Talk:EST and The Forum in popular culture/Archive 1

The Larry King appearance

I'm not so sure this one fits with the rest. Everything else here is of the form "This [film/TV show] contains [reference to subject] in the following manner", whereas the King episode is of the form "Larry King did a show about the subject". BigHaz - Schreit mich an 11:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• Perhaps, but it does fit into a greater discussion of popular culture, as per what I am (trying) to model this article off of, so that it will (eventually) look something like Nuclear weapons in popular culture. Smee 12:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

List of Article?

Is this a list or an article?

If it is a list, then the name should be changed. If it is an article, then it needs some serious re-writing. Lsi john 01:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

• At the moment, it is a little of both. Smee 02:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC).

Article is about est and The Forum

• The references in the article are about half and half, but there certainly are plenty to "The Forum". I will move this back. Smee 05:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC).
  • So far there are about three references to "The Forum" and four or so to "est", so this article is clearly about both. And as time goes on, there will be more references to "The Forum" in popular culture, and we need not have two separate articles, that's redundant. Smee 05:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC).
    • Actually, I've found some more sources of reputable citations, so I will be adding those to expand the article soon... Smee 05:53, 3 June 2007 (UTC).

Proposed deletion contested

Article was prod tagged on Aug 16th for "nn trivia page". I see more than sufficient references (16 total) to establish notability. The entries are organized, with three books, three films, and five TV entries (many notable in their own right)—every single one with citations and content. Trivia, per se, is not a reason for deletion, and this article is more than just trivia. Even if it were just trivia, some suitable trivia adds flavor to articles, and is part of what people like to find in WP, I believe, as long as it's notable and verifiable. Prod tag removed. — Becksguy 00:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Reformatting

In the process of reformatting the article from a list format, to a more analytical, paragraph format. Cirt 03:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC).

• The formatting part is done, phew, now to find more sources to expand the article, and possibly also more references in other fictional media. Cirt 04:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC).
  • See Wikipedia:"In popular culture" articles for more information. Cirt 18:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC).

"est" came from est: The Steersman Handbook

Here below I have provided the 2 WP:RS sources that back up this information in the article, with the relevant quoted portions of these 2 books and their page numbers. Cirt 05:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC).

Occhiogrosso, Peter, Page 543

• Saladdays (talk · contribs) removed this from the article:

Werner Erhard's self awareness courses were also influenced by a science fiction book he read shortly before forming Erhard Seminars Training, called: est: The Steersman Handbook, Charts of the Coming Decade of Conflict, by L. Clark Stevens. Though "est" is also an abbreviation for Erhard Seminars Training, usage of the term in all-lowercase lettering was borrowed from est: The Steersman Handbook.

Here is the quote from Occhiogrosso's book, from Page 543:

"... Erhard has acknowledged that he borrowed the initials, lowercase and all, from a book by L. Clark Stevens called est: The Steersman's Handbook (where they stand for "electronic social transformation"). ..."

• Occhiogrosso, Peter (September 4, 1997). The Joy of Sects. Image. p. 543. 978-0385425650. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
• Please restore this sourced information. Thanks. Cirt 05:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC).

Larson, Bob, Page 176

This is quoted from Larson's Book of World Religions and Alternative Spirituality from Page 176 :

In the company of friend Bill Thaw, he explored his interest in a succession of Eastern religions and mind-science cults. Finally (according to Thaw), Erhard read a book entitled: est: The Steersman Handbook. The author, L. Clark Stevens, used the abbreviation est to denote: "electronic social transformation." Erhard borrowed the term and redubbed it Erhard Seminars Training - est (always lowercase) for short. While driving his wife's Mustang one day, he experienced a Damascus-road-type enlightenment. Erhard says he "got it," and est became the vehicle for selling "it."

• Larson, Bob (2004). Larson's Book of World Religions and Alternative Spirituality. Tyndale House Publishers, Inc. p. 176. ISBN 084236417X. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

I cannot ever understand removing sourced information from an article if it is backed up by one source that satisfies WP:RS with the page number given, but removing sourced information when it is backed up by two WP:RS sources with the page numbers given? Cirt 05:53, 1 November 2007 (UTC).

