Talk:Dukagjini family
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Seventh-century mention edit
Resolved""The term "Ducagini d'Arbania" is first mentioned in a seventh-century document from Ragusa (Dubrovnik). According to this document, the Ducagini instigated a revolt against Byzantine rule in Bosnia and, in particular, in the city port of Ragusa where they were said to have intervened twice, coming de terra ferma, i.e. overland. They failed and had to submit after the second unsuccessful intervention in Ragusa."" Is "seventh-century" a typo? Are there any complementing sources?--Zoupan 00:48, 7 May 2012 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.
The "Ducagini d'Arbania" mention seems to originate in Athanas Gegaj (1937). Athanas Gegaj (1937). L'Albanie et l'Invasion turque au XVe siècle. Bureaux du Recueil, Bibliothéque de l'Université.Blocked sock:Ajdebre.En effet, d'après la même source, dès; le Vile siècle, les Ducagin « Ducagini d'Arbania », avaient fomenté une révolte en Bosnie, surtout à Raguse, mais j,ls durent se retirer après un échec, infligé par les seigneurs bosniaques (2).
This is particularly dubious, since Bosnia was not mentioned as a geographical region at that time, Ragusa was situated in Dalmatia, and dux Ginius Tanuschus Albanensis was mentioned in 1281.--Zoupan 03:23, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- This is not up to you to resolve, since two scholars (Gegaj and Hammond) talk about it, Zoupan.--MorenaReka (talk) 14:39, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hammond was philologist who specialized in ancient Greece. Work of Gegaj is somewhat outdated work of Albanian historiography, not very reliable when it comes to pre-11th-century Albanians. This exceptional claim requires an exceptional source, or, at least, multiple non-exceptional but more reliable than current. I found one source that mention Dukagjini as region in connection to 7-th century Ragusa:
- Carter, Francis W. (1972). Dubrovnik (Ragusa): A Classic City-state. Seminar Press. p. 48. ISBN 978-0-12-812950-0.
'690. ... of Bosna, because many in Bosna were partisans of Duchagini (an Albanian tribe, Dukadjin, south of Skador), and wished to save themselves ...
- Carter, Francis W. (1972). Dubrovnik (Ragusa): A Classic City-state. Seminar Press. p. 48. ISBN 978-0-12-812950-0.
- I will try to find some more sources about it.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:36, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hammond was philologist who specialized in ancient Greece. Work of Gegaj is somewhat outdated work of Albanian historiography, not very reliable when it comes to pre-11th-century Albanians. This exceptional claim requires an exceptional source, or, at least, multiple non-exceptional but more reliable than current. I found one source that mention Dukagjini as region in connection to 7-th century Ragusa:
- This is not up to you to resolve, since two scholars (Gegaj and Hammond) talk about it, Zoupan.--MorenaReka (talk) 14:39, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
This is not up to you to resolve
, this is exactly up to us, as a community, to resolve. It is dubious. Please be constructive.--Zoupan 19:22, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
I now found:
- Memoirs of the American Folk-lore Society. Vol. 44. American Folk-lore Society. 1954. p. 64 (footnote 1).
Gegaj writes further on this page that, according to the same source (published by Makushev), in the seventh century already the Dukagjini ("Dukagjini dAlbania") had fomented a revolt in Bosnia, particularly in Dubrovnik, but they had to retreat after a defeat, inflicted by the Bosnian lords.
So, this means the story was taken by Gegaj from Vikentii Makushev (1837–1883). I think that without a doubt, this is a folkloric account rather than "evidence" from a "7th-century Ragusan manuscript" as it is portrayed.--Zoupan 19:38, 27 December 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.
- Yeah....no. "Vikentij Makušev (Russian: Макушев, Викентий Васильевич) (1837—1883) was a Russian Slavist and Albanologist.[1] He is best known because of his works about Dubrovnik. Makušev was a professor at University of Warsaw.[3] In Warsaw in 1871 he published his work "Historical researches on the Slavs in Albania in the Middle Ages" in which he presented the result of his research of over three thousand historical documents he studied in archives of Venice, Naples, Palermo, Milan and Ancona.[6] The archival data he collected in archives in Italia is of great importance for the history of south Slavs.[7] Makušev was described as Bulgarophile.[8]" DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 23:44, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
The above source continues: "Indeed, it is in 1281 that Gin Tanusio (ducem Qinium Tanuschum) carries this title for the first time".--Zoupan 00:08, 1 January 2016 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.
Makushev's source is a "14th-century manuscript" (according to him). See Викентий Васильевич Макушев (1867). Изследованiя об исторических памятниках и бытописателях Дубровника. Имп. Ак. наук. pp. 305–.. It is now obvious that this should not be included in the article. The source mentions Bosnian king Radoslavo, Besislavo, etc. and various other stories. It is obviously not used as a source in scholarship, for a good reason I believe.--Zoupan 00:31, 1 January 2016 (UTC)Blocked sock:Ajdebre.
