Talk:Early Norwegian black metal scene

Black Metal Circle

I've added information on the Black Metal Circle from two named references. I've tried to keep it NPOV by not listing media claims of satanism or other theories for why the murders and arsons were committed. anon.

There was no such thing as the Black Metal Inncer Circle, however. It never existed outside of Euronymou's head. All kinds of black metallers have been interviewed denying having any kind of satanist affiliations, and Vikernes has in fact consistently denied that the Black Metal circle ever existed. Wiht your permission, I will try and do some re-writing on this whilst still considering your original article. I will try and add a sectyion about the debate of whether or not it existed. --Nargos 04:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes I do not believe it existed in a "physical" form. There's alot of stuff in this article that makes it seem like it's all facts, but perhaps the article should mention that it is only thought to have existed.

Fantoft church wasn't "burned by arsonists", it was burned by Christian "Varg" Vikernes. I'll change it to say burned by Varg Vikernes. It's a well-known fact. [2.12.2006]

Please do not state something is a well-known fact if in fact it's not. Christian Vikernes was acquited for burning Fantoft stafe church due to lack of evidence. He was however found guilty of four arsons namely Skjold, Åsane, Storetveit churches and Holmenkollen chapel.Egishnugal 22:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

As to the "Black Metal Inner Circle" not existing, that's not true. Aarseth specifically did have this group, and it was an existant fellowship. You musn't rely on Vikerenes, he's a well known liar. But he has admitted to the Fantoft burning and the other churches indirectly. While the Norwegian court may find evidence lacking, there's no doubt he's twisting the facts to suit his ideological needs. [2.12.2006]

Please see WP:NPOV and WP:BOLD. Ley Shade 12:44, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Have removed the nonsense about them being 'arguably a terrorsit group' its POV PreachanStoirm 01:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm adding some references to potential terrorism..... I'll try to keep it as NPOV as possible. Although they only hurt a few people, I think it's safe to regard Black Circle as a minor terrorist group because of the violent basis of their activities (because of Euro and Varg, mainly), especially when compared to a welsh independence group who arsoned properties owned by non-welsh people, and although they wern't known to have hurt anyone, they were officially recognised as a terrorist group. - Dark Prime

Faust and Samoth were convicted based on evidence uncovered (I believe in the possession of Varg) during the Euronymous murder investigation... this is almost definitely fully researchable and is supported by Varg's claims on Burzum.org (under A Burzum Story: Euronymous). I'm aware this isn't proof but I DO find it unlikely that not only would Mayhem and Emperor start independantly burning down churches of historical significance, but that Varg would then independantly keep a list of these crimes. I believe Varg also references Euronymous's "friends" hanging out in the basement of his record store. I don't have anything to back up Dead's involvement though. 25 feb 07

All these rumors really don't help anything, it would be handy if somebody could read norwegian and simply translate the original court rulings which are in public domain..Egishnugal 22:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Sources and citing

Apparently, this is a controversial subject. Recently, the page discussing Dead was edited, and the references to the Black Metal Inner Circle removed. See the talk page of Dead. We seem to have a situation, where people go around adding mentions of the Inner Circle in the articles that discuss prominent Norwegian black metal figures - and other people remove these references.

This seems to result from the fact that some regard the existence of an Inner Circle as a fact, while others see the whole Inner Circle as a baseless rumor. I think that we should try to reach a consensus in this article and then, rely on it to judge if and how the Inner Circle should be mentioned in other articles.

At the moment, this article (Black Metal Inner Circle) seems to be lacking in references. Two books are mentioned, but unfortunately, simply under references without any additional details. I'd like to see more detailed references (ie. page 362 of the book blah blah) when it comes to specific claims like "Notable members of the inner circle included Mayhem vocalist Per Yngve Ohlin (Dead), Varg Vikernes of Burzum, as well as Bård Faust Eithun and Samoth from Emperor.". Without very detailed refencing, it becomes unclear which parts of the article are actually supported by facts - and which parts have been added later by someone who "heard it from somewhere". Tritec 20:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I have never heard of a formal black metal inner circle. It's not in Satan rir Media, Lords of Chaos (book) or on Vikernes' homepage. If this is taken from 'Lucifer Rising', it need to be clarified which statements are taken from that book. Zara1709 16:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Move to: Early Norwegian Black Metal scene

That with the "Black Metal Inner Circle" is just to dubious. I am not going to have any modern occult mythology leak in here, if I can help it. (There is already enough of that on Nazi occultism.) But I think this article should be kept, clarified and linked properly to the relating articles. This way editors would not have to summarize the events in every article on a Norwegian Black metal musician, and we could also merge Helvete in here. The only thing I don't know is whether Black Metal should be capitalized in the name of the new article. Zara1709 03:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