Pressman, Steven, Page 40

• Pressman, Steven (1993). Outrageous Betrayal: The Dark Journey of Werner Erhard from est to Exile. New York: St. Martin's Press. p. 289. ISBN 0-312-09296-2. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

Conway, Flo, Jim Siegelman, Page 6

• Conway, Flo (1995). Snapping: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change. Stillpoint Press. pp. Page 6. ISBN 0964765004. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

That is now a total of (4) WP:RS cites that assert Werner Erhard got the name "est" from est: The Steersman Handbook. Cirt 08:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC).

Discussion

We still having that "reading problem" Salad? Arcana imperii Ascendo tuum 01:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I do not know what this is in reference to from your previous interactions with Saladdays (talk · contribs), but on this talk page please try to assume good faith. Cirt 02:01, 2 November 2007 (UTC).

I'm just very familiar with the sources you cited and I assumed he was too, due to his deep fascination with all things Erhard. I'll keep it in mind, though. Thanks! Good luck with your article. Check the punctuation in regards to quotation marks, as the commas and periods go INSIDE them, not outside. Again thanks for your wisdom and good luck. Looks solid so far. Arcana imperii Ascendo tuum 02:20, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip. I will go back and check the commas and periods. Cirt 02:22, 2 November 2007 (UTC).

GA Review

I'm going to put this on GA Hold for a few days. There is at least one formatting problem. Look at reference number 7: something is wrong. The article needs a simple copy edit. Revising of the text is advisable in several places including the first sentence:

Werner Erhard and his self-improvement courses known as "est" or Erhard Seminars Training, and "The Forum" or Werner Erhard and Associates, as well as later incarnation Landmark Education with its course "Landmark Forum", have been referenced in popular culture in various forms of fictional media including literature, film, television and theatre.

Another example is:

In addition to non-fiction influences such as the self-help course Mind Dynamics, cybernetics, the book Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill, Scientology courses and the writings of its founder L. Ron Hubbard, Werner Erhard's self awareness courses were also influenced by a science fiction book he read shortly before forming Erhard Seminars Training, called: est: The Steersman Handbook, Charts of the Coming Decade of Conflict, by L. Clark Stevens.[1][2][3][4]

In general, a thorough copy edit would help the prose. Overall, the article is interesting and seems well sourced. It doesn't need much work to pass GA. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 00:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Addressing some points from above

• Thanks for taking on this GA review. I'll try to address some of these issues, and note them here, below. Cirt (talk) 03:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC).

1.  Done - Reference number 7 is actually multiple sources collapsed within one citation, but I removed a few so that it is smaller.
2.  Done - Split the first sentence into three smaller sentences, for readability and per suggestion by Wassupwestcoast (talk · contribs). On to work on the next one.
3.  Done - Split the next sentence mentioned by Wassupwestcoast (talk · contribs) into two separate sentences, for clarity/readability.

Cirt (talk) 03:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC).

I understand now about ref 7. To me that seems a bit unorthodox. Why not list them all separately? Where a statement is contentious, having a row of sources/citation numbers is like having a stack of books on your desk ...it looks as if you know your stuff. I'd prefer to see ref 7 broken out into individual refs. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 04:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, will do. Cirt (talk) 04:23, 21 November 2007 (UTC).

 Done - Split up sources into separate citations instead of combined, as per suggestion from Wassupwestcoast (talk · contribs). Cirt (talk) 04:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC).

GA Pass

The article could still be copy edited but it meets the GA guidelines. I enjoyed reading it. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 00:19, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks! Cirt (talk) 03:28, 22 November 2007 (UTC).

Removal of highly sourced material is inappropriate

Regarding removal of highly sourced material, multiple entire subsections in fact, by FreedomByDesign (talk · contribs) is highly inappropriate. This article has gone through a WP:GAC review, and was successfully listed as a WP:GA, it has also had a peer review. Please do not remove sourced material from this article. Thanks, Cirt (talk) 04:39, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, removal of large portions of sourced info from this article by FreedomByDesign (talk · contribs) after it has gone through several reviews, without consensus is inappropriate. Please discuss nonconsenus changes of removal of whole subsections of sourced info on the talk page. Thanks, Cirt (talk) 13:15, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Inappropriate external link

I removed a link to someone's personal blog, not appropriate on Wikipedia -- Please see WP:LINKSTOAVOID -- 11. Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority. Also, this blog does not have to do with est and The Forum in popular culture, but rather non-fiction, historical accounts. Cirt (talk) 04:43, 20 April 2008 (UTC)