–14 incarnation of North-West (European Parliament constituency) is a particularly hideous construct, both in shape and in socio-economic/cultural diversity.
The pre-2004 constituencies (Connacht–Ulster, Leinster, Munster) followed the boundaries of the provinces of those name. But East, South and North-West were new creations solely for the Euro elections. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:14, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Says a lot about the aloofness of EU bureaucrats, really! I just noticed there's an East of England EP constituency, so I would favour converging to "East of France" and "East of Ireland" names. Wait, there's a South West England too, what shall we do?? — JFG ^talk 00:41, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

It looks like there are problems with a number of these articles. North-West France redirects to the disambiguated title North-West France (European Parliament constituency), which is even more of a problem if "North-West France" isn't actually in use for that constituency. The whole lot of them may need an overhaul.

As far as this article goes, I still don't see the proposal as an improvement. If "East of Ireland" isn't used for this topic, it shouldn't be used. It's not a descriptive title title as the parenthetical (European Parliament constituency) isn't natural or descriptive. A real descriptive title would be something like "East Ireland European Parliament constituency", but that's a whole other can of worms.--Cúchullain ^t/c 04:49, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

• Support as explained in my reply to BrownHairedGirl above. — JFG ^talk 23:46, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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