As far as the last part goes, genres aren't capitalized according to the MOS. Dekimasuよ! 12:12, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, the proposal didn't generate a whole lot of interest either way. That said, the page title Early Norwegian black metal scene is unoccupied currently, so I'd say that you're free to move the page yourself if you want; the majority of page moves on Wikipedia are uncontroversial and done without administrator intervention. This appears to be the case here. — TKD::Talk 01:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I was interested, but I was just unsure about what to say. I suppose this is the most appropriate way to settle down any disputes of existence. I should note that Euronymous did say in a swedish radio interview that the Black Circle existed, so it may have at least been an informal fellowship, though one committed to black metal terrorism. - Dark Prime

Please, some citations

The reason why I thought that the move of this article could be controversial is that if effectifly shifted the burden of proof towards those who are of the opinion that there was a Black Metal Inner Circle. This has to be debated in the article, but we need some references. So if you have a (comparitivly) reliable source that most of the members sought to expel and supplant Christianity with alternative ideologies, please add it back in. I am sorry for reverting that late, but I had some things to do in RL. Zara1709 10:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Merge from Helvete

I thought that the merge from Helvete should be unvontroversial. If that article would ever get expanded, I would overlap completly with this article. Zara1709 11:52, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

Obvious to me, this article skews in favor of the black metal scene by use of language, and as a result there are few references. --80.217.188.76 16:38, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I you want, you can try to find reliable sources on this topic in English. The best there is is Satan rir media. Lords of Chaos (book) is half a fascist tract and Luzifer Rising seems to be sensationalist conspiracy theory literature.

Unless someone who speaks Norsk goes to the Oslo and Bergen police, the Oslo court and the Norwegien newspaper and digs through the archives, it will prove impossible to to write a good article on this. Zara1709 11:46, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

You can always put it up for AfD.P4k 16:29, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Now, I have written that it will be impossible to write a good article. Even with all the difficulties with the sources, it should still be possible to write an average article. I would go ahead and write a few more things on Lords of Chaos, but when I tried disentangling the fascist propaganda in that book from the facts the last time, I got an edit war. Otherwise, Satan rir media is a reliable source. On occasion I will watch it another time and see if there is anything more in there, that can be added. If I would have wanted to propose this article for deleletion, I would have done that months ago. Zara1709 19:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Both Lords of Chaos and Lucifer Rising do however constitute reliable sources and if cited properly can be used to improve this article. Both for instance include lengthy direct quotes from the various people involved, and as such author bias is slightly mitigated. For what it's worth, I do not see Lords Of Chaos as 'fascist propaganda' either, but that's neither here nor there. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 16:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

This is about tag cleanup. As all of the tags are more than a year old, there is no current discussion relating to them, and there is a great deal of editing done since the tags were placed, or in some cases it's clear there is a consensus, they will be removed. This is not a judgement of content. If there is cause to re-tag, then that of course may be done, with the necessary posting of a discussion as to why, and what improvements could be made. Better yet, edit the article yourself with the improvements in place. This is only an effort to clean out old tags, and permit them to be updated with current issues if warranted.Jjdon (talk) 22:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

BM Inner Circle and Lords of Chaos

First off, the so-called "Black Metal Inner Circle" did not ever exist. It was purely a media invention, which pretty much everyone in the bm scene there has said. Second, and most importantly: Lords of Chaos does not constitute a reliable source. It has inaccuracies all throughout (take a look at the Lords of Chaos page) and it is a piece of propaganda for white supremacy. Almost everyone in the bm scene has denided this book. Moynihan blatantly lies about crap and makes up quotes from different musicians. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 18:01, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Woah. If you are going to say Moynihan makes up quotes, you had better have a bloody good source. Otherwise that is libellous. If 'almost everyone' in the scene has, um, denided this book, point out where. As almost a side note, having read the book several times, which bits were you suggesting were white supremacist propaganda? A page number and quote'd be handy. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:22, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

If you want: There was another Norwegian right-wing activist with the name Tom Kimmo Eiternets who got into prison for robbery and assault. (He and Vikernes were both defended by the same lawyer no:John Christian Elden.) About him you can read in Lords of Chaos (1998), p. 318: "This Vision of the enemy might predispose him to take his actions one step further from harassing immigrants to Baader Meinhof Style urban guerilla warfare directed at leading power figures." AT LEAST you'd have to say that such a statement displays a lack of distance. Also: There is NO EVIDENCE that somewhere in the Norwegian Black Metal or Right Wing scene some people have the organisational structure or even the intention to pull of a "Baader Meinhof Style urban guerilla warfare". Moynihan is pushing this interpretation into the topic. There are some more quotes like this, you have to read the last three chapters carefully. Although it is altogether possible that the various editions differ here. Zara1709 (talk) 05:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

