Talk:Dykyi Sad archaeological site

Name of settlement/city

"Wild Garden"? Some sources.[1][2][3]. Not terribly good, but we need a better name and more information. And a mention of Homer. Doug Weller talk 18:48, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

• Wild Garden is a modern name, as Homer called the settlement City Cimmerian people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.200.248.108 (talk) 07:08, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Homer was writing fiction, we aren't sure when but not at the time of the Trojan War, whatever that was. We have no way of linking this settlement to Homer's statement about a city of the Cimmerians and have no idea what he actually meant by that. So I'm wrong, we shouldn't mention HOmer. Doug Weller talk 12:54, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

• They can tie since according to archaeologists is the only city Cimmerian culture.1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.200.248.108 (talk) 13:33, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
• A more natural translation of the title of the Ukrainian version of this article would be "City of the Cimmerians", but since the archaeological site lies entirely within Mykolaiv I think there's a good case for merging this article there. It's essentially an earlier phase of that city. Joe Roe (talk) 13:46, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
• No, the Cimmerian city there 1250-925 BC. A Mykolaiv was founded in 1789. They are not connected, so should be a separate article. It's like Chersonese and Sevastopol. As for renaming "City of the Cimmerians" I do not mind. This is essentially the exact same name itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.200.248.108 (talk) 14:13, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

The settlement in question seems to have been a port in the same area, so it isn't obvious that we shouldn't merge them. As for Homer, our article on the Cimmerians says "A people named Kimmerior is described Homer's Odyssey (book 11) as living beyond the Oceanus, in a land of fog and darkness, at the edge of the world and the entrance of Hades". Does this site have anything to do with " The main results of the research of Dykyi Sad, a fortified settlement of Bilozerska culture in Mykolayiv, are presented. They covered the western section of a ditch with the remains of a basement of the second bridge and rooms 9 (manufacturing complex)[4]? Ah, yes it does. "The landscape geoimage of archaeological site “Dykyi Sad” (“Wild Garden”) in Mykolayiv. Kulakov V.V. The article defines the notion of geoimage based on humanistic and landscape studies. Cognitive valuable features of humanistic resource potential (HRP) of the ancient cultivated landscapes is outlined with geoimage of Cimmerian city within Mykolayiv."[5]. I can't read the source but the English abstract but that makes it pretty clear. Doug Weller talk 14:47, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Plugging Дикий Сад into Google Trans gives you (Wild Garden) "Dykyi Sad". I think this article should be renamed either Dykyi Sad, Dykyi Sad settlement ("The authors is proposed same reconstructions of the Dykyi Sad settlement")[6], Dykyi Sad archaeological site [7] (The landscape geoimage of archaeological site “Dykyi Sad” (“Wild Garden”) in Mykolayiv) or Dykyi Sad hill fort[8] ("The research of Dykyi Sad hill-fort of Final Bronze Age..."). Also referenced here in the Catalan wiki: ca:Província de Mikolàiv (Poblat cimmeri "Dykyi Sad" (Городище фінальної бронзи «Дикий Сад», "Jardí salvatge"), un poblat cimmeri prop de la ciutat de Mikolàiv descoberta el 1927. Data de la fi de l'edat del Bronze, entre els segles XII i X abans de la nostre era.) Fraenir (talk) 18:49, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

I get zero Google results for Dykyi Sad/Dykyy Sad, though. The WP:COMMONNAME in English, to the extent that there is one, seems to be the translation, Wild Garden. It still doesn't strike me as a very good name, though, since we might want an article on the actual Dykyy Sad park one day (i.e. uk:Дикий_Сад).