- Zoupan, I really appreciate your efforts, but, to sum it up, are you debunking Gegaj, saying that he falsified Makushev as a source? --MorenaReka (talk) 23:48, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
The section name is "Seventh-century mention", and all that I've commented on relates to one issue, and not generally on Gegaj as a reliable source. Gegaj naively used this story from Makushev's manuscript, what other inaccuracies he had I am unaware of for now. Could you clarify what you mean by "saying that he falsified Makushev as a source"?--Zoupan 03:50, 2 January 2016 (UTC)Blocked sock:Ajdebre.- This is interesting: "this is exactly up to us, as a community, to resolve". It's a shame this only applies when it suits you. With regards to the topic at hand, Noel Malcolm dismisses it because the chronology is completely unreliable according to him. I still believe it deserves a mention, because it's still related to the article (of course followed by Malcolm's take on it). I understood a fair amount of the document because it was in (archaic) Italian, but I'd be even more interested to know what Makushev thought about it.DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 15:57, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
Smashed at RS board.--Zoupan 18:41, 25 April 2016 (UTC)Blocked sock:Ajdebre.
John I de la Roche edit
Was the Duke of Athens John ii the person being referred to in the section explaining an enemy of Albanian rule?
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Inaccurate info edit
@Maleschreiber: You claim that Gjin Tanushi (Ginium Tanuschium) was the family's patriarch. Do you have any reputable non-Albanian sources to back up such a claim? On google search, a person named Ginium Tanuschium doesn't bring up any results. Where do you find your information? I have read Du Cange's work where he lays out the entire Ducagini family tree and the head of the family is shown as Ginus Ducaginus. Petronio's work is even more extensive and should be considered as the primary source. It mentions Iginus Comnenus of the Arianiti Comneni family as the first patriarch, followed by Iginus Ducaginus. Kj1595 (talk) 06:19, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- None of the publications you mentioned are reliable sources and part of modern historiography. They are primary sources written in specific eras by specific authors who were not historians in the modern sense of the term and none of them didn't have access to any of the archival sources which began to be published in the 19th century. Both Du Cange and Petronio simply copied information which already existed and had been published previously. They are not reliable sources in the modern historiographical context. They are sources which can only be cited via modern secondary sources. The original document which mentions Gjin Tanushi (Ducam Ginium Tanuschium Albanensem) was found and published by Milan Šufflay. For more context, read the 2016 paper by Malaj who discusses the first Dukagjini.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:03, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Do you not recognize how shallow that argument is? Where did Sufflay find his source about this so called Ginium Tanuschium? He didn't invent it himself, right? He gathered information from earlier sources which in this case would be considered medieval sources. Who is to say Sufflay's sources are more credible than Du Cange and Petronio?? See, this is why I take displeasure in contributing to history related articles. Kj1595 (talk) 17:47, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Šufflay didn't find it in any older source. He found it in archival, unpublished sources which he published. This is historical research and it has nothing to do with authors like Du Cange or Petronio. You may take "displeasure" but this is how historical research works in a modern academic context since ca. 1920. Works like the one written by Du Cange are not to be read prima facie. You need to understand the historical context, the biography of the author, the sources they used and many other elements in order to understand what Du Cange refers to and how & why the information he writes about is correct or not.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:11, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Kj1595: And I removed the Fojnica version which you added. It is medieval fiction as there's no attestation of the Dukagjini ever using this colour pattern.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:14, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- And those "archival sources" came from where? An earlier medieval source... in Wikipedia, Du Cange is described as a "distinguished historian of the Middle Ages" but you brush it off as if he were a nobody. This is one of the major issues with Wikipedia. It excludes earlier sources under the pretext that they are outdated. But modern historiography is based precisely on these earlier sources. Otherwise we would have no documented history to write about. The whole concept is flawed. Just as using modern naming terminology to describe medieval nobility. If we were to read the pronunciation of the historic family name Ducagini or Ducaginus, it would read as Dukaxhini or Dukaxhinus. Not Dukagjini. The consonant "gj" carries an entirely different phonetic interpretation. One other major issue with this platform is the flattening of heraldic images. Medieval coats of arms need to be shown in their lively hyperrealistic manner. Removing layers of curves, shadows and hues means dissecting essential elements of a family's identity. And we are left with a cartoonish version of history. Kj1595 (talk) 23:09, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- No, they came from actual archives, unlike the statements of Du Cange. Dukagjini is literally just the title Duka (duke) and the name Gjin. It wouldn't be read as "Dukaxhini". You're trying to read an Albanian name via an Italian spelling which is irrelevant. I'll have to ask for an admin to take a look at you edit history if you continue to ignore WP:RS and WP:CONSENSUS.