It looks like we have the same edition, but I'm still not prepared to make the leap from interviewing or reporting on people with racist or far right viewpoints, to saying Moynihan supports these people. My knowledge of the wider far right political situation in Norway is non-existent, so I couldn't comment on the organisational abilities of far right groups. I simply question extreme statements like "Lords of Chaos is white supremacist propaganda". The quote above for instance... in what way does it suggest Moynihan supports such activities? From the context it does not. As for pushing his interpretation onto things, well, yes, it is journalism not a Wikipedia article with NPOV etc, but to call it propaganda you'd have to find some quotes where Moynihan explicitly supports a white supremacist stance. I don't recall any. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:06, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Recent changes

I appreciate the attempts to cleanup this article, but I wished that [[User:Superfopp] was little less reckless. Blockquotes probably look better then inline quote if you only have a few quotes, but there was a reason I had not only added the quote, but also: "Although this is somehow contrary to the image of the black metal scene that Lords of Chaos tries to convey, Bård Faust sticks to his version when Moynihan digs deeper after any "organization"." After the question "What was the Black Circle?", there follow three questions: "Was the idea that it was organized created by the newspaper articles?", "The shop was just a central place...", "How did so much happen without any organization?", and, is I had summarized it: Bård Faust sticks to his version. So, to refer to the previous discussion with User:Blackmetalbaz, the interviews in Lords of Chaos are authentic. it is just that Moynihan has sometimes a tendentious way of asking questions. The ideological content of that book lies 1) in the selection of the cases documented (why does he bring in Lords of Chaos (self-styled teen militia), e.g. ?) and 2) in what Moynihan writes himself, outside the interviews that are printed in the book. I am quite sure that Lords of Chaos claims the existence of the Black Metal Circle, too, but I would have to spent some time searching for a good quote. I don't know if I'll do that any time soon, because I am rather frustrated about some of the recent edits here and at Varg Vikernes. I mean, there is nothing to discuss about Vikernes beliefs: "Varg Vikernes has described his beliefs as Odalism; judging from various text on www.burzum.org it is some form of racist and eugenic Neopaganism." was better than the previous versions; First someone had added that Vikernes beliefs were a mixture of Neopaganism and Nazism, then someone replaced "Nazism" with "Odalism". If you read the texts on burzum.org, you will see that "[racist]] and eugenic Neopaganism" is the accurate description of the content there, although one could get a better quote from there than the one I used. Probably we don't need to include this in this article, because it is not clear whether Vikernes held those believes add the time the arsons were committed, but if we include something about his views, we'd have to say that he is a racist. I know that people who usually don't read books like The Occult Roots of Nazism might find it rather shocking to see what kind of extremists are out there, but if the persons who hold these views are notable, then their views are also notable. Zara1709 (talk) 12:20, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Dead in Helvete

This article states in the "Helvete" section that Dead could found in Helvete which was opened in May-June 1991. It then states in the "Suicide of Per Yngve Ohlin" section that Dead committed suicide in April 1991, before the opening of the shop.. Clearly he could not be dead (literally) and hanging out in the record shop, except maybe in spirit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yesmandroc (talk • contribs) 01:28, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Early Norwegian black metal scene

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Early Norwegian black metal scene's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "sam":

• From Heavy metal subgenres: Dunn, Sam (Director) (2005=08-05). Metal: A Headbanger's Journey (motion picture). Canada: Dunn, Sam. {{cite AV media}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• From Black metal: Dunn, Sam (2005). Metal: A Headbanger's Journey.
• From Thrash metal: Dunn, Sam (2005). Metal: A Headbanger's Journey

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 00:13, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I've sorted it out. ~Asarlaí 00:17, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Mayhem demysteriisdomsathanas.jpg

Mayhem demysteriisdomsathanas.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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This also applies to File:DawnOfTheBlackHearts.jpg.-Andrew c [talk] 12:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Links

Link remove because it's dead

• True Norwegian Black Metal - webzine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.215.240 (talk) 08:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Removed an album, Soulside Journey

I removed Darkthrone’s Soulside Journey album from the list of music releases ... because it is a death metal album, not black metal. Its Wikipeida entry also notes this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.132.124.3 (talk) 11:32, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Reverted another removal by 173.58.149.178 (talk · contribs)

And left a notice on the talk page here. – Ajl^talk 06:10, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Recent summary

I apologise for that, but I think I should explain this. I already addressed the problem on the Euronymous talk page, see Talk:Euronymous#Lies by Vikernes and my last edit. You replied that you were “here to present the info we have in a neutral way, not to engage in childish fanboyism” (which I hope you are not accusing me of; I obviously have a high opinion of Euronymous, but I wouldn’t accept being called a “fanboy”), but when you added the “just an image” accusations to the Euronymous article, you did not add anything contradicting it, although you seem to have Lords of Chaos (Metalion quote) available and someone had already added the Mortiis quote about Euronymous being “such a devil worshipper you wouldn't believe it” to the article about the Norwegian scene. And worse, the phrasing “Varg Vikernes claimed that, in fact, Euronymous was not a Satanist”, as Vikernes is known for his lies and contradictions, especially about Euronymous; I thought this one was coming from you, but I took a look at the version history and saw it was there before you re-wrote the article in autumn 2011.