If we're not going to merge, perhaps we could switch tack: call the article "City of the Cimmerians" and make it primarily about the city described by Homer, mentioning the site in Mykolaiv as a possible candidate for it? Joe Roe (talk) 19:23, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Sorry @Joe Roe:, but I'm not convinced that's appropriate. Not only am I concerned that Wikipedia might be suggesting that this is a Cimmerian city, I'm not convinced it's the common name in any language. And “Dykyi Sad” definitely shows up in Google, esp. Google Scholar.[9]. Just call it Dykyi Sad archaeological site. Do any archaeological sources suggest it's the place in Homer? If not I don't think we should mention it. Doug Weller talk 19:39, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Found a page with a downloadable link to the published paper in English on this site: THE ‘DYKYI SAD’ FORTIFIED SETTLEMENT AS A UNITING LINK IN THE CONTEXT OF ECONOMIC, POLITICAL AND CULTURAL RELATION OF 1200-1000 BC (THE BALTIC SHORE, THE PONTIC REGION AND THE MEDITERRANEAN). Fraenir (talk) 20:24, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

And it does indeed mention Homer's city. I can't copy paste from my laptop, I need my OCR reader. So I guess we can attribute this claim, but of course we can't state it as fact. Doug Weller talk 20:39, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough, I didn't think to check Google Scholar. I'd endorse Dykyi Sad, then. Joe Roe (talk) 20:40, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Dykyi Sad archaeological site? @Joe Roe and Fraenir:. Doug Weller talk 11:14, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Joe Roe (talk) 11:28, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Yep, seems like the best option. Fraenir (talk) 13:19, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Sources for link to the Cimmerians

I've removed [10] and [11] which don't actually mention the site, they just talk about the Cimmerians and the "City of the Cimmerians" in general. For now I've added a reference (also available in poorly autotranslated English) that does make the link but it's a terrible source. A news item on a travel site that only makes a vague reference to "new research". Do we actually have a good source that claims this is the City of the Cimmerians? Because it's looking increasingly like OR on the part of whoever wrote the Ukrainian article to me...

(Also @Doug Weller: "Walled Garden"? I don't see that in the source.) Joe Roe (talk) 16:38, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

N.B. Neither uk:Дикий Сад or ru:Дикий Сад (the main articles on both the park on the site in their respective wikis) mention Homer's city. Joe Roe (talk) 16:52, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. The new English source says "the settlement in the region's cultural and chronological scheme. The fact that the steppe surrounding the "Dykyi Sad "settlement (at its late stage) belonged to the Cimmerian culture allows its identification with the "city of the Cimmerian people" mentioned by Herodotus. The city dwellers reportedly maintained close economic, cultural and political contacts with the surrounding populations of an­cient Oecumena." But this source seems to be locating the Cimmerians in the Pontic area, and this is contested. "Cozzoli makes a point of stressing the fact that there is no reliable ar chaeological evidence to indicate that the cimmerians were ever at home in the pontian area. Admittedly, archaeologists have attributed remains from a variety of bronze and early ironage cultures to the north of the black sea to the cimmerians, but with no other justification than that ancient writers had placed them there. These archaeological hypotheses arc based on pure guesswork and lack any kind of proof or documenta tion." Furthermore, cozzoli inclines to maintain that it cannot with any degree of certainty be shown that the cimmerians were ever in scythia. Geographical names as given be herodotus, such as "the cimmerian bosphorus" or "the cimmerian country" provide no evidence in favour of their presence there. On the contrary, it cannot be excluded that in these northern pontian areas the greeks found a people akin to the cim merians both with regard to relationship as well as with regard to cus toms, so that they may have named the places according to the cimme rians whom they knew so well after their appearance in asia minor.'"[12] Doug Weller talk 17:03, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

@Joe Roe: "The article is devoted to an archeological monument of the final Bronze era, "Dykyi Sad" ("Wild Garden"), located in the historic centre of the present-day city of Mykolaiv, Ukraine, at the merging point of two rivers, the Southern Bug and the Ingul. In its days (late 1300 - early 900 BC) the fortified settlement occupied the cape of a steep edge of the plateau at the left bank of the Ingul River". Don't you have the source? I can email you a word document if you email me so I have your email address, as I can't send attachments via wikipedia email. I really shouldn't keep copying bits here due to copyright issues. Doug Weller talk 17:39, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

No, sorry, I do have it. I was just being lazy and skimming. Reading it properly now. I assume "Walled Garden" was a typo for "Wild Garden", then? (Just wanted to check.) Joe Roe (talk) 17:48, 13 September 2016 (UTC)