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:37, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Where does an archive about antiquity gather its information? From the manuscripts of early medieval authors, does it not? You cannot refute something that's irrefutable. You are unable to prove that Sufflay's medieval sources are more credible than Du Cange or Petronio. Your only argument is that he found his information from some archive. That's not a strong enough argument but apparently it is shared by the consensus opinion. Strange. In response to the Dukagjini family name, the word Gjin is a modern day "invention". The consonant "gj" or the name Gjin for that matter did not exist prior to the 20th century. In fact, Albanian language before the war was written differently than it is today. The name Lekë was written as Lek. I am not here to undo the work of others and go against established consensus so I'll just go ahead and accept the current status quo. It becomes a burden for other members to "correct" my edits as I wouldn't want others to correct mine. I will apply the changes accordingly to the Armorial article when I have time. Kj1595 (talk) 10:02, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Kj1595: your opinions are WP:original research directly based on WP:primary material that is not supported by WP:secondary scholarship. We are editors of an WP:encyclopaedia, a WP:tertiary source, the content of which is to be based on secondary WP:reliable sources that "provide thought and reflection based on primary sources", as per Wikipedia policy. If information is not explicitly discussed by reliable secondary sources, or if it even contrasts with them, Wikipedia editors should not add their own original research. – Βατο (talk) 11:08, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- Where does an archive about antiquity gather its information? From the manuscripts of early medieval authors, does it not? You cannot refute something that's irrefutable. You are unable to prove that Sufflay's medieval sources are more credible than Du Cange or Petronio. Your only argument is that he found his information from some archive. That's not a strong enough argument but apparently it is shared by the consensus opinion. Strange. In response to the Dukagjini family name, the word Gjin is a modern day "invention". The consonant "gj" or the name Gjin for that matter did not exist prior to the 20th century. In fact, Albanian language before the war was written differently than it is today. The name Lekë was written as Lek. I am not here to undo the work of others and go against established consensus so I'll just go ahead and accept the current status quo. It becomes a burden for other members to "correct" my edits as I wouldn't want others to correct mine. I will apply the changes accordingly to the Armorial article when I have time. Kj1595 (talk) 10:02, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- No, they came from actual archives, unlike the statements of Du Cange. Dukagjini is literally just the title Duka (duke) and the name Gjin. It wouldn't be read as "Dukaxhini". You're trying to read an Albanian name via an Italian spelling which is irrelevant. I'll have to ask for an admin to take a look at you edit history if you continue to ignore WP:RS and WP:CONSENSUS.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:37, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- And those "archival sources" came from where? An earlier medieval source... in Wikipedia, Du Cange is described as a "distinguished historian of the Middle Ages" but you brush it off as if he were a nobody. This is one of the major issues with Wikipedia. It excludes earlier sources under the pretext that they are outdated. But modern historiography is based precisely on these earlier sources. Otherwise we would have no documented history to write about. The whole concept is flawed. Just as using modern naming terminology to describe medieval nobility. If we were to read the pronunciation of the historic family name Ducagini or Ducaginus, it would read as Dukaxhini or Dukaxhinus. Not Dukagjini. The consonant "gj" carries an entirely different phonetic interpretation. One other major issue with this platform is the flattening of heraldic images. Medieval coats of arms need to be shown in their lively hyperrealistic manner. Removing layers of curves, shadows and hues means dissecting essential elements of a family's identity. And we are left with a cartoonish version of history. Kj1595 (talk) 23:09, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Kj1595: And I removed the Fojnica version which you added. It is medieval fiction as there's no attestation of the Dukagjini ever using this colour pattern.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:14, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Šufflay didn't find it in any older source. He found it in archival, unpublished sources which he published. This is historical research and it has nothing to do with authors like Du Cange or Petronio. You may take "displeasure" but this is how historical research works in a modern academic context since ca. 1920. Works like the one written by Du Cange are not to be read prima facie. You need to understand the historical context, the biography of the author, the sources they used and many other elements in order to understand what Du Cange refers to and how & why the information he writes about is correct or not.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:11, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Do you not recognize how shallow that argument is? Where did Sufflay find his source about this so called Ginium Tanuschium? He didn't invent it himself, right? He gathered information from earlier sources which in this case would be considered medieval sources. Who is to say Sufflay's sources are more credible than Du Cange and Petronio?? See, this is why I take displeasure in contributing to history related articles. Kj1595 (talk) 17:47, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Where does an archive about antiquity gather its information? From the manuscripts of early medieval authors, does it not?
Archival source come from institutional archives of specific states or organizations - in this case, Venetian, Ragusan and Angevine archives. They have nothing to do with the works of medieval authors who in general should not be cited beyond the scope of secondary sources which discuss them. Medieval authors didn't have access to archival sources and they wrote their works often based on incorrect information. @Βατο: Kj1595 doesn't understand what is being discussed and it seems that they don't understand what archival sources are or how historiographical research works. The only option will be to ask from admins to apply relevant policies if they ever try to put forward the same edits again.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:22, 29 October 2023 (UTC)