When you edited the Satanism section of the Black Metal article, you only added that “just an image” stuff, too, and you wrote “Varg” instead of “Vikernes” (you even replaced it here); we don’t use a person’s first name without the rest here since we are not writing about our mates here. To correct that undue weight, I added the quotes mentioned above (which I had added to the Euronymous article, too), and one by the MLO member who might be Jon Nödtveidt. You later shortened the section because you felt it went out of hand.

And now, editing the Norwegian scene article, you mentioned Vikernes and Ruch as though you could quote them like any other person Euronymous had to do with, as though they hadn’t driven to Oslo to murder him and later talked shit about him (in the case of Ruch, even the authors of Lords of Chaos wrote that his two quotes in the book contradict each other; see p. 129: “his comments in the above interview are made questionable with his remark about the murder”). And the authors of Lords of Chaos have obviously taken side against Euronymous (and for Vikernes, e. g. the comment on p. 131: “Øystein’s dishonesty (which friends of Aarseth dismiss as merely the result of ineptitude in business affairs)”), even pretending his comments about Communism were merely a part of an image although he had been in a Communist group; this edit seem to take their statements like facts (“However, many who knew Euronymous say that ‘the extreme Satanic image he projected was, in fact, just that – a projection which bore little resemblance to his real personality’”). If you quote these guys, it is important to show that (and why) their opinions are problematic. And what I had added about Kjetil Manheim meant that he had withdrawn from the scene before the circle arose, so he probably wasn’t around Euronymous as much as when he was Mayhem’s drummer. And by his comments (Pure Fucking Mayhem: “The first time I met him, I got angry; ‘cause […] I’m enjoying life […], he was kind of depressed”), it is obvious he didn’t have the negative world view the others had and disliked Dead who had, so he probably can’t get that people really became as extreme as Euronymous (or he preferred to view him as the one he knew in the old days, or something). The reader might not know the context and therefore not be able to judge these statements.

Or “Although he might have been an influential musician, he's still just one (dead) man whose views weren't shared by anyone else in the scene.” (okay, at least you struck that one through) and “He is also said to have influenced its ideology.”. Euronymous is far more than just a dead man, and there is no question he did influence Black Metal’s ideology.

I guess you understand why I began to question your motifs at this point. --217/83 07:31, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

If you're saying Varg's and Blackthorn's comments should be taken with a pinch of salt, I agree. But the same goes for everyone else. If sumone says sumthing, and others dispute it or it can't be proven, then we shouldn't present it as if its 100% truth. For example, insted of writing "Varg killed Euronymous in self-defense" we should write "Varg claimed he killed Euronymous in self-defense". Likewize, insted of writing "Euronymous worshipped Satan" we should write "Euronymous claimed he worshipped Satan".

However, should we really be telling readers to take their comments with a pinch of salt? If we tell them to take Varg's comments with a pinch of salt we should tell them the same about Euronymous's comments. I don't think we should be doing that, and I don't know if we're even allowed to do that on Wikipedia. I think we should present all the info we hav' in a neutral way, and let the readers make up their own minds. This is what I try to do, but I can only work with the info I've got.

Lastly, I wasn't calling you a fanboy in that edit summary. I was saying that I'm not here to partake in pro-Varg fanboyism. I neither like or mislike Varg and I neither like or mislike Euronymous. I like their music the same amount, and I think it's a shame that Euronymous is no longer alive to make music. ~Asarlaí 02:16, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I wasn’t sure whether you meant you are not “here to partake in pro-Varg fanboyism” or that I was a fanboy, so thanks for clearing that up, too. I don’t mean “telling readers to take their comments with a pinch of salt” as in “warning to the readers” but an explanation in a way presenting information in a neutral way; that would mean that the ideology section shouldn’t e. g. depict Snorre Ruch and Varg Vikernes as normal friends talking about a dead friend, but explain the context which makes their statements questionable (with referenced information of course, like you referenced the statements you added). --217/83 06:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I've re-worded that part slightly; see here and here. What do you think? ~Asarlaí 20:23, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I think that’s an improvement. --217/83 23:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Early Norwegian black metal scene

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Early Norwegian black metal scene's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "soundsofdeath":

• From Euronymous: Sounds of Death magazine (1998): Hellhammer interview
• From De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas: Dan Zimmer: Interview with Hellhammer taken from Sounds Of Death Magazine.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 08:28